Jay Holloway:
Coming up we'll talk with two gentlemen with opposing view points about race relations in North Carolina, next on Black Issues Forum. [MUSIC]

Jay Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. Tonight we have two guests who have come to discuss what, on most occasions, is a difficult topic to discuss: race relations. Especially honest and intelligent discussions across racial lines. Tonight we welcome a UNC-TV viewer and supporter who called in during our Festival '97, our fundraising drive here to inquire about contributor funds supporting this program, Black Issues Forum, and not supporting similar programs to disc uss white issues. He also feels that this program title is perhaps divisive. We spoke about that matter and I invited him to appear on our program to share his views and to discuss issues of concern to African Americans. And I promised him that we would have an honest and intelligent conversation. Jack Davis, welcome to Black Issues Forum.

Jack Davis:
Thank you, sir.

Jay Holloway:
All right. And, of course, I also invited Milton Jordan to return to this program series, this time as a guest to discuss the issues with Mr. Davis. Milton, welcome back to Black Issues Forum.

Jack Davis:
Well thank you Jay, always glad to be here.

Jay Holloway:
Well, let's jump right into how this program came about. In our introduction, I said how it came about. Milton has been a supporter of this program over the years, so he knows about the program. Jack, you called in. Why do you feel that a program like this is perhaps divisive and why we may not really need to have a program like this.

Jack Davis:
Well, if I understand what is trying to be attained in this day and time, it's better race relations, it's also better understanding of one race for another, all of them inclusive. And what I am seeing is I'm seeing divisive that's constantly being created by means of programs such as this. You know, whites have issues, too, and this just says "Black Issues Forum," well whites have issues as well. There are other things such as the Miss Black America Pageant. There are magazines that are directed totally to black issues and I'm sure Milton will come up with some exceptions that I'm going to say, but I can't think of anything that is directly specifically for whites in the same genre as some of the things for blacks.

Jay Holloway:
Milton, can you think of some?

Milton Jordan:
Yeah. The United States. Let me make a couple of comments. Number one, as you know Jay, I don't buy race. I rejected it some years ago. But the problem here is more a problem of perception than a problem of substance. Let's take a program on this station called Austin City Limits. What is it about? Either of you. What is Austin City Limits about?

Jay Holloway:
Country music.

Jack Davis:
The premise would seem to be country music.

Milton Jordan:
But now, is there anything inherent in the title Austin City Limits to tell you that?

Jack Davis:
Well, if folks have the knowledge that they, or supposing one would have, Austin, Texas is one of the home bases for country music.

Milton Jordan:
But that wasn't my question. My question was, is there anything in the word "Austin," in the word "City" and in the word "Limits" to lead you to that conclusion?

Jack Davis:
That's what I thought I just answered. Just like you would say "Nashville City Limits."

Milton Jordan:
The point is, that is based upon a condition. If a Martian saw Austin City Limits, the Martian would not arrive at the same conclusion because he's not been conditioned to it. Now, by the same token, "Black Issues Forum" does not by definition carry any connotation anymore than "Austin City Limits" does. Any reaction that one might have is a reaction conditioned. Because if the same Martian saw - essentially using all three words, "Austin City Limits," "Black Issues Forum," there would be nothing inherent in the words themselves to create any particular picture.

Jay Holloway:
Jack, you're shaking your head.

Jack Davis:
I don't agree with that. I think that if he wanted to make the same argument and use the word "Human" issues forum, I'd have to agree with that.

Milton Jordan:
But see my point, Jack, is with the conditioned response as opposed to the content of the word. We have been conditioned in this society, and it's very difficult for us and this is why this discussion become difficult among people, is to back away and understand the difference between a conditioned response and truth. Black, by definition, means a condition from which light will not escape. So there is absolutely nothing in the term black to imply pro anything, anti anything , excluding anything etc, etc. But let me deal with the other concept. In media, for the last 100 years, the primary marketing concept has been targeting markets. Austin City Limits targets. It is not a program designed for those viewers who prefer classical music. The Mill Right Shop targets -

Jay Holloway:
Wood Right Shop.

Jack Davis:
I mean the Wood Right Shop, targets. It is not designed for me. I don't do anything with wood, I don't work with my hands. So that program is simply not targeted to me as a segment of the overall audience of a state-wide television system.

Jay Holloway:
Jack, would you accept that?

Jack Davis:
I would accept it, except for the context that it's being used in here. This context here. And I think you would agree with me, but I don't know, but the context that this is being used in here refers to blacks as a race and the issues that pertain to them as a person of the black race.

Milton Jordan:
No. Jack, if you watch this program - I've been affiliated with this program, this program is now in it's twelfth year. I've been affiliated with this program for probably nine of those years. I have written probably half of the background research for most of the shows. Let's go back to the history. Dr. Pomelgrand Vandergrift, who started the program, started it on the premise that there was a large market out there that this station was not reaching on a state-wide basis . His fundamental argument was that a good part of that market contributed to the station either in directly vis-a-vis taxes, or directly with contributions and pledges.

Jack Davis:
Let me understand. When you say "a market that it's not reaching" do you mean this program specifically?

Milton Jordan:
No, no, no. That the Center did not, prior to Dr. Vandergrift coming up with the idea of this program, in his judgment, this station did not serve all of its market in a targeted way, in the way that it served other market segments. So he went to the management here and said, "Let's do a program that does that." Now, there were several approaches he could have used. He could have come up with something for children, he could have come up with something for dance or whatever the case may be. Dr. Vandergrift, because of his personality, decided that if I'm going to get 30 minutes of time, I need to use it as wisely as I can and so I want to look at issues that affect people and seem to, from the research, affect certain people disproportionately. Now that was the thinking that produced the program. For ten years, this was a kind of forum discussion. It was just discussion. The problem, though, was that the program gained some identity. Now, when two years ago we made a proposal to restructure the program, to make it as we now describe it a "though provoking program that encourages you to think and focus on solutions." If you go read our advertising, our promotion, that's what we say about this show. And we proposed to call it something differently, i.e., on of the examples was "Our New Day Begun." However, there are three important issues in television: ratings, ratings, and ratings. And the management decided, and it doesn't matter if I agree or not, but the management decided that since the program with this title has already an audience, has already an historical identity, it would be unwise to lose that advantage in changing the content and the name at the same time. That that was too much for the audience. Now, that's a decision that management has to make because management has to manage the success and the life and the welfare of this organization.

Jay Holloway:
Let's do something because we don't have a lot of time and I do want us to talk about the issues as to why this program exists today and why there's not a white issues program. You've been shifting in your seat. You want to make some comments before we do that?

Jack Davis:
I don't know that I - when you gave your intro, you said opposite sides of the issue. I don't know that we're at such opposite sides of the issue. What I am really interested in, I'm interested in no boundaries as far as race is concerned, I think that regardless of your color, you should be treated the same. What, to me, determines how you're treated or how you should be treated is your attitude, your actions, your interaction with others, and has nothing to do with color. An d this program to me, the reason I took offense is because the whites that I know, myself included, have problems just like the blacks. And I just -

Milton Jordan:
And the point is, Jack, is that there's nothing inherent in that title. Let's look at what we've discussed. Last year the first program was on policy issues. "We live in our faith, we live under public policy." There was no distinction made in that program that said only blacks live under public policy. We did a program on networking. There was nothing in that program that said anything about whites not being welcome. One of the things that we've been careful to do on this show is to say, "Yes, we have targeted an audience just as every other program on this station targets an audience." But this program is no more exclusive than Sesame Street.

Jay Holloway:
Well let's do this - I think we can buy into the fact that the Center is doing this program, it's my responsibility as a member of management team to do this and the center has made that decision. But we have made that decision and I will concur with what most of Milton has said. But you raise the point that you may not be that far away from Milton's view point because you think that we should all look at treating each other equally. But, yet you think this is not working towards it. What do we need to do as a society? Let's move now to just a discussion of the race relations in North Carolina right now because obviously if there were not a problem, we wouldn't have the need for this discussion right now on this program. Would you agree with that?

Jack Davis:
Yes, I would. What we need to do as a society, well I don't know if this is going to be allowed to be said or not, but I think what we really need to do is to believe in God. I believe that is the most important thing. I believe if we have a common God then we can eventually arrive to a common goal. And I think what is creating division is that - let me say this real quick. Let me just digress a little bit. What's happening is that we are a religious society and religion, wh ether most people realize it or not, is not something people should desire. What religion is is a means by which men control other men. That's what religion is. And also, religion was created by man for man's purpose. Now to me, I hate religion, but I am all for salvation. Salvation was created by God. I'm not trying to get all up on a pulpit here, but this is the type of thing - you asked me and I'm trying to answer it to the best of my ability. This is what it's going to take for people to come together as one, and that's to believe in the same God the way God intended for us to believe in him.

Milton Jordan:
Let me give you very practical points to pick up back on that. First of all, I think we have to face the fact that the concept of race is absurd. Human beings are unique. Every human being is utterly unique. For someone to want to demote themselves to being merely superior, from being unique, is to me utterly absurd.

Jack Davis:
See, I'd agree with that. We're not at odds on that.

Milton Jordan:
Now, even more absurd, because to be superior you must have a built-in group or standard of measurement in order to create the concept of superiority. Well it's even more absurd for the group of people who are unique to accept that programming. That doesn't make any sense either. Now, so just accept the absurdity of the concept. That's the first thing. It doesn't make any sense. Second thing is to learn the concept of efficacy, that I am equal to every challenge. That because I am created and because God doesn't make junk. I mean, it doesn't make sense because, this is what race is - race says that somehow there are some people who are junk.

Jack Davis:
Secondary citizens.

Milton Jordan:
God doesn't make junk. So if I can simply accept the fact that I am efficacious, that I am equal to any challenge. Third step, go through our hearts and minds and begin to understand and live by the concepts of truth rather than by all the lies that have been fed to us from the cradle. From the time you breathe, somebody was programming a lie into your mind.

Jay Holloway:
Let me interrupt you.

Jack Davis:
And that's what religion does, too. Religion does that same thing.

Milton Jordan:
Sure it does.

Jay Holloway:
Programs these things.

Jack Davis:
Yes.

Jay Holloway:
Well we still live in a society where Sunday morning is the most segregated time in America and in North Carolina.

Jack Davis:
Um-hmmm.

Milton Jordan:
Well what that takes is for some individual, see because the solution comes from relationships, not from study and not from research or anything of this sort. It comes from building relationships with each other. And what it's going to take is something that I do - I walked in this past Sunday morning into a "white church." And somebody says, "Well, are you a member here?" And I said, "Well, I'm a Christian and this a church right? Well, this is my father's house." So, wh at do you mean I'm not accepted in my father's house? This is ridiculous. So it take that kind of spirit-centered boldness. Now I'm going back next Sunday and I'm going to the Sunday school and we're gonna sit down and discuss some things. But I'm going to build relationships with these people.

Jack Davis:
To the same church, you mean.

Milton Jordan:
Yes. I'm going to build relationships. And that's where the solution comes from. The solution comes from building relationships. If we would learn to do that, what we would learn is that what we call "differences" are powerful variables that define uniqueness. And they shouldn't be considered divisive. They are when blended together. The best analogy is life. If you held a prism up to this light it would break into the eight band color spectrum. No one of that color sp ectrum has to sacrifice anything to be a part of the team. Red is just as red, violet is just as violet, working quietly together they produce good for everyone. If we would learn that important lesson, the issue of race would disappear as an issue.

Jay Holloway:
Can we do that in the churches? And let me ask you, Jack, how do you serve your God? I mean, do you do church? And what would you say is your religion or your faith?

Jack Davis:
Well, in the first place, I don't have religion. I steadfastly refuse religion. And the way I serve my God is I try - and I fail because of my humanness - but I try to treat people the way that I want to be treated in any given circumstance. Now, like I just said, to reiterate, there are times that I trip myself up because of my humanness. I go into sort of a posturing stance and I have to let people know that I'm a macho man at times. But, that's not of God, that's of Jack. And just to get back to the answering of your question and what Milton said, we have got to start on the spiritual level. And the spiritual level has to be all inclusive with what God wants us to be.

Jay Holloway:
Do you follow Christianity?

Jack Davis:
Well, I got a real strange answer for that. I don't see myself as a Christian. To me, the word Christian denotes or connotes completion and it means that you have arrived. I see myself as a disciple or a believer or a follower and once - if I ever arrive, then I'll be a Christian. But I just think at this point I'm still in development.

Jay Holloway:
So you are really, mostly concerned with categories and labels in general with this Black Issues Form or Christianity but -

Jack Davis:
Labels narrow things down. Labels give you a tunnel vision to a degree. I think that's what labels do. It's just like blinders, that's what labels are. You see neither to the right or to the left, but you see straight ahead.

Jay Holloway:
Now, this country was founded, on every dollar bill it says "In God We Trust." And supposedly on Christian principles. And yet the constitution was written and started off by saying that really everyone was not included, but three-fifths human blacks. That's probably one of the reasons why we still have this today because the issues continue to exist. Now if you brought it back in saying if we would all just believe in God and believe and serve the same God, but yet we've go t all these divisive, as you say, different religions. And yet you may not have the opportunity to see Milton in that church. Or where would you have an opportunity for racial reconciliation or integration to discuss these issues outside of a program like this? Or with people that serve God?

Jack Davis:
Well, my shop for one. I don't allow racism in my shop. I probably shouldn't say this, but I'll just be discreet about it and say the "N" word. I have some people that come into my shop and they use the "N" word and I say, "Well, what color were they?" And they'll say to me, "What do you mean?" I'll say, "Were they white or were they black?" That's the two categories I just narrow it down to. I should include all of the, huh Milton? But they look at me like they just don't understand because that word denotes actions, it doesn't have anything to do with color.

Jay Holloway:
We have just less than three minutes here. I was watching 60 Minutes just the other night. They did a feature on a radio talk show host in Los Angeles and they ended with this comment - they were describing the LA talk show host, who was black, as being a black conservative who many blacks didn't support because, he said to Morly Safer that "if someone said to me that I'm an Uncle Tom because I have white friends and I'm opposed to a lot of the things the majority of blacks say," he says, "I don't think there's any difference than someone that would say that you're a "N" lover, being a racist as well." What do you both have to say about that? Is that equivalent?

Milton Jordan:
Yeah. See, racism - one of the mistakes that we make and one of the reasons we can't get to this solution is this notion that racism is kind of a one-way street. It is something that somebody does to you and you, of course, don't do it to yourself or do it to other people. And that, too, is absolutely absurd. So, yeah, it happens on both sides of the fence, on both sides of the street. And let me just give you an example. The way I define "white," it literally means a condition absent of all color. "Black" means the condition from which light does not escape. I do not see this show as an ethnic show in the traditional sense of the word. We're discussing issues on this show from which light has never escaped before and what we're trying to do on this show is to bring light to those discussion, like this. This discussion could not have happened, I don't believe, on any other show.

Jay Holloway:
Jack, -

Jack Davis:
To just also use Milton's analogy - I'm not trying to be disagreeable, but actually, black is the absence of all color, and white is the presence of all color. And I don't see it as a color issue. I see race as a human race, not as a race of color.

Jay Holloway:
You've got an opportunity now to speak to - this program targets African Americans, but I'm sure -

Jack Davis:
See, that's a divisive term, too.

Jay Holloway:
What would you say to those folks now? You've got an opportunity to talk.

Jack Davis:
Well, I would just say to abandon - not necessarily abandon, but re-think your views about terms that relate specifically to blacks and start thinking in terms of humans instead of race, instead of color, that is. There's some way we've got to come together and we've got to join. There's some way we've got to do it.

Jay Holloway:
Ten seconds, Milton.

Milton Jordan:
Jack, in 1827, these citizens had a convention in Philadelphia and the first statement of manifesto is that we are Americans. It has been rejected ever since.

Jay Holloway:
All righty. Well, gentlemen, this time has really run out. Jack, you've had an opportunity and we thank you for coming. Milton, thank you for coming.

Milton Jordan:
Sure.

Jay Holloway:
And thank you for watching. He's gonna shake your hand, Milton. All right. Thank you for watching our program tonight. And we invite you to watch Black Issues Forum every Friday night at 11:00 on UNC-TV. We hope that you are better informed about issues of race right here in North Carolina. And after watching another episode, that you are now more informed as to why this program continues to fill a need. After all, communication should be the first step to improving race relations. If race were not an issue, then this program would probably not exist. Help us to think of solutions to this problem. Please contact us with your comments and if you would like to see or use this program on a series or discussion guide in your community, civic group, classroom or church, our telephone number (919) 549-7167. Or you may e-mail us at bif@unctv.org or visit us on the web at www.unctv.org/bif. you'll find information on past episodes and additional information on concerns, particularly to African Americans. Thank you again for watching Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway. You have a blessed evening and a good night.