Holloway: Public schools in North Carolina are going through a lot of changes. But what about our children? Join us next as we talk about what's working and what's you can do to help. Next on Black Issues Forum.

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Holloway: Good evening, I'm Jay Holloway and this is Black Issues Forum. This is part 7 of a 13-part series. In this evening's program we'll discuss what's going on in the North Carolina public schools. Maybe you've heard of the new ABCs of public education, the recent competency test scores. Well we'll talk about the current reform issues and program and what' working and what's not. And what parents and students can and are doing.

Let me introduce our guests today. I'm excited to have Eddie Davis. He's a member of the State Board of Education. But first and foremost he's a teacher at Hillside High School in Durham, North Carolina. Thank you so much for being with us today.

Davis: Thank you so much for inviting me to be here. Yes I am, I am first and foremost a teacher.

Holloway: Well that makes it even the better to have you to discuss what's happening in our public schools. I think we are really blessed as a state to have you on the Board and as a teacher to bring that insight to the State Board of Education. But as a Board member and as a teacher, we're really delighted to have you.

Davis: Well thank you so much. There are so many things going on in North Carolina in terms of school reform and we really have some terrible challenges in front of us. So a lot of work can be done and a lot of people have to put their shoulders to the road and make sure we bring about some change for the children who are in our schools.

Holloway: And we are really talking about all children. Now this program is specifically Black Issues Forum. And in some of our previous episodes we've talked about when you have a "black problem" sometimes its a special interest; when it's a white child it's a national interest. Jesse Jackson said that. But in this particular case we want to really pinpoint the specifics and tell what the problems really are. What are some of the real problems from where you sit when you look at public scho ols in North Carolina?

Davis: I'm glad you said that, Jay. I think it's very important for people to understand that when we do talk like this we are, in fact, a family is what I often say. If there is one family member who has a cold we need to go in there and make sure that family member gets well as quickly as possible because that cold can impact everyone. I think we generally see that as something we can do. Unfortunately sometimes when there is an issue that impacts African-Americans we don't always get that full-fledged support from the broad-based community. But that's changing and we are proud to know that that is changing.

We have some real challenges. A lot of the kids who are enter school come from poverty. And poverty, in the minds of a lot of people, may be an even bigger issue than race. A lot of the children come from homes where parents - where there might not be two parents. And often people say, "Well, one parent can be just as forceful and just as supportive." And often that is the case. But one person cannot be two people and there are a lot of times there are children who come through without the kind of dual nurturing that they ought to have from both parents.

We are also faced with a lot of the kids coming in from neighborhoods where they see a lot of violence and other kinds of issues that confront them. And for those reasons and many others, often even health issues, often kids when they enter school are not ready to move with the flow. There are some programs that have been very good about trying to catch kids up. Obviously the Governor's Smart Start program and the long history of Head Start are two programs that help kids to be on par, many times, wit h their peers when they enter school.

But often those kids, and many of them disproportionately black kids, come into schools not ready to read and they are behind. And even though teaches sometimes do a great job in trying to catch them up, there always seems to be a gap between their achievement level and the achievement of the mainstream students.

Holloway: I really appreciate that opening statement because it's a good transition of where this whole series has been taking us. We started off talking about race in our first part of the series, the black family, relations within the black community. We moved then from Head Start to Smart Start. And that was our last week's programming. So we are moving right into the K through 12 now. Let's jump right in to some of the specifics of the problem. Because some of these solutions we're goi ng to talk about later in the program.

But the real problem, just recently, in the fall of `96, the State Board and the public schools of North Carolina released some disturbing statistics. And I'd like to bring up some of those graphics and if you could walk us through that I really would appreciate that.

Davis: At our most recent Board meeting there was a discussion about how there are now 13,000 kids who are in the 11th grade who, for one reason or another, have not completed all of the requirements. The graphic that you see up now talks about how at the end of their 8th grade year, this was the percentage that actually had met what we call the competency requirements. That's a test that they take in the 8th grade to determine whether - what their levels are.

As you can see, there are 75% of the white students met those statistics. If you can go back to that 8th grade graphic - they have the 10th grade graphics up here now - here we are - 59% of the Asian students had met those requirements, 46% of the American Indian students, but only 42% of the Hispanic students, but only 36% of the black students had met those requirements at the 8th grade level.

When we switch over to the 10th grade, you see how most of the white students, 98% of those white students have met those requirements. Now they are in the 11th grade now and we're talking about 8th grade requirements. So you would think that they've had several opportunities to take the test.

Holloway: Let me just stop you. You are saying at the end of the 10 grade these percentage of passing, these are passing percentages, are percentage of persons who have passed it at an 8th grade level.

Davis: That's right. This is not 10th grade level material here. We are talking about 8th grade material. So we are really trying to get - hopefully we can get to the point where kids at the end of their 10 grade will be able to do 10th grade work. And many of them do.

But we're talking about basic, the minimal standards here. But 98% of the white students have met those requirements by the time they get through the 10th grade and are now enrolled in the 11th grade., 93% of the Asian students have met those requirements, 65% of the American Indian students, 55% of the Hispanic students, and 54% of the black students, which means that if 54% of them have met it, we are talking about 46% of the students who haven't.

Almost half of the students who are black have not met those 8th grade requirements by the time they get through the 10th grade. And as we were talking earlier, Jay, it's even worse because that does not count the number of students who by the time they should be in the 11th grade, have dropped out of school or have been detained and are now in the 10th or 9th grade.

So those are some very grim statistics and it shows us that we have a lot of work to do for all students but particularly for African-American students here in North Carolina. Those students are on track and if they don't complete those 8th grade requirements by the time they get through the 12th grade they won't receive a diploma. They will receive a certificate indicating that they attended high school. And that's not something that employers will look upon with favor.

Holloway: Let me - I don't want to dwell on that point but I do want to make sure we understand where the problem is so as we move our discussion to the solutions to that problem we understand what we are trying to attack. You are saying that if a student does not get back on track they will just get a certificate. So in other words, they won't continue to fail. They will just get a certificate after a certain point.

Davis: Yeah, they will go through if they can meet those requirements. Now obviously there are some real problems here if a student can go through high school and pass the classes in high school and still cannot meet those 8th grade competencies, you know there are some real problems there. And it really smacks of social promotion. But be that as it may, yes, they will get a certificate of attendance. And we're moving more and more toward trying to make sure kids are able to meet the mass of requirements in technology and other kinds of things for the 21st century. Yet here we have a large pool of students who can't meet the minimal reading and writing and computation skills that are required for the 8th grade level.

So we've got some catching up to do and we've got to do a lot of specific work that will be geared toward those students who need our attention. And as we used the analogy earlier about a sick child in a family, this is not just a black problem. This is a problem that has to be tackled by all of the citizens of North Carolina because if we have a pool of people who aren't going to be contributors to society, then all of us will have to deal with the repercussions of their lives. Either we will continu e to have to provide special services for them or we will be looking over our shoulders all the time, wondering what kind of crime statistics will be created by those statistics in education now.

Holloway: Because we know that follows in terms of economics and poverty and then education not moving its logical expectation. But before we move, and I don't want to dwell but I want to attack this situation. Why do you feel that we have these problems with the disproportionate - the wide gap between these test scores between races?

Davis: Well, I think it goes back to what we were saying initially, that kids come in - many kids come in, and I want to make sure that everybody knows that we're not talking about all black students. Large numbers of black students are doing very well and are out-achieving some other students. But we're talking about a large number of kids who are not. And a lot of it has to do with them coming in, as we talked about, behind, and the frustration level that they feel when they go through schoo l and find that they cannot compete. And what we find many times, by the time they get to about the 4th grade they are track, they are moving and teachers are able to try to catch them up.

But by the time they get to that threshold of the 4th, and we call it the 4th grade syndrome around our place, those kids are then becoming influenced by other things in the communities and many times those things are negative. And we find that students then begin to - their movement to close the gap gets to be less important to them and many times they don't quite have the achievement level. So by the time they continue to move along, their frustration level increases and they find that they cannot co mpete. And many of them become discipline problems and they just feel that frustration and are not able to overcome it.

Holloway: What about the whole idea of the culturally biased tests. Is that an issue still?

Davis: Well, I think in North Carolina we've done a great job in trying to remove that as a real issue. We have a standard course of study and it's outlined. We've talked about the kinds of things that ought to be in that standard course of study. The standard course of study was developed by teachers, many of them are African-American teachers. And we went through a large period of time to try and make sure that those culturally biased issues would be removed. And of course the tests that w e are giving are based on the curriculum. So if it's curriculum-driven and the idea if you spend a year's worth of time in a classroom this is what you should have come out with. And unfortunately a lot of the students are not leaving those classrooms with that material.

Holloway: What we want to move to now is the real nuts and bolts of this program so that this problem will not continue to reoccur. What are some of the things that are going on right now in the public schools to make sure that does not happening.

Davis: Well, a lot of things are happening in pockets of places. Over in Thomasville, over in Davidson County, the school superintendent and the school board and the educators there got together to offer a special summer session, not just a regular summer school, but this was an extension of the school year that was almost required for those students who were doing poorly. And they were able during that period of time to give students this extra kind of effort to make sure that they were able t o achieve better on those tests by the time they end that summer school program than they had during the regular school year.

Many schools are going to what we now call year-round schools. They still have their 180 days but they try to stretch the calendar out over a period of time so that kids don't lose a lot of the material over the summer vacation, as they often do and come into the schools in late August and early September without having the skills that they left with in May and June.

Other people are trying to make sure that there are mentoring programs so that there will be a person who would work with them in the schools to try to support and reinforce the lessons of the teachers. And more and more people are looking at alternative schools for students might not achieve and learn at the way and in the same manner as some other students are doing.

Holloway: So you find that the - would you say that a combination of all those is what it's going to take?

Davis: Well, I think a combination of those and many more things. I mean obviously one of the great things that we could do is make sure that there are jobs out there for people and that we have a crime-free society and we don't have drugs and we don't have early pregnancies. But obviously the schools can't control all of those things. So what we are trying to do is to hopefully form coalitions so that early intervention can be made and, of course, making sure that we do the best job of provid ing curricula and delivering that instruction to the students while they are there.

Now the students and their parents have to meet us halfway. The students have to come in, sit down, be quiet, and get themselves in a mode for learning. I tell me students all the time that when you go into a church or some other religious house you have a certain aura about you, a certain way you just - a certain aura of respect. The classroom needs to have that same kind of aura of respect. You can't have people moving around and doing all kinds of things and expect that learning will go on. And w e are really going to have to get tough and have a no tolerance policy, I believe, and just not allow 2 to 3 to 5% of the students to dictate what the flow of instruction ought to be. We want those 95% of the students, and I believe it's a very high percentage, about 95% of the students who really want to learn and know that their education is their ticket to the future. But sometimes those students will allow that 5% to dictate what goes on in the classroom. And that just cannot be tolerated.

Holloway: What can parents do to help improve that situation and assist our public school teachers and administrators?

Davis: Well one of the things, I think, is that parents have to have more contact with the schools. Two things often are said by educators and other people: two indicators let us know whether or not we have a good school. One is a very, very strong leader, the principal of that school and the educators that he or she is able to bring there to work in that school.

And secondly, and maybe more importantly, is good parental support. Parents are going to have to make sure they follow their students and are involved with their education, that they come to the PTA meetings, that they are involved in making sure that they know what the lessons are and that they reinforce those lessons at home.

And often, many times parents can't always do the work. I know I can't help my own 14-year-old daughter, who is a 9th grader, with her math. But I can create an environment in the home so that she can study that math. I can make sure that she doesn't use that telephone during the time that she should be working on that math. I can make sure that kids don't come by and want her to do things out in the yard or to go to the mall, those kinds of things. I can create an environment. It's almost like lea ding the horse to water. I might not can make you drink but I hope I can make you awful thirsty.

Holloway: Well, I was going to go to another area but you mentioned the math. And I know there's a trend now, not just in North Carolina but around the country, to push a lot of our students towards the math and sciences areas. Have you seen that?

Davis: Yes, and the schools have removed some of what we, I guess, call some of the dumbed down math. You used to be able to have courses that really weren't going to push you very far in the future. We say now that every student should have algebra. And not that algebra is the course that you will use every day in your future life, but algebra is a gatekeeper.

So in North Carolina every single child, unless they have some kind of severe disability, has to pass Algebra I. And we just believe in the technological society that we are going to live in, that has to be a requirement. There is an 8th grade computer skills test that they have to pass. We believe here in North Carolina that you just aren't going to make it if you don't know the computer skills that the world is going to operate on. And those skills are just a foundation because obviously things in technology are changing every day, as we speak right now.

We want to make sure that science and math are emphasized but we want good, old-fashioned English skills there too. We want kids to be able to read, to write, to speak, to listen because those are valuable skills that you have to have if you're going to study history and science and all the other courses that you have. And many frustrations that kids have right now come because they can't read the material.

Holloway: That's coming from the teacher in you now. Mr. Davis is an English teacher.

Davis: I mean you can't study science if you can't read the science textbook. And we've been criticized here at the State Board level for, in the early grades, focusing in on reading and writing and math and not testing - and testing only those things in the early grades. And some of the social studies teachers and the science teachers have said that we don't have the commitment to science and social studies and others. But we just believe very firmly that you cannot study those others unless you read. And you have to read something so some of the reading material can be social studies material. It can be science material. We have to have those basic skills there if kids are gonna be able to graduate from high school with a diploma and that diploma would mean something.

Holloway: Let me move back to-you mentioned part of the problem was the poverty issue. And then we talked about parental involvement. And you mentioned the two issues are the strong principal and then the parental involvement. Now, how can that parent that's in poverty, who's having to work one, two, three jobs, how will they find the time?

Davis: Well, there are some skills, some very basic skills that parents can work with. There is a book out called Megaskills by Dorothy Rich that talks about how parents, even in the homes, when the go to the grocery store, they can ask kids to make sure that they can read the labels on the cans. They can do other kinds of things. Lots of games, fun type activities that parents can deal with. Parents can read to their children even as early as the stages of pregnancy. And certainly reading t them, hearing the written and spoken word is something that's very, very important. That doesn't get around the issue of working parents who are trying to do everything they can to put food on the table, but there just has to be some sacrifices because this is the only chance that we have at educating our children. We only get one shot at it per child, so we have to make some sacrifices. Now, there are all kinds of programs out there in the community that will help and support parents who find themselv es there and I'm encouraging people to take advantage of those programs. JH I think one will occur in December of '96-community-wide initiative. Can you __________?

Davis: Yeah. The state board has just come to the conclusion that we cannot continue to allow these African American students and other students who are not doing well to just sit there and fester. We've got to do some intervention to make sure that there are solutions that are developed so that every student in North Carolina can have a shot at a wonderful life.

There's going to be a summit conference and we haven't firmed up the date yet, but it will be one that will be sponsored by the State Board of Education, and we're hoping to have the governor of the state to actually put his blessings upon it and hopefully be there to help to keynote it, because we want the highest office in the state committed to the achievement of every single child. We want to talk about what things are working in some of the locales and how we can replicate those programs in other p laces. We recognize that there are some schools that have very small populations of African American students and some who have massive numbers, and we've got to make sure that we cover all of those students and make sure that there are ways that we can deal with it. We won't be talking just about black students, we'll be talking about all minority students, because as you saw from the graphic, lots of other student groups are not doing well.

The Hispanic groups are doing better than African Americans, but they're still not doing as well as the highest. And even Asian and white students need to have some of the skills. And we believe firmly that whatever we come up with as solutions that will help Asian and Hispanic and American Indian and black students will also help white students in this state, because there are a lot of them who aren't achieving well.

Holloway: Right.

Davis: And we really want to make the point that every single black student is not doing poorly and every single white student is not doing wonderfully, that there are some students in all groups that need our help.

Holloway: That's correct. In just a couple of minutes, I'm gonna tell our audience how you can contact us to find out more information about these community initiatives from the State Board. And there's another one, there's another initiative that you want to refer to.

Davis: Yeah, I really wanted to talk about a community based program that we're gonna try to have about 25 sites in cities and towns and communities in North Carolina in the last week in January of 1997. We avoided February because people put everything in February because of Black History Month, but we want to use that Sunday to talk about character and values and morals within the black community by having preachers to preach a message that will talk about those things.

And then on Tuesday night of that week, which I think will be the 28th, we want to have community forums where we stop preaching to the children and listen to them, to hear what they have to say in forums where they would be able to come up and offer their opinions to talk about issues that are important to them and to explain to us why they aren't achieving sometimes and what we can do to help them.

On that Wednesday night, we're hoping that we can get every single black parent in this state, or at least in these communities, to go to the schools. Now that will be a massive undertaking because we will have to have the cooperation of the schools to be there, but we're hoping that the schools will see that it's important to them for that to happen.

And then on that Saturday, we're hoping we can talk about economic development issues so that people can see that there's hope. There will be jobs out there available for them if they get this education. So it's all connected there to cut the cycle of poverty that we have and to get people involved in their own lives and in the education of their children.

Holloway: Well, that's so important that you said, and I just hope that this program can help the State Board and other good meaning and good working people out there trying to achieve the same thing can help get that word out. And, so in less than a minute, I'm gonna let our audience know how they can contact us and we can keep them up to date on it. Any concluding comments in about 30 seconds or so?

Davis: Well, I just want to thank you and public television here in North Carolina for having this kind of discussion on an ongoing basis. This is the kind of thing that I'm talking about that will occur. There has to be a dialogue. And often, Jay, we talk about these issues in our own group. Blacks talk about the education issues. Whites talk about it. But we've got to have some open and honest dialogue among ourselves. And even though it may be uncomfortable, we've got to have it for the sake of the children.

Holloway: Well, thank you so much for being there on the State Board and most of all being there at Hillside. And just to our audience, if you've seen our opening graphic, that's Mr. Davis that's teaching the kids there. Thank you so much for being with us once again and I look forward to having you back. And good luck on all those _________.

Davis: Thank you very much.

Holloway: All right. And we certainly want to thank you for watching Black Issues Forum. We hope that you've learned a lot about our public schools in North Carolina and will become more active in making it a better system. Maybe you'll be more involved in your local system, or at least in your child's education.

And for those of you who have been active, I want to say, and I know Mr. Davis does, keep up the good work. We need you. And of course also, we also want to say thanks to those of you who have already been in contact or written to us. And on the screen now you see you can write to us at Black Issues Forum. If not, we'd like to hear from those of you who have not. Give us your suggestions or comments helping to make this program the best it can be. It's here for you. Call us at 919-549-7167.

Once again, Black Issues Forum, P.O. Box 14900, Research Triangle Park, North Carolina, 27709. Thank you so much for watching another issue of Black Issues Forum. Join us next Friday evening at 11 o'clock when we'll discuss your opportunities for learning for a lifetime. I'm Jay Holloway. Have a blessed and peaceful evening. Good night.

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