Holloway: Leadership is an important issue. We'll take a look at where it's come from in the past and where it's likely to come from in the future next on Black Issues Forum.

There are so many issues that divide us, especially those issues that divide us among racial lines. This series has attempted to focus on self-help issues and on the solutions, not always the problem. Who is leading North Carolina's African American community out of the many unique problems we face? Is it the politicians, the grassroots community leaders, or a combination of both? And what about national and international issues that affect us here in North Carolina?

Tonight our guests are Everette Ward who is a member of the Democratic National Committee, and minister Curtis E. Gatewood, President of the Durham NAACP. Thank you both for being with us today. We're distinguished to have both of you on our culmination of a 13 part series in Black Issues Forum.

Ward: Thank you.

Gatewood: Thank you.

Holloway: Leadership is certainly an important issue, and I think the two strands of leadership that you all represent will give us a good cross section to talk about - the political, traditional political approach and the grassroots community civic approach. Jesse Jackson started our series this fall talking about we live in our faith but we live under public policy.

Mr. Gatewood, you probably remember that from your convention, the NAACP national convention that was held in Charlotte. Let me start off and just talk about leadership. First of all, why is it such an important subject to talk about in our African American community? From either of you, first.

Ward: Well, I think without any question, the issues that continually confront the community require leadership. Time and time again, for many of us who have answered the call of leadership, a lot of that has come because we day in and day out see the concerns that face the community, which requires leadership. And I think leadership is a very noble cause. But it says that for those who have chosen that profession or that willingness - accepted that willingness to serve - that we have to addre ss issues regularly and often.

Holloway: You do that, too, I know. Why is it so important to you:

Gatewood: Well, I kind of look at it as an engineer driving a train. If the train is not moving then the passengers are not moving, Depending on which way the train decides to go will determine the leadership to a certain aspect to which way the community decides to go. If the leadership is barely putting their feet on the accelerator, then the community seems to be falling in a way where it's not moving.

So, I think the leadership for the most part can help to determine the pace in which those in the grassroots, those of us who are being oppressed may see change. And that's why, of course, leadership is important. And it's also important that those who are in leadership understand those among the least of us so that they will move at the pace that the least of us are being oppressed, and not move at the pace of those of us who are doing okay.

Holloway: Everett, earlier when we talked off camera, you talked about why it's so important in terms of who defines our leadership in the African American community. Elaborate on that, please.

Ward: Well, I'm a firm believer that leadership comes as a gift from the people. And when you are entrusted with leadership, that is very important. Too often, people try to define or attempt to define the leadership for a community. And I think that is the wrong approach, because if people have no sense of ownership in the process and no sense of ownership in the direction of the leader, then we have a problem. It is very important, I believe, that all people, regardless of those who are ack nowledged as leaders and those who are not, all have a process of some ownership in this process. And too often, we have leadership defined for us.

And I say that if you travel throughout this state and throughout this nation, there are people leading every day in their respective communities and providing the kind of valued leadership that's needed and welcomed in the community. Their names may not appear in the newspaper, or they may not be viewed on a local television show, but they're providing a needed leadership in the community. And those persons have a value in the community and are respected and admired by many.

Holloway: Any comments?

Gatewood: I agree wholeheartedly. Because there are so many heroes and leaders that we do not get a chance to see them express their views to a mass of people. And it's unfortunate sometimes, but also there are some people who lead who do not want to be put "out front" so to speak, but they would like to do their job effectively as brother Ward has said.

Holloway: Well, before we move further, let's define not who the leaders are, but what leadership is. I know there's a Webster's dictionary version, but how do you gentlemen define leadership within the black community?

Gatewood: Well, I define it as someone who would take an issue or a problem within the community, and it doesn't have to be a so-called president of a certain organization and it doesn't have to be a so-called executive director, but a person who would take on an issue and deal with it, come forward with solutions, or even acknowledge that it is an issue. And it is these people who can help to form the direction in which we go as far as addressing certain issues.

A lot of times you will find a lot of us who are considered to be leaders ending up having to follow and go in a different direction than we thought we would be going. So I see a leader as a person who would come out front and tackle an issue whether or not it's in the interest of this consensus or whether it's a popular issue, but a person who is willing to come forward and present this community, or whoever, with solutions that will help to move the people forward.

Holloway: Well, that's certainly, from my observation of how you've developed just in the last few years is what I have noticed. You know, many people say, "Now, where did this Curtis Gatewood come from?" Those in the Triangle area observed you come from almost - not in that lime light - and you emerged. Do you mind sharing you personal story?

Gatewood: Well, what I would say is that often we do define leadership and education all in a way that may not necessarily be the way it should be defined. I would like to hope that I bring hope to those who may be in the community working and getting ready to try to provide solutions to the problem. And if it so happens that that turn comes your way, then you accept it and you move forward with it. But it's not something that you're working toward - receiving a certain title of leadership or alidation from certain people. But, working to try and better the community, and especially people who have been oppressed like African American people for so long. I think our story started - when I came to Durham, we established an organization called the establishment for economic equality, a grassroots organization trying to address issues that deal with this 400 billion dollars that African Americans seem to let just slip through our fingers every year. And what we were trying to do was, number one alarm the community that we have access to a great amount of money. And if we would start thinking, maybe dealing more with each other the way that our neighboring European Americans and Korean Americans, the way they come in and network and keep their resources within their communities - then we may not find ourselves being so vulnerable to racism. I feel like by being unorganized and spending our money, throwing it away, that we become more vulnerable to racism than other people. So, that was the way it started. And by working in the community - we were going to different neighborhoods with the message. Even this time of year - I had a seminar called "Beware of Santa Clause, the World's Biggest Thief." You know, just being creative coming up with different topics.

Ward: Rush Limbaugh even talked about you on his program.

Gatewood: Yeah, that's when I was with the economic equality organization. But, Rush Limbaugh came in when we took it to the next level and did it with the NAACP. And the great thing about being in the NAACP, one of the world's largest, most effective African American organizations - the things that we did on the grassroots level, now we have a different platform. And now it seems like it's just a whole lot of ideas being created when really we were doing it all the time but now we just have m ore access by having a platform through the NAACP.

Holloway: Well, speaking of platform and access, we just came off of the Fall elections, and we know that African Americans upward of 90% supported Harvey Gant for a second time and he still was not elected. Now moving toward our member of the Democratic National Committee, and you were, in the previous election, executive director of the state democratic party. And I remind you once again, Jesse said, "We live in our faith, but we live under public policy." You represent a platform that represents the majority of African Americans nationally and statewide. What platform does that give you, Everett, and our political leadership within a party that we have so long supported? And where are we know with political leadership?

Ward: Well, I think as any institution develops, you're going to have change. And of course, the democratic party is no different than any other political institution. Change is going to come. One of the things I think this past election has shown the people of North Carolina, as well as this country, is that you have to as a candidate and a political party take your issues to the people. And people are going to hold you accountable for the message and for your actions once elected.

So I think that is a legitimate challenge to those of us who have chosen to be active in a political party or a political institution - that you have to be held accountable and that you have to work hard for the support of the people who are entrusting the development of policy and the development of the direction of this country in your hands. So I think it's a challenge that we should accept, but it also says to you that politics of just sending out a postcard and being the nominee of the party is sim ply not enough anymore.

You've got to knock on the doors, you've got to go to the people. Harvey Gant did that both in 1990 and 1996. Unfortunately, he did not win. But I think it was not because he didn't understand the importance of taking his campaign to all the people of North Carolina. And unfortunately another decision was made, but we will continue. Every election starts the day after the election night.

Holloway: Let me bring up an issue that is another tip of an iceberg and we can get on the whole issue of race relations and racism because we've talked about that in this series. California just passed a recent situation on affirmative action that probably will affect other states. Do either of you care to talk about that? And what is North Carolina saying about that and what are we doing to prepare for that?

Ward: Well I think, Jay, there's no question that not only that issue in California, but there are a number of issues across the country that say that as we move into the 21st century, a strategically based plan of action has to be employed as we move into the future. We can no longer attempt to try to respond just simply on election day. You have to work with cam -

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Ward: [Already in progress]-- that persons throughout North Carolina, throughout the country will be very active in the process - political process.

Holloway: Well, speaking of that, one thing that all three of us have in common is that in the fall of 95 we were all at the Million Man March. Did that make a difference in this past election in terms of the turnout, participation of the African American male or the African American community?

Gatewood: I believe it did, and I really believe that the Million Man March has had more positive influence than a lot of people would like to admit. I think by having the brothers come together on that day it helped to generate a spirit of hope that had begun to deteriorate within the African American community and had been on a downward spiral for a very long time. I think that particular movement is what I would call it because I don't think it's necessarily a finished business.

We like to say that it's over, but I think it's a continuation of black men coming to grip with atoning themselves to God spiritually, which we often leave out in this particular day of the movement, the spiritual side of moving forward and the belief that God is in control, not the white man, not anybody else or so-called powerful person, but believing that God has the power it would help us to mobilize and gain the confidence that is necessary to move forward, so I think through the Million Man March n ot only did they take the time to actually register people to vote during that time, but I think it might have also generated some confidence and hope in others who might have just went on to vote without necessarily being there with someone who's saying, "I'm from the Million Man March."

Holloway: Well, Minister Gatewood, I can't let you go further without the idea of the Million Man March certainly has been synonymous with Minister Louis Farrakhan. Many political leaders chose not to come out publicly and support the march; many did. Since we're talking about leadership, what is his role and what comments do you all have about his effect on the leadership of African Americans nationally and even in this state, North Carolina?

Gatewood: Well, again, I think that comes down a question that we had discussed a little earlier. We talked about whether or not there is one leader or two or three leaders or can several people play a major role in the total liberation of oppressed people. And definitely Minister Farrakhan has a role to play, an integral role, I would say because of the fact that he has an ability to mobilize people and generate some excitement inside of - especially black men and you can't discount that.

I don't care what your religion is, you have to acknowledge that fact and obviously he is saying something that registered to the minds of young black men, and I would suggest that those of us who criticize might take a chance to look and find the opportunity and see what exactly is Minister Farrakhan saying that seems to raise up the self-esteem or the hope of black men. If we can't take something from his message, whether we be Baptists, Methodists, or Democrats, Republicans take something from that m essage - the truth from his message or whatever that seems to generate this excitement and apply it in our messages.

Holloway: Well, let me - we have you tagged as Minister Curtis E. Gatewood, but we don't say, but I know that's you're a Christian minister?

Gatewood: That's right.

Holloway: Now, Minister Farrakhan is from the nation of Islam and we could get on a whole other topic - jump in whenever you're ready. I think I heard you speaking to some of your Christian brothers and sisters about the criticism they had of Farrakhan. A lot of the media put the question before many of the attendees that you must have been a supporter or a follower of Louis Farrakhan, but yet does that draw any conflict with your Christian faith?

Gatewood: Well, see the way I look at it is - you know, Jesus used a lot of - he would often make it plain the best he could by using a scenario to kind of help to make his point. If I had to do the same I would say that if I saw a person beating down a young man in the street and especially if that person happened to be me who was being beaten. Am I to get upset if the person who comes and stops the person from beating me to say, "Oh, he's a Muslim so don't let - he shouldn't stop the person f rom whipping me?" Should I question and ask what is his religion? Or should I say, "Thank you brother for coming out and helping me to get from under this whipping that I was taking?"

I'm saying if we have brothers in the community who are Muslims or brothers in the community who are Republicans, Democrats, regardless of what your political or religious beliefs may be if you are coming to help those of us who are being beaten by this whip of oppression, then I say, "Come on brother, I'm with you." And it only makes sense for us to come together to try to alleviate the oppression that --

Holloway: So this is engagement, this is engagement?

Ward: I think you're right and I think Reverend Gatewood is exactly right. We cannot allow as a person who attended the Million Man March we can't allow Revered Farrakhan, Louis Farrakhan, Minister Farrakhan to become the sole issue and the sole purpose of the Million Man March. That was not the issue. There were a host of people who attended that march and who spoke to those of us who were in attendance. From across this country - leaders who were all there with one common interest, and I t hink we've got to understand that when drugs are prevalent in our community and when drugs and alcohol are sold within walking distance of a nursery school in our community and senior citizens can't sit on their front porches any more because of fear and we were faced with an issue like that in Raleigh.

It requires all men and all women to address that issue regardless of political affiliation, church affiliations, religious affiliations. You've got to get in there and make that difference and stand up and go door to door and work with people and try to really address issues that are confronting the community. So we can't allow the media or political leaders to try to make the Million Man March less than what it was because they are uncomfortable with Louis Farrakhan as the convener of that march.

Holloway: Enough said. Let's move on. It seems that when we talk about the whole race relations issue and racism that leadership has to come forth and help our people to deal with the whole issue of oppression, the issues of racism. We're in an age right now where we see the Texaco issue on a national basis, the ________ situation, the O.J. Simpson trial back up and there are a lot of similarities but race is the commonality. What do you have to say? We have really just less than four minute s now.

Ward: Well, I think more importantly it says that there continues to be issues that must be addressed in this country and we have to take a proactive strategic method in dealing with it. We cannot sit back and watch issues such as these that are race based plague this country without taking a proactive response. And I'm hoping that people will continue to be active across the country and continue to be active in North Carolina. I think there is a group - I know there is a group called Sweet Honey on the Rock and there's a song called Ella's Story and one of the lyrics says, "We who believe in freedom cannot rest." And that is something that we've got to understand that every day there is a challenge and every day you get up you must address that challenge.

Holloway: What's your strategy in confronting racism and oppression?

Gatewood: Well, I think we are going to have to go in a different direction. It seems as if for the last 35 years we had - we tried to make people love us, make people accept us, and make people accept us and validate us, but since we see that racism continues to exist we must now realize that there are other problems that we must address that deals with African American people.

For example the issue of self-hatred and the issue of psychologically being in bondage as a result of generations and generations of degradation and racism. We must now lift ourselves up where we are and make young black men realize that they are some - you are somebody, you are to love yourself. The Bible says, "Love thy neighbor as thyself." You can't love your neighbor without first loving yourself. So it's about now helping us as a people to begin to love black people. We've been taught to love everybody else, but now we must learn to love ourselves. And once we can do this we can deal with another issue and that issue is love for black people that we not be as vulnerable to Texaco and corporations such as that because we would have helped ourselves to such an extent that even when they do show their racism we're not dependent on them but we can mobilize and love and build within our own community.

Holloway: A quick final commentary before we close.

Ward: Well, I'd just like to say that we've got to be proactive and it's got to be strategically based. And when the problems of the Texacos of the nation raise their heads, we're going to deal with it effectively and immediately.

Holloway: Well, thank you both for the leadership that you have shown throughout the years and we're all roughly the same generation and we all have a call to continue that on into this next century. Thank you Everette Ward and Minister Curtis Gatewood. And thank you for watching the program tonight and for watching this series each week at the same time. We hope that you've been motivated to help our state and your community to live more in harmony with each other. And to engage yourself wit h issues of public policy and of your faith in your community.

The resources are available for each of us to improve ourselves and our community. This has been the final episode of this special 13 part series of Black Issues Forum. Please contact us and get a copy of the entire series and use them as discussion guides in your community, civic groups, classrooms, or church. And don't forget to join us on the World Wide Web for additional information and discussions on issues of concern to the African American community. And thank you to those of you who have cont acted us as well. Please have a blessed evening and a good night.