Black
Issues Forum #1426
Town
Hall Meeting Wrap
Holloway:
If you've been following Black Issues Forum this season,
you've heard from your fellow North Carolinians all across
the state. Well tonight you're in for a treat, because
you'll hear from the people behind the scenes, including
my opinion and those on the staff of Black Issues Forum.
Our observations and our opinions, next.
[MUSIC]
Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. This is
our final season episode of the town hall meetings. This
is a wrap-up show, we'd like to call, of the town hall
meetings. Tonight you're going to hear a different viewpoint.
You've seen me hosting the program this season, but you
haven't heard my observations of what I've seen around
this season and going to your communities. You also haven't
heard from the staff of Black Issues Forum on this. So
tonight we're going to give our observations and some
of our opinions on what we've seen on the town hall meetings
throughout the state. Let me say right up front that the
opinions that we will give tonight are not necessarily
those of UNC-TV, but our own individual opinions here
as the staff of Black Issues Forum at UNC-TV.
Also,
would like to introduce to you the staff, but first let
me say three people that were on the staff that were unable
to make it. Alice Fuller is our associate producer, she's
unable to make it, out of town. Mary Johnson, our outreach
manager, unable to make it tonight, she's out of town.
And Maurice Tabler, who's in the hospital, and we're looking
forward to his return, our director for the program. But
the people who are here tonight, let me introduce to you
first, Michael Campbell is engineer here at UNC-TV and
is has engineered most of all of the Black Issues Forum
this season. Michael, thank you for being on the other
side of the camera tonight. Also, Deborah Holt, she's
our producer. Deborah has produced every one of the episodes
of Black Issues Forum this season. She's on the program;
Deborah, thank you for being with us. And last but not
least, not a staffer here, but we thought we'd have you
represented. The face you're seeing right now is Dr. Dudley
Flood, a noted educator, consultant all around that state
of North Carolina and really around the country, and someone
I really personally admire. Dr. Flood is going to facilitate
this discussion tonight. Dr. Flood, I'm going to turn
the program over to you, and we look forward to you facilitating
our discussion tonight.
Flood:
Thank you, Jay. It is a real pleasure to have the opportunity
to turn the tables. Having had the pleasure of having
been interviewed by this staff, really for a period of
year, but particularly in the recent months, now to be
able to ask some of the things which I've heard asked-and
some things which have come up on the previous episodes-to
have them embellished and give their opinions about. Let
me begin by highlighting-there are at least four that
have been really hot issues: political area, the educational
area, the economic area, and then the social area. And
I certainly wouldn't split hairs and try to divide those,
but just to put in context. Could we begin with your perceptions
first of all about the educational area? You might imagine
that would be my bias. One of the issues has been the
presence of the HBCU and the need there for, and your
opinion about its continuing function and the essence
and the need to continue an HBCU as an entity.
Holloway:
Well let me say, we.... Was that to me first?
Flood:
I suppose to you first, Jay.
Holloway:
Let me say that we had four HBCU's host town hall meetings
this season. We also, when we were in Raleigh at NC State,
St. Augustine's college participated and we talked about
that as well. I should also say that I came to UNC-TV
five years ago from an HBCU, St. Augustine's college,
where I managed a radio and TV station there, and I'm
a strong proponent of Historically Black Colleges and
Universities. That's what HBCU stands for, for those who
don't know. And we did ask those questions. Some people
I know, especially in our larger audience, feel that these
institutions are still forms of segregation. I think they
have a place. I think in many instances a lot of our leaders
are products, including me, of these HBCU's. And I should
say, as a personal opinion-Deborah, I hope you don't mind-but
Deborah Holt is also sitting here on my left, our producer
is a product of an HBCU. But I'm proud to say someone
that I hired and that I formerly taught at St. Augustine's
College, and I'm happy to bring her to be a part of this
program.
Flood:
Deborah, would you give us your opinion on this issue?
Holt:
Well I would agree with Jay. HBCU's definitely have a
place, and a lot of people have said that they would prefer
to attend a school where they feel like they're the norm,
and I can speak from experience that when I went to...
in fact, I attended two HBCU's although I graduated from
St. Augustine's College, I also attended Howard University-and
I had come from a predominantly white school situation
and gone to the HBCU's, and I'd say personally that it
was very valuable to me to see like people, to know that
the place where I was learning, I was being evaluated
based on my abilities only, and that race really wasn't
a factor. So I definitely think that they have a place.
I'm a supporter of HBCU's. But I also believe that other
universities and colleges, predominantly white, have something
to offer students of various cultures and ethnic groups
as well, especially as they become more diverse, and that
has been an emphasis that's been expressed by the leadership
of some of the North Carolina schools this season, and
we've discovered that in our town hall series. So there's
definitely something offered by those schools as well.
Flood:
Thank you. Could we hear your opinion, Michael?
Campbell:
Well it's interesting. I had never seen a historically
black college or university in my life until I came to
North Carolina. As someone who's lived all over the United
States, from Texas to Florida, to Midwest to Pennsylvania
to here, there's a large change. I think it's really incredible.
And as someone who's light-skinned, at some of our universities
where I was the absolute minority, it was interesting.
It was very interesting. It was completely different,
it put me in a different perspective, you know. No matter
how you are inside, no matter who you are, I mean whether...
you know, like the Indians when we sometimes would be
down and see the Lumbee Indians, it's amazing when you're
the minority, just the feel that you get from just being
a minority in the room. It was very interesting.
Flood:
Deborah, you raised the issue of diversity. And there
is a thrust within the university system to be inclusive
on all of its campuses. That clearly means then that the
HBCU has to have a thrust to bring in non-minority students.
Would you comment on your perception about that mission,
and how it has a future in the whole scope of what we
do in higher education in the state?
Holt:
Well I know that we wanted to talk about that in the town
hall series this season, and what's really interesting
that we discovered is when we tackle an issue in a city,
we get a lot of very candid remarks, very real remarks
from people when we talk to them on the phone. We place
the call ahead of time, we interview with them, and they
tell us, "Oh yeah, let me tell you about what's going
in Elizabeth City," or, "Let me tell you what's
really happening here in Greenville." But when we
get to the town hall series and we put the camera on,
they kind of modify what they have to say. But as far
as the reality, there is a definite... I'm losing my train
of thought! [LAUGHS] Sorry!
Flood:
There seems to be a reluctance on the part of some persons
that I've talked with, believing that HBCU's might lose
their identity. And having the fear that if indeed that
were to happen, they might stray from their mission, whatever
has been defined their mission, by those persons who have
those fears. Have you heard any sense about people having
that concern?
Holloway:
Yeah. We heard that at Central, we heard it at Elizabeth
City. Fayetteville State in this system has the largest
diversity of white to black ratio; I think their percentage
is in the 20% white population. Probably even up to 30,
I believe. I can't remember exactly. And we heard both
viewpoints. I think what is important to understand is
that I think the alumni want to have a real sense of that
historic sense. And I think that's why the terminology,
Historically Black College and University, because of
the trend to move towards, it will always be historically
a black college or university, but it may move towards.
Now one thing to notice is that the HBCUs have diversified
more than the traditionally white institutions in our
UNC system. But this year, that we noticed, and I put
this towards President Broad when we talked with her in
the Governor's meeting, and some of the other chancellors,
even Chancellor Fox, that this past year something happened
unique in North Carolina that had not happened before.
There were more black students going to the UNC system
schools, but the increase were at the traditionally white
schools, and there was a decrease at the historically
black colleges. So that was real unique this year, and
the historically black colleges are very concerned about
that.
Flood:
All right, let us shift gears toward the economic issue,
because I think there is a correlation really, as you've
observed between the economic issue and who goes where,
and what offerings there are and what opportunities there
are to attend. That certainly has an impact. But there
has been discussion now that there is a disproportionate
amount of unemployment, for example, in the minority community.
We live in an area where the unemployment rate is about
2, 21/2 percent overall, and yet the unemployment rate
in the African-American community is considerable disproportionate
to that. And we also live in a community saturated with
educational opportunities, we just have a proliferation
of higher ed and the community college opportunities,
and yet the educational rate still has the diversity as
well. Given that, how would you assess from what you've
heard the economic impact that might be accruing to the
African-American community specifically and to the minority
community generally, in a time of great prosperity for
the nation?
Holloway:
I'll say two things to start off with. One thing I heard
from - I'm going to take two extremes. From a leadership
point of view outside the black community, and from the
grassroots. We went to Charlotte for the Governor's Race
Initiative, and we heard from Hugh McCall, CEO of NationsBank
and Bank America. And he basically said that he was guilty
of going around the country and talking about this great
economy that we have, this booming South, and realizing
that he's been clouding and getting away from the fact
that in reality, we have this big disparity and these
racial problems in the South, and of economic problems.
And so he realized that we need to do something about
it if our economy in the South is still going to boom.
On the other side, I heard from many of the grassroots
people that have been at these town hall meetings, and
most of our discussions, as Michael and Deborah can confirm,
have been after these town hall meetings. We stayed an
hour, at least, after each town hall meeting talking to
the community people. And one of the things that I saw
was consistent is that - I think Raleigh was the only
one where we had over 200 people. Most of them were about
100 people or less. And what I found is that because of
the lack of large attendance, did not mean that people
weren't interested. But many of the grassroots people
who were either unemployed or underemployed were concerned
about the day-to-day things. They're concerned about these
issues. They tell me they watch this program, but they're
concerned about putting food on the table, taking care
of their kids, earning an income. And they're struggling.
Even though this economy is booming. So yes, we're missing
out a lot. I heard that a lot.
Flood:
I'm going to ask Mike and Deborah to think about a scenario.
If I could cite a personal reference, I served for many
years in the State Department of Education, many of those
as Associate State Superintendent, and had exceptionally
good liaison with everybody in the educational system.
But it was always intriguing to me that my counterparts
would from time to time call and say, "Dudley, I
need a really strong black applicant." Now when they
didn't need a black applicant, I didn't get nearly as
many magnifiers and adjectives. They said we needed somebody
to work. I don't believe them to have been racist. These
are people that I personally know. I believe there has
been the tendency that African-Americans particularly
have needed an over-endorsement for employment, and have
needed to have amazing credential to do normal things.
Just practical, functional things, much like you're doing
here. Did you sense any of that tendency to come through
the discussions as you listened?
Campbell:
Yeah, I would like to speak to some, especially the economic
side. I think one of the things I saw in watching all
these different folks react was - especially some of the
people who were anti-Affirmative Action. I don't know
if you remember the young man from NCCU. And what he was
trying to say was something very important, and that I
think is afterwards-it did not come out in the program,
but afterwards he said, "What I'm trying to say is,
why is race on an application?" And he was hitting
the point was, well why are we... he wasn't saying that
he wanted to erase a program that was trying to help black
people, but why don't we just erase the color lines? Why
are we? And as someone who sits there and shades the different
colors of people's faces, they're all different colors.
You know what I mean? There are people with red faces,
white faces, you know, different shades within their own
face to other... why is it a problem, you know? We talked
earlier when I was younger, I was raised and born in Texas,
and my parents, my father lost his fortune in the 30's
like a lot of people, and I ended up being raised on the
bayou sharing a home with a black family. And I didn't
know prejudice until I was 8 years old going to the state
fair in Florida, when the white kids I was riding with
leaned out the window and started yelling racial obscenities.
And I didn't even know what they meant. You know, and
it's amazing. And coming here, I mean living around the
nation, the North is so much different from the South.
I mean, everybody's different. All races are different
in different environments. And it was so strange coming
here, and in my neighborhood, it was multi-racial and
very... I love my neighborhood. Everybody gets along real
well. And it's because of the economic balance. I feel
that economics, the pressure comes from different people,
if they have a fear of not fitting in. You know what I
mean? If they have a fear within that they're not a normal
or accepted or you know, that that economic barrier stops
them from reaching that equality. So it goes back into
education, it goes back into everything, but there's something
about us-if we're the home of the free and land of the
brave or whatever... land of the free, home of the brave...
then we ought to think seriously about giving true liberty
to all citizens and allowing the- You know, as Dr. King
said, it should be the content of our character. It really
should be, because there are good folks and bad folks
of all different colors. And you know, economics can make
a difference and whether you turn to crime or not, no
matter what color you are. If you're imprisoned by poverty,
you're going to try and get out, you're not going to let
that baby starve. You're going to go out and steal food
if you have to in order to feed that child. So I mean,
this is just straight down to economic base and it must
be balanced out in some way. Some of the people who addressed
it, that's what they were aiming at, even in Winston-Salem.
Holloway:
Michael, I have a tendency to want to interview, but I
know I'm not....[LAUGHS]
Flood:
You may jump in, Jay.
Holloway:
Well have you noticed though, that there's a tendency
for use in the African-American community to be disproportionately
represented in all those areas, just by the nature of
the color of our skin.
Campbell:
Well, it's bound to be true. The history of the United
States is, you know, look at my background. When my family
came here, they were low on the totem pole. The difference
is, it's hard to tell one light-skinned race from another,
as much as it is an African-American or certain heritage.
Arabs the same way. You can tell an Arab usually very
easily, you know, sometimes you can tell a Jewish person
just by typical characteristics, family heritage and so
forth. But with black people, it has permeated and stayed
just because of the darker color of their skin.
Flood:
There is one theory that says that inasmuch as black people
where the only people who came unwillingly to this nation,
that everybody else, no matter what his or her background,
made a distinct decision to come, that that residual has
carried over in the minds of many people, and I'm not
sure that it doesn't perpetrate itself in places where
subliminally we're not even aware that we're still thinking
that if you didn't get here that way... I can remember
a day when I used to hear people say the "back to
Africa" thing, you read about the Marcus Garvey movement,
and I was saying to myself, "What do you mean, 'back
to Africa'? I've never been to Africa!" I have certainly
roots there, much as I suspect you have in Europe and
other places, but I'm vested 350 years here, and this
is where I plan to make my stand. Now that is not to denigrate
anybody who chooses to do that in some other fashion.
It is my choice to make my stand here and try to be a
part of this ongoing enterprise called the American institution
and economy. But you raise another hot-button issue and
you raised the word Affirmative Action. And I know that
you have some opinions; you cannot have gone through all
those sessions and not have left at least with some opinions
about this Affirmative Action issue. Deb, you first.
Holt:
Well, we did hear a lot from college students, university
people, about Affirmative Action. And in fact, President
Molly Broad refers to it as "Affirmative Outreach,"
and we learned about that through the business and education
conference that was held in Charlotte. But of course we
hear from a lot of African American students who support
Affirmative Action, and I think it's still necessary as
long as there is an imbalance in the system, and as long
as there is discrimination-and there is discrimination
in this country-we have to have some sort of vehicle to
try to balance things out. And Affirmative Action is one
of those things, and a lot of people have misunderstood
what the purpose is and how exactly it works. It's not
a matter of finding any old person of color and putting
them in a position when they're not qualified. It's extending
that extra opportunity to that person because there's
so many times when the opportunity is denied and people-I
have white friends and black friends and people of all
different colors and races, and they'll say, "Well
I'm not prejudiced, I don't have that in me," but
I think that by the nature of our society, just living
in this society, especially in American culture, it's
been raised on some prejudicial thinking, and racism has
permeated this culture. And if you live in this country,
you can't help but to have the dust of racism kind of
settle on you. You've got to shake it off every once in
a while with this, with diversity programs and education,
and you have to make that effort to go out and educate
yourself, find out about other people, but it still exists
all around us.
Campbell:
In different forms, too. For me coming from the North,
seeing what prejudice is like there, and then coming South
and I thought it was all gone, I thought I'd landed in
the New World. I thought, and it is true, think about
this. This is a new opportunity, it's like when people
came to America, you've got the old South, but my goodness,
there are so many New Yorkers, Pennsylvanians, and all
these people from Ohio and that living here, that it created
a different atmosphere. I didn't recognize the Old South
prejudice until I went to Winston-Salem, and I went across
that line, from one line to the other. I didn't even know
it was here. You see what I mean? That's how well it's
really hidden, and it's not obvious. You know, I've been
here five years, c'mon.
Holloway:
Something I wanted to say, and I know we've got a few
minutes left here.... As a host I consider that we oughta...
Real quickly though. I've noticed across the state that
many whites are indifferent about these race relations
issues. They will be drawn into it if they have to, but
normally won't speak about it unless they are asked to
or pretty much forced to. And I found that in going around
the state. In terms of Affirmative Action, you know, I
look at it as equitable opportunities for everybody so
that you can enhance the success of our people. We talked
about we've been here for so many years, were brought
here rather, but we need equitable opportunities. And
the last thing, something that my father and I have always
talked about, until things get mixed up-meaning you can't
tell who is who-they'll probably always be messed up.
[LAUGHS]
Flood:
We're headed into our last couple of seconds, so let me
just first of all thank you for your enthusiastic participation.
And while we did not get into the social complement of
what we might have talked about, let me just throw out
this issue of equal status relations. They're still a
pertinent issue among us. When I hear you talk about the
distinctions between the Northerner and the Southerner
interaction, I see that as a comfort level proposition.
Each of us has a comfort level, and the degree to which
your comfort level will accept this discussion, and even
within some Northern audiences-I work all over the country
and I find people wiggling a little bit in their chairs
when I bring certain subjects and certain issues to the
forefront-I try to bring them there with no venom, and
generally then you have less squirming. But even in the
Deep South, in Mississippi, I find an equal amount of
comfort with those people who've been exposed and who
respect the fact that the real key for us is to develop
equal status relations. With that, let me throw it back
to Jay for your final wrap-up.
Holloway:
Thank you so much, Dr. Flood, and I also want to thank
you for watching. Thank you to Deborah and Michael also
for participating. I do want to remind you once again
that the views and opinions expressed tonight are not
those of UNC-TV but those of us participants on this program.
I also want to remind you to please call us at the number
on your screen or visit our web site. The telephone numbers
that will be on your screen that you see now, for more
of your comments. I also want to thank all of the UNC
institutions that participated in the town hall meetings,
all of the communities around those institutions that
supported this program and those of you that watched.
I also want to thank Governor Hunt, the North Carolina
Initiative on Race, as well as the Office of Minority
Affairs at Governor Hunt's office. And I want to say to
you to take care of yourself. Thank you for watching.
Take care of your spirit, your family, your health, your
money, and your community. And the season starts again
next week. If you missed it, you'll get a chance to see
the entire season from now through next October. We'll
start the new season again next October, '99, and we'll
talk more about what we can do in the internal community
to help ourselves and the African-American community.
You have a blessed evening and a good night.
[END]
