d to go beyond that and begin to look into the vocational aspect of training and enhancing the lives of young people after they're out of high school for example.

If they don't necessarily want to go to college, then what's going to happen? What's going to happen if they've been incarcerated and come back into the community? What training programs, what vocational programs are there? And that's where we're directing our attention now - housing and development of facilities that can keep people for a certain length of time right in that community and develop them vocationally so that they can then direct their attention toward some career goals and what not.

Holloway: Sounds like you're doing quite a bit there.

Somerfield: It's a lot of work. A lot of times a lack of funding is a problem. Sometimes our ambition exceeds our budget of course because we're sponsored solely by our own church funds. There's no other funds involved right now but I think that once people begin to realize the effectiveness of this concept that others will begin to join in, too.

Holloway: Mr. McKissock, let me ask you - Dr. Somerfield talked about education and the church and empowerment from that point of view. You've been involved in local government for some time now. But I know, and many perhaps in our audience will know, that your father started Soul City several years ago and was probably one of the most visible examples of community empowerment back in the seventies. What happened with that concept and where are we now? Can you talk a little bit about that and then we'll move into government today.

McKissick: Yes. In terms of Soul City, I think the legacy there clearly is political empowerment more so than anything else. If you think back to Soul City back in the early 1970s when the concept was first announced - it was established in Warren County which is one of the poorest counties in the state of North Carolina and had the highest outward migration rate of any county in the state where people were leaving the county, going to urban areas either in North Carolina or really in the northeast for the most part. Well that county had 68% black population and never elected a black elected official.

During the time that Soul City was very active in starting to politically organize people to empower people in that part of our state, you were able to see the first black elected officials go into office in Warren County. You were able to see people like Eva Clayton, who now is serving as the congressperson from the first congressional district, get her roots started right there in Warren County. She served as chairperson to the democratic party as well as myself in that time frame.

People like Frank Ballance, the senator now in the state senate, was based right out of Warren County. People like Harvey Gantt who worked at Soul City. He was one of the key planners there and he just ran for senate here in the state of North Carolina. People like George Williams, who worked there as well, now, at least up until recently, served as a county manger in Durham county until a change of political power there - but political empowerment I think is the legacy of Soul City in terms of provid ing people with the educational opportunities, understanding what it was about to provide individuals an opportunity to improve the quality of life in the communities where they resided. So they didn't have to leave. And a fundamental shift in the political power structure of Warren County and in many instances it had ramifications statewide for many of the people that came through that organization.

Holloway: What's happening there now?

McKissick: Soul City is continuing to grow, continuing to prosper. Of course, the government withdrew its support back in 1979. But they had, before withdrawing their support, built the largest regional water system in the state of North Carolina, drawing in water from Kerr Lake. They had established housing facilities there. There was recently an ________ housing complex that went in there, but the key to Soul City was going to always be the establishment of an employment base. And while th employment base has grown and expanded over the last 15-20 years, certainly not at the pace that we would have anticipated, and certainly not at the pace of the government, it continued its support. But when they withdrew their financial support in 1979, it fell into the hands of the private sector to continue and much of the property, which was once owned by the Soul City company ended up being sold to individuals who, for the most part, have not done as much with it as a development company would have.

Holloway: Let me ask both of you gentlemen - you have just set a question I'd like to ask you.

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Holloway: [Already in progress]. . . but we live under public policy. Let me just throw that concept out to you. And Reverend Jesse Jackson was talking about engagement, that we really need to engage our community in public policy issues but we live under our faith. And he even used an example of the song, Dr. Somerfield, that the battle is not mine, it's the Lord's. That we sing a lot of that but we've still got to go out and do some things, too. Either of you care to comment about that?

Somerfield: I agree and one of the things that really puzzles me more than anything else, I believe, is the lack of economic power that is initiated by the church. For example, in a lot of cases, churches tend to sit in different areas, in different places in the community and there's nothing happening during the day. There's no economy being generated outside of what happens on Sunday.

I think that once the church begins to realize that it is an economic base and that because there are so many people involved in church on a Sunday for example, that there's an opportunity to involve them through the week if you develop programs. One of the things that we've really taken on as a project is to see how many people we could employ within the operation of the church.

For example, we have 52 employees right now that are full-time, they're all paid staff. And we're almost really nobody in the community. But what we've determined is that we're actually going to create a base there where what we generate goes right back into the lives of the people. Then the people can begin to actually realize that through the church, "I'm working, I'm employed, I have income, I pay my bills" and their support in the church makes more sense.

So, I think that when everybody begins to realize that the church is so strong in its ability to reach people that there are more funds put into that particular spectrum and those funds are channeled toward economic development, empowering, even entrepreneurship.

We're thinking about trying to develop a shopping complex where entrepreneurs will be leasing to own spaces and what not so they can have a sense of pride. Then there's a business concept there. There's a financial development concept there that a lot of the black people in the communities that exist now don't understand and that's why there's so much crime.

See, when you don't understand it - you can make money basically because of your own ability and what you've developed as a concept and an idea and you don't have to try to get it from somebody else illegally. Because the self esteem level is so low among the black males, for example, that's why one of the leading causes of death among black males is violent crime inflicted upon each other.

There's no sense of awareness, self awareness and pride. So, when the economic structure of the church begins to direct itself toward developing individuals, to provide jobs, programs that will allow them to start businesses, I think we'll see a lot more peace and I think then we actually are engaged, we're not just preaching and speaking about things but we're actually actively involved in making them happen.

Holloway: What's the government's role in this Mr. McKissock?

McKissick: Well, I think the government's role can be quite significant in terms of community empowerment initiatives. I think the important thing for government to do is to serve as a facilitator; to be one that can provide - and I know in Durham's situation one of the things that we're doing right now - we have a community policing program. We have chief Jackie McNeil who happens to be an African American who heads our police department who has made tremendous outreach efforts into our commun ities. And when I say that - they go out, we have a place called North Central Durham which is where we've had some of the highest incidences of poverty and some of the highest incidences of crime overall. But we have our police officers, going out in the community knowing people on a one-on-one basis, knowing what the needs of the community are.

And not only talking about crime in terms of what they're doing to decrease incidences of crime, but looking at what's going on in terms of the housing stock - identifying where it's dilapidated, sending in inspectors to make sure that the quality of life for people on a day-to-day basis is improved and that it becomes more significant. Getting people empowered so they can articulate their concerns, what their communities needs are - are they recreational? Are they tutoring programs? Are they initiati es that will cause people to get involved in a one-on-one basis? Knowing their neighbors and expanding that network of contacts and communications beyond just the church by going out into the community and pulling together many diverse elements in a way that empowers them to use their minds, their energies and efforts creatively and cohesively to become more active across the board in their community so that they, too, can have their voices listened to. And city government can be responsible for those vo ices, those needs, those concerns that touch the lives of people on a daily basis.

Holloway: Where do the two meet? Government and church. You both are involved in examples of some real community empowerment but Dr. Somerfield, I think you used to be on a director level in the city government in Raleigh.

Somerfield: That's correct.

Holloway: Where do you see - are the church and state still separate when it comes to issues of-

Somerfield: I think that, based upon the concepts of the law and the way things are constitutionalized, there's a separation. I think that in some ways that's good and positive and has its place, but I think programmatically, in order for us all to survive, there's going to have to be a meshing of the two. There are funds that are brought into the municipalities that in some cases never reach the religious sector of the community - funds that actually are very appropriate.

Holloway: For example?

Somerfield: GAT funds. Those funds have to do with community development and empowering the actual community that's being revitalized. For example, that's undergone a lot of duress and stress and deterioration.

Holloway: And so churches aren't able to access that money?

Somerfield: Many times, churches don't know those funds exist. If you were actually to go down to some municipality city government complexes and headquarters, you'd find funds sitting that never actually get to the religious community. Some of the reasons that have been stated have been that, "Well, there's not a qualified entity that can programmatically facilitate the proper usage of the funds. There's not one that identifies with the criteria that is necessary to receive the funds that's c ommunity oriented."

For example, a lot of those funds have to do with facilities that are being developed by churches that operate during the evening hours that generate recreational activities for youth: drama, theater, performing arts, those kinds of things. But there's not a lot of investigating going on.

Most people will say the church in the black community is a Sunday operation, only on Sunday, and there's nothing else happening. Now, if you drive through the black community where most churches are located, that's true. You'll have to probably bang on the door to get in the building. And even then, there's probably nobody there. But there are some ministries that are operating that have a strong economic base that people are at all the time.

McKissick: If I could address that, because in Durham we're doing some interesting things, I might add. And it's somewhat unique in that respect. Because we have our major congregations, our major churches I guess. Your White Rock and your St. Joseph and institutions such as that. But there are also other churches throughout our communities and very active ministers.

And one thing that we've seen done in a very creative way is that those churches have established non-profit corporations. And those non-profit corporations - in one instance, over in the Sherwood Forest area of Durham, they've gone out and they're working with a group that is building affordable housing. And within affordable housing there's going to be a component which is going to be established as a community center. And the church has established a non-profit entity that will operate a day care c enter within a community center and that will also provide an opportunity for community facilities. When I say community facilities, things like meetings rooms for groups to come in. And the church has established a non-profit entity to do that.

In another instance, there's a Reverend Frederick Davis over in Durham who is very active over in the West end area. But recently Durham approved a bond issue and 6.5 million dollars of that bond issue will go toward the renovations of a school there. The school was given to this non-profit entity that was established by the county board of commissioners. It was an old school that had been closed. It will now be renovated. It will serve as a community facility, a place where people can go, where the re will be work shops and they'll be given opportunities to become in involved in programs, opportunities for people to go where there will be a focal point for our community. It won't just be a place where it's sitting there unutilized most of the time. It will become a significant vocal point for the community which will also help to rehabilitate that part of the community.

Holloway: Let's do this. We have just less than ten minutes now. The county commission, I had referenced earlier, actually off camera, in 1968 said that we live in two nations - one black and one white and that we had to do a lot of movement if we wanted to move toward one nation as this country was set up. From your individual points of view, we've talked about the black community, assuming that there's a larger community. Do we still live in that type of nation today where we have two separate societies? Two nations? Or are we moving toward that one nation?

Somerfield: I think that, from what I've seen in Raleigh as a city, I see a tremendous distinction between the attention that's given to the two communities. I think that there's got to be more equity if there's ever going to be a oneness. People are not going to move toward a oneness if they are still offended or still feel as though they've been deprived certain things that are available in other places.

As long as you have your slums and your, I call them shotgun houses. I've seen places in the city where I would literally pray for hours, hours, crying to God to do something so those places would close up and all they were were just, you know, wine bibber habitats, places where winos would get their daily wine, lay on the street, sleep and that kind of thing. I mean I literally prayed some of those places would close. And I know I did, because I saw some results after so many months.

I think that as long as you have the deteriorating factor in the black community, stress level is going to be high, there's going to be a lot of anger, and to move toward a oneness you've got to have some equity, there's going to have to be some attention given to cleaning up certain things that have been left uncleaned up for a long time. More attention given to the economic base and structure of the black community from the white community so that's there's a sense of caring and concern.

People are somewhat bitter, they're somewhat resentful because they don't feel as if they've been treated properly. That's an age old syndrome. And until there's more immediate attention given to that fact, and there's some clear improvements made in those areas, it's going to be hard for that oneness. I feel as though the oneness is the ultimate goal we ought to be reaching toward, but people have to give more attention to the equity and if you don't establish equity, there's not going to be a onenes s.

Holloway: So are you saying that attention needs to come from the larger community, or is the black community in the church community itself empowered to help that oneness?

Somerfield: Well, once we become unified in our voice and once the church begins to expand itself in the community - for example, we right now have a fairly strong voice because we have 52 people working at our church. So therefore those people are economically empowered when they leave that building every two weeks. They have a substantial voice in the community because they're contributing to buying houses and everything else. Once all the churches begin to come together and we set one strong voice and say to the political aspect, "Are you looking at what our needs are? Are you giving as much attention dollar-wise to our community as you are the other communities?"

Holloway: Let's ask Mr. McKissock that.

McKissick: Well, when I think back about the Kerner commission period - I mean the Kerner commission went out and did their studies after the riots broke out across this country back in the late sixties and I think the findings then were very much on point. I think this community has made significant strides forward and this country has made significant strides forward, certainly in terms of racial relations. And there are greater opportunities today for African Americans to participate in that economic mainstream.

But are we there yet? The answer is absolutely no. We haven't achieved that oneness. Do we have a greater degree of mutual respect of races and of differences? I do believe we do. But at the same time, we see persistent attacks today on concepts such as affirmative action because we - I think the vast majority of the American mainstream, many people believe that after 30 years of a very progressive policy and initiatives that all the accomplishments that could have been made have been made, that the re's no need for that sort of thing.

I think we do need to address, on a national basis, that type of mentality where we all continue to appreciate the fact that there are differences that exist, there are not the opportunities for women, for African Americans, for Hispanics, and in some instances for Asians that there are for those who are Anglo Americans. There needs to be a greater significance placed on opportunities for all of those groups and particularly as an African American I can say that we still make less money on the dollar fo r every hour that we work.

Yes, there has to be a concerted effort, yes there must be public policy which remains consistent and dedicated to achieving that equity over time. And, no, we can not ever be relentless. We must be continually vigilant toward accomplishing that equity which we all so desperately seek. Because, yes, as Dr. King once said, when he had his dream he wanted to see little white boys and little black girls standing there together or vice versa as the case may be. We all want to see that. I hope one day wi thin my life we'll all have that equity, but we have a long way to go at this time.

Holloway: What are some examples of solution oriented - in North Carolina right now - of people or organizations that are building bridges as opposed to digging valleys of separations? Either of you.

Somerfield: I think one of the things that's happening now - there's a reconciliation movement in Raleigh and in surrounding areas. Clergy are coming together more. The organizations that are being formed are being formed for the purpose of coming together and uniting from the pulpit perspective to create a oneness in the thinking and the fellowship among all of the clergy. I see a lot of that happening and I think it's good, it's healthy.

There are a lot of meetings taking place that are enhancing the awareness of ourselves to each other as clergy. Our communities are beginning to mesh some there. I think that as that increases, as government gets involved in making more efforts to promote programs that are going to involve people from various aspects of life, whether it be Hispanic - the bilingual programs are going to be very significant I think to continue to promote in the community English as a second language because the Hispanic community is growing. I think when the municipalities begin to realize that they've got to create more opportunities for coming together - the races coming together to work together for common programs.

Now, for example, here's one that I think is very significant. The whole movement of the - what's the housing thing? I used to be real familiar with it. Jimmy Carter started the thing years ago.

McKissick: Habitat for Humanity.

Somerfield: Right.

Holloway: Well let me move. We have just less than a minute left here. What would you like to say about the government's role in some examples of that?

McKissick: Well, I think the government's role has to be to continue to facilitate. And they have to, in many respects, even though there's significant pressure put on local government to keep the tax rates low and to manage our economies in a way that attracts growth and development, we have to be forever mindful of the fact that we have a social responsibility to our community to improve the quality of life for people. And that means providing opportunities for all people. And that means fun ding programs, funding initiatives that will help people on the local level become involved in a much higher and much more significant degree. And more importantly, that enhances opportunities for communication between our races.

Because I look with great encouragement to the election results of this past week or two and I see the vast majority of people that were out there that were not of African American persuasion that were voting for progressive candidates like Harvey Gantt and many other people throughout our community. I know, I believe, that we as local government officials can encourage that sort of understanding of the races and that we must encourage the mutual respect that comes with that. Because it's through that t hat we will see progress made. It is through that that we will see this whole mood of this community and this country grow to accomplish the oneness that we all see.

Holloway: Thank you so much, gentlemen. We have run completely out of time and as Jesse Jackson said and you illustrated, we do live in our faith and under public policy. Thank you. As the Kerner commission stated in 1968, we don't have to be two nations separate and unequal. The alternative will require commitment to a national action - compassionate, massive and sustained. And backed by the resources of the most powerful and richest nation on this earth. It will require every American new attitudes, new understandings and, above all, a new will. We hope this program has opened avenues of thought and discussion. Join us next Friday night when we'll discuss business in the black. I'm Jay Holloway. Good night and have a blest evening.