Jay Holloway: District court judges have enormous power in this state. Their decisions can take your children, end your marriage and garnish your pay. Stay tuned to learn more about one Chief District Court Judge, Herbert Richardson, next on Black Issues Forum.

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Jay Holloway: Hello, I'm Jay Holloway, and welcome to Black Issues Forum. Tonight you're in for a real treat. We have Chief District Court Judge Herbert Richardson. It's an honor to have you with us tonight, Judge.

Judge Herbert Richardson: Thank you, Jay.

Jay Holloway: All righty. I'm certainly excited to have you because it was just this past Spring where Judge Richardson and I were attending a conference back in Fayetteville. It was the council on black American affairs, I believe, an organization of community colleges through the country, but the North Carolina division here and we both were speakers. I spoke at the morning opening sessions and I was treated at lunch with the keynote speaker and everyone said, you know, "This is the kind of thing that folks need to hear all across the state. And I stood up in the audience and I said, "I volunteer the resources of North Carolina's public television network and invite the judge on Black Issues Forum and here you are.

Judge Herbert Richardson: Thank you very much.

Jay Holloway: You certainly gave an enlightening speech to that audience that day and I think you have such profound views that a lot of people need to hear. But our show producer had a chance to talk to you, but she said you view your work as social work, cause I want to use that to kind of set up before we take a look at what you do down there in Lumberton. Why do you view your work as social work?

Judge Herbert Richardson: As a judge in Robinson County, 90% of all the people that ever are going to touch the court systems are affected basically in the district court. If you're going to get your first traffic ticket, if you ever have your first domestic problem with your spouse or your wife, you're going to see district court. 90% of the public's opinion about whether the court system works favorably or unfavorably to the public, comes with that initial contact. So if I do the job very well, everybody assumes that the court systems work very well. And if you win, you come out thinking, "This is a marvelous system." But if you lose you might have less than a credible opinion about - the district court is what we call the people's court, not like the television show, but it is a court where you can come in and feel comfortable and speak to a judge and say, "This is my position. This is what I say happened" and it is not so formal that you have to have a lawyer every time to come in and to defend yourself or represent yourself. So therefore, we have to make our courts more people oriented so therefore it is not as formal as maybe a federal court or a superior court and therefore the public feels a bit more at ease to state their contention and to pray for a result they hope is favorable to them.

Jay Holloway: Well you have a lot of strong views, I know, because I've talked with you and I've heard you speak on the family taking responsibility, on really getting involved in taking control of those schools, and the community getting really involved. But first what I want to do is take folks, and me included, to Lumberton and I want - because you know you can really tell a great deal about a person when you watch them at work. Now our show producer Mary Johnson recently visited Judge Richa rdson's courtroom and here is her report.

Mary Johnson:: The town of Lumberton has few more attractive streets that this one; it's Elm Street. Lumberton is the home of our guest today, Judge Herbert L. Richardson, Chief District Judge of the 16B judicial district. This is Robinson County. It is the unlikely spot where Judge Richardson is living the American dream, the Horatio Alger story of a person the judge calls a "poor little tobacco farm boy out of Nash County." Judge Richardson, a native of Nashville, North Carolina, is the son of the late Reverend Kermit Richardson and Mrs. Lou Richardson of Hollister, North Carolina. He received a Bachelor of Arts degree in 1973 and a Juris Doctor degree in 1976 from North Carolina Central University. Judge Richardson began his law practice in Durham in 1976. Later moving to Lumberton and becoming its first minority member of its district attorney's office. In August 1979, Governor James B. Hunt appointed him to the distr ict court bench where he is now serving his fourth term. Judge Richardson was appointed Chief Judge on December 1, 1994. Here are some scenes from that swearing in ceremony.

Judge Herbert Richardson: I want to say to my great-grand-mother, who is up there, and we're videotaping so that she can see it. I want to say to my grandmother, for all the tea cakes and sweet potatoes and biscuits, thank you. To my grand-father, though he cannot be here, for the many times I walked with him across a freshly plowed field and tried to step in his steps, even though I wasn't tall enough to do it, I thank him for that. I want to thank my dad who is here. My mom, let me tell you something, I don't care what anybody tells you, and my dad in Nash County if any of you get a chance to go there - my dad is the kind of fellow that if you could walk into a hardware store and order something and the fellow says, "Ain't you the preacher's boy?" and he'll go, "Take it all." You didn't need any money, you just needed to know that you were the preacher's boy. And that's what my dad is back in Nash County. The fact that you belong to him is all the credit you need anywhere. Can you imagine growing up in the shadow of a man who you could walk into a store and just cause they recognize your face you can get anything that you want - can you imagine what it is to grow up in the shadow of a man like that? And my mama was his boss. [LAUGHTER/APPLAUSE] Behind any good man, there's a woman, but behind every great man, there are at least two or three women. And this is one right here. I want to show you one that I am extremely grateful to. Now this lady has pulled a life sentence. She's been married to me for twenty years. I want to introduce you all to my lovely wife, Ms. Patricia Richardson. There's my idol, my look-alike, ______ Herbie. Stand up. If you ever want to know what means most to me in my life today.

Mary Johnson:: The 16B judicial district that includes Lumberton now has minority judges in five of its seven positions. Judge Richardson has worked very hard for this and he is considered a consummate politician as well as a common sense judge. He is a member of the North Carolina Bar Association, the North Carolina Academy of Trail Lawyers, the North Carolina Association of Black Trial Lawyers, North Carolina Association of Trial Judges, and the National Association of Trial Judges. He serve s as a member of many boards and advisory councils. He has truly become that poor little farm boy from a tobacco area who is now at the top of his form.

Jay Holloway: Judge, how did you do that from tobacco boy to a chief district court judge?

Judge Herbert Richardson: I had a lot of help. My dad had been a good Baptist preacher who believed in hard work. I surrounded myself with good people, good teachers like Miss Rosalie Beatty from Nash County, Miss Annie Duncan, the librarian from North Carolina Central University's law school and Dean Sampson. They all spent a lot of time helping me. I was country and rough and I needed people to rub the rough edges off of me and make me suitable for the practice. And these people gave me ad vice and counseling and as a result of listening and having a lot of other people praying for me, I was able to move from a rural environment to Durham and then from Durham to Robinson County. Now Robinson County is a little unique for those people in North Carolina that don't know. It is a tri-racial county: blacks, whites and native Americans. And to go to a rural environment where I'm an outsider and then come in there and in less than a year become a judge is almost unheard of anywhere in this state. And because of hard work and an effort to understand the people that make up that county and to understand their problems and what they need from the court system - because I was willing to listen and then to work with them, an opportunity opened up and the next thing I knew I was on the bench.

Jay Holloway: Well now, let's talk about this because some of the views I think you're about to express now in terms of responsibility that we need to take in our own communities to overcome the many problems that African Americans have in today's society in this state in rural and urban metropolitan areas in North Carolina - one of the categories is just family responsibility. You have some strong views about what our families need to do.

Judge Herbert Richardson: I think the first thing you have to understand is that in order to succeed, you must be successful at home. You must take care of business at home. That means you must be a father that provides for your children and your wife. You have to be there to help your children with homework, with discipline, you've got to be a motivation coach, you have to pray with them, and occasionally you may need to spank the bottom a little bit to make sure it works. But you cannot do it unless you are home. And you cannot do it by telephoning it in. You cannot substitute a day care for your parenting efforts. You must do it yourself. If your child is gone astray, it is your responsibility to get him or her and bring him or her back. And it is your responsibility to make sure that there is food a plenty. Make sure the educational opportunities are a plenty. But more importantly, it's being parent a plenty. People talk about quality time. There's no such thing as quality time. Children need you all the time. And if you give them that and encourage them and stimulate their bottom occasionally, then they will succeed. I'll bet you money on that.

Jay Holloway: You see a lot of this, I bet, in terms of people coming into your courtroom and you see that some of these things are perhaps not taking place.

Judge Herbert Richardson: That is correct. They come in and say, "Judge, I can't do nothin' else with him. Y'all can have him. Put him in reform school. I don't know what to do with him anymore." That's not the child's problem. Now I'm not saying that all children are saints. I'm not saying that. But you cannot wait till a child is 14 to try and spank him the first time. You cannot tell him "no" at 14. You have to start when a child is in your arms, or even before then, explaining, "No, no, no. We don't do that kind of thing in here." We have to take responsibility. We can no longer allow the government to raise our children and set up policy and procedure for raising children in our community. Who knows better how to raise a black child than people who are born in a black community, live in a black community, worship in a black community? Who knows better than I do about my own child? I know when my child is lying to me. I know it. You don't have to tell me. I already know. But if you're not home, you won't have the time to see the difference. And that's what we get back to - let's stop trying to be so successful and become chairmen of departments - let's start taking care of business and being successful at home. Then you children will go out and do well and you can sit back and brag about the fact that you have two PhDs at your house who graduated summa cum laude and you're very proud. Let's start spending time and making that effort on our children, not so much on whether or not we have big cars and fancy titles.

Jay Holloway: Now, in terms of - your speech you made in Fayetteville was centered around moving into the next millennium.

Judge Herbert Richardson: Yes.

Jay Holloway: And here we are a hundred year, well a little over a hundred and thirty-some years ago, coming out of slavery and here we are coming into a new millennium here now, a new century. And you drew some parallels to where we came from then going into a new century and now going into another century which is also another millennium. Can you share that with our audience?

Judge Herbert Richardson: Well, in the beginning of the twentieth century, which was the late 1900s, almost every black man in America was employed. He worked in fields, in houses, grain shops. Almost every black man in America was employed. He didn't make any money, but he was employed and he want home. And he took care of his family out of the two little dollars or fifty cents that he made out of that day's work. And he stayed home and took care of his children. And he also probably raise d two or three grand-children or, we call them "absorb" children. In the black community right now, we have a lot of children that are in foster care, in orphanages and nobody wants them. In the old days, if somebody had a child out of wedlock or somebody left a child with you, you simply added another cup to the soup and you stretched it and you threw another child in the bed and you slept two at the head and two at the foot. Right now in the black community, if a child's parent dies, he's left to the state's award. Nobody absorbs that child anymore. What happened to our community - when we lived in those fields we could absorb children and we took care of our own. There was no welfare. We made it off of what we had. Now we have all these advantages, all the Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, and we can't take care of black children.

Jay Holloway: So it's easy for a parent now, you're saying easier, to accept these handouts and not take responsibility.

Judge Herbert Richardson: Sure. If you know right now that if you don't pay your bills at the end of the month you're going to be out on the street and you won't have a car, then you will find something to do. Now the moment you make people understand that you are responsible for your actions - if you create a life, you better create a job right beside it to pay for it. If you cannot afford two children, you better not have two. And you can't say, "Well it's somebody else's fault." It's no o ne else's fault but yours. God gave you everything you ever needed the day you was born: common sense, the ability to reason and more importantly, you move your mouth and say, "No." Well, that's simple in theory, but what about the children in the street? Who tells them how to say "no"? We're talking about the same point again. If you have not taught your child how to resist temptation - and we have parents who have as much problem as children saying "no" to temptation. So if you can't say "no" to a new car, if you cannot say "no" to a new suit, then how can a child say "no" to a pair of Reeboks or baggy pants? Children learn by imitation. They imitate us. So if we can't say "no" to temptation, then they can't say "no." If we cheat on our taxes, then they lie at school or they cheat on tests. So who is the greater liar? You for cheating on your taxes or me for lying or cheating on my test at school? They only did the same thing you did, just on a smaller grade. So let's be honest. Let's stop lying to ourselves and more importantly, stop lying to our children. Make them tow the line, and we must tow the line as well.

Jay Holloway: How do you balance, if there is a balance, between your strong personal views and then when you're with that role of a judge and you know someone's not doing this, but these are your personal views. How do you balance that?

Judge Herbert Richardson: It is unusual because there is something more here at play than you might think. I am a black judge living in a multicultural county - three races - and I have to live with my wife, who is a beautiful African queen, and two small children, and I live in that environment. Then I have to live in my public environment, then I go to the courthouse and put on this robe and magically be transformed into an arbitrator, a referee of many affairs. And I cannot bring anything t hat is not black letter law into it - my personal views, my racial views, if I should have one whether I like or don't like particular people, goes out the window. I have a saying in my courtroom: I want to see green. When you're in child support court, I want to see the color of your money. Show me the money. When you're in domestic court, I want to know, who is better suited to raise children? When you're in my traffic court, did you speed or didn't you speed? It's not a matter of, did the black officer stop you? Did the white officer? That has nothing to do with it. Did you break the law or not? Now that's professional. It's like it is when you run this show. Your views on the show and your views outside may be two different things, but we take care of business in both places. I do my job better than anybody you've ever seen. When I walk out of there and hang up that robe, I become father, community leader, church leader. And I have strong views about that. I enforce the law to the hilt in that courtroom. And when I go home I enforce the law. And then when I'm in church I try to live by the law, which is what the reverent hands me, and I have to live by that rule. So there it's not a problem. It is a serious problem for black judges because we live in an environment where - all except for my county, in my county we have Lumbi Indians as judges, African Americans as judges, and whites as judges.

Jay Holloway: Now how do you deal with that? Your physical characteristics are, of all of those -

Judge Herbert Richardson: That's interesting. Cause you and I dealt with that when we came through school. And sometimes people come in the courtroom and I'll say, "Who tried you last time?" "I don't know. It was that white judge." Or sometimes they'll say, "It was that Native American judge. I don't know what it was, but it was that fellow sitting up there." And I deal with it from a perspective like this - I deal with what I am. I know I was born black and a Baptist, lived black and a B aptist, and am going to die black and a Baptist. So that does not bother me. People have problems with it, but I just deal with it like, "Look. Did the judge have hair or not? If he didn't have a whole lot of hair it was me because I'm balding." So therefore they can tell me. But it does not pose a problem. A lot of people say I'm more Indian than I am black. It depends on who you ask, but my dad is African American and my mom is, too. And a very beautiful lady she is, too. But we don't let that bother us. I walk in that courtroom and, as your producer can tell you, when I walk in that courtroom it's business. I am a professional at what I do. And each day before I walk in that courtroom, I've got a little sign up over my door: "Lord, give me the strength to do right." That is the key. No matter whether you are a black child, a white child, a black judge, a white judge, you have to do your best when you walk in that courtroom. If you cannot produce the best each day you walk in that courtroom, you have no business in there. And the day I cannot do that, I will voluntarily take that robe off and I will never sit in a courtroom again. I believe in doing it right the first time through.

Jay Holloway: All right. Let's move to another category in terms of schools. You have some strong views also about parents. It's just a basic concept that parents need to be more involved in the schools and take back control of these schools. What do you have to say to parents out there about their involvement in their child's schooling?

Judge Herbert Richardson: First thing, don't be afraid of schools. Schools are not prisons. They're not off limits to the public. You pay for that school out of your tax money. You deserve to be there. I'm of the opinion that the first thing you should do when you put your child in public school is to go spend a day. Go see that the environment is suitable to your child. See if there's anything that might offend your child. Is there anything that makes him feel uncomfortable or unsafe? I f there is a place in that school that makes your child feel unsafe, you should do something about it. Now, you say, "I can't leave work to give up a day's work to go check on my child." You either give up a day of your work to check on him and make sure he's all right or you come downtown and spend three or four days sitting in court. Which is cheaper? I believe in preventative medicine and preventative maintenance. Therefore, I'll drop in on my child totally unexpected in the middle of the day just to let him know that I'm thinking about him. And I want the teachers to know that I will stop in there, unannounced and just say, "Oh, hi, I just came to watch."

Jay Holloway: Now you do that. I saw the sparkle in your eye when we were watching the video of your two children. And I know that you practice what you preach. Is that true?

Judge Herbert Richardson: I love them dearly, but I'll warm their bottoms if they don't do right. And that's what I believe in. I expect excellence. I say, "Your job is to go to school and to do well. My job is to make sure your house is comfortable, your tummy is fed, you have nice clothes on, that you look decent, and that you understand that God is your protector. You need nothing else. So when you go to school, I expect you to be an academically gifted student. And if not, then you tel l me and I'll provide those resources for you." All it requires is that you sit down with him or with her and help them. A lot of parents will say, "Look, I don't understand trig, I don't understand calculus." I understand that. But it does not mean that you can't sit there and say, "Well look, I don't understand it, but I'm willing to sit here with you and help you through it and do whatever I can do." A lot of times that will do more than a tutor. Just say, "I'm concerned about your work, I'm concerned about your effort, and if you need me, I'm here for you." Let your child who goes to school next Fall know that. "I didn't get all the answers right, but my mom was hanging in there with me." And that helps children get through the day. School is difficult right now. When you and I were in school, the only thing we worried about was whether or not we were gonna have a girlfriend or not. These kids have so many pressures on them, it's a wonder they even survive through school.

Jay Holloway: Now, judge, when you add the whole dilemma of the family situation, then they go to school, but they've got to come back, in many cases, in some very difficult drug and poverty infested communities. What do African Americans have to do to take back control of our communities?

Judge Herbert Richardson: It's relatively simple. Every drug dealer is somebody's child. Every thief, bum is somebody's child. My theory is, take your child or your children and go home, close the door. Half the drug problem in the black community has disappeared because there's nobody out there. Now, if you don't have anybody to sell drugs to, it's like a television station - if you don't have an audience to sell it to, you go out of business. You take your child and remove the temptation. Stop giving him extra spending money that you can't account for. Stop allowing him to roam the streets unattended. Stop allowing him to just freelance. You bring him home, that removes the drug problem out of your community, it removes the temptation to steal to pay for these habits. If the black community wants to clean up its own problem, it's simple. Take care of your child, get him out of the streets, and half the problem is gone. Stop buying stolen goods. Stop allowing stolen goods to be bought and sold around you. Call the police. You say, "I don't want to get involved." You must get involved. If you don't get involved, they will take your community, they'll take your children and they'll take your very lives. So either you get involved or you die. It is that simple.

Jay Holloway: Is that problem in - I'm going to say Robinson County is rural, but is it that prevalent in your county?

Judge Herbert Richardson: It is a problem everywhere you go, Jay. It's not just exclusive to Durham or Raleigh or anywhere else. We have as much a drug problem because we have I/95 running through, which is the drug cart of the world. But what we have tried to do is to teach the children, "Look, you can get high, but not on drugs. Get high on the fact that you can score and be an academically gifted child or that you can steal second base." I bet a child would rather steal second base any da y than steal a car. I'm of the opinion that if a child sees that he can succeed, even if it is the fact that teachers recognize him once a week. That he came to school for five days and didn't get thrown into in-school suspension. He should be rewarded. I think the news media and all kinds of media should step up their efforts because you can put an athlete on front page and run him at the six o'clock news, but if a child becomes an academic all-American or becomes a gifted child and does very well, nobody ever sees him. Why do we reward the athletes but we don't recognize the academic students? We should start turning our focus back to saying, "Look, we respect your knowledge. We respect your skill. And more importantly, we appreciate your hard work."

Jay Holloway: Now the church has a lot of responsibility for that. I know you have some views on that, and we have just a couple of minutes.

Judge Herbert Richardson: I'm of the opinion that we have the most beautiful churches in the world, but they should be open more than just on Sunday and Wednesday night. Your churches should be open in the evening for after care to give these children a safe environment to play in. We have beautiful collections of books in these churches. Why aren't children being allowed and being taught in these beautiful churches on these real soft chairs where they could learn. We've got a lot of teachers in these churches. They should be helping these children with English and math and science and getting them ready for the SAT. If we worked in these churches to save as we claim that we ought to be doing, then I'm of the opinion that you'll find SAT scores sky rocket. You'll find academic performance and social performance start to improve. You cannot make a child a good human being until you show him what he needs to do.

Jay Holloway: In 30 seconds, I know you have some strong views, but in terms of representation on the bench and blacks going into law school, what do you have to say about that?

Judge Herbert Richardson: We need more blacks going into law. You cannot complain that you don't see black judges when you don't have but one or two black lawyers in a town. If you want more black judges, send more of these black students to law school, graduate them on time, we'll put them on the bench for you, Jay.

Jay Holloway: Okay. Judge, thank you so much. Time has run out. We really appreciate you coming to share your thoughts and views with us.

Judge Herbert Richardson: Thank you so very much.

Jay Holloway: And we certainly have learned a great deal about how district court operates and we also have learned about why Judge Herbert L. Richardson is the outstanding judge he is today. Thank you for watching Black Issues Forum and please look for more information on this show and other topics of similar interest on our worldwide web site. That's at www.unctv.org and we thank you so very much for watching Black Issues Forum. There's our address on the screen. Give us a call at (919) 549-7167. And thanks again for watching. You have a blessed evening and a good night.