Holloway:
If money is the bottom line on many issues, then are blacks in North Carolina getting their fair share of the economic pie? I'm Jay Holloway, join us next on Black Issues Forum to find out the facts and some of the viewpoints, and some strategies to resolving these issues. [MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to the season premiere of Black Issues Forum, I'm Jay Holloway, your host. This season many of our programs will focus on race relations. As John Hope Franklin says, "there has been no real extensive grass-roots, honest, constructive dialogue between races on race relations." We ought to achieve part of that goal this season on Black Issues Forum.

We have received your telephone calls, e-mails, and faxes, and we've taken our cameras out of the studios to get your opinions. Many of what you have said has been very honest about the issues that concern you, so based on many of your comments, this season we'll look at a broad range of issues with dialogue between races on equity in education, alternatives to public schools, labor wages, civil rights history, legal rights, Hispanic relations, health issues, among others. And we won't be alone, throug

Well, tonight though, we'll begin with a discussion on economic issues that seem to effect African-Americans more disproportionately. We'll discuss the disparities between blacks and white in North Carolina, relating to poverty, employment, income, education and business, and investments. So let's take a look at the first issue. African Americans constitute about 22.3% of this state's population, yet according to trends in the US Census, in 1970 African-Americans accounted for 44% of the total number of

Well, interesting situation. Dr. Godfrey, you're a professor of Business and Marketing at St. Augustine's College. Why do we have that disparity, and what do you think are some of the solutions? What are your views on these disturbing graphics?

Godfrey:
Well, there are a lot of reasons I could give, but I like to focus on our economic power as a people. For example, last year it is estimated that we earned about $400 billion as a people-

Holloway
Nationally.

Godfrey:
Nationally. Which would make us, if you equated that to a gross national product, we would be somewhere around the ninth or the tenth largest country in the world. However, we as a people only spend seven cents out of every dollar we earn in the black community, so there's a link between our conditions in society and the way we spend the money that we earn. And that's what I'd like to focus on this evening with you.

Holloway:
So, in looking at a situation now or a trend, though, before we focus too much into that, do you see that because we have such a disparity in the large numbers of people that are in poverty, you're saying even the money that they do have should consider spending it in a constructive way that goes back into their community, is that what you're saying?

Godfrey:
In other communities, for example, dollars are turned over 10, 12, 13 times before it leaves the community. In the black community it turns over less than once, you see? So 93 cents out of every dollar we earn, we put in the hands of someone who doesn't look like us, and that money leaves the community and as a result we become less empowered.

Holloway:
But you aren't talking about investing in the stock market. You're talking about regular consumer spending, regular everyday purchases.

Godfrey:
Everyday purchases.

Holloway:
Let me introduce Dr. Walden at NC State. You're a professor of Economics there at NC State . . .

Walden:
That's true.

Holloway:
And you're a specialist in investing. You heard some of the things that Dr. Godfrey mentioned. Do you see, what are the statistics nationally and in North Carolina in terms of investing? What percentage generally invests in the stock market or makes investments?

Walden:
About 20% of people have investments in the stock market, I don't know the exact racial breakdown, but about one out of five folks. I agree with Dr. Godfrey, I think the key in narrowing the gap, economic gap, if you will, between African-Americans and others in this state and in the nation as a whole, is economic empowerment. And I think at one level you start through the education system, and I think one of the issues that we see in some of the educational statistics is that one s

Holloway:
Now, how many opportunities do you see though, in these black communities for business and employment so that blacks can employ each other and reinvest and have that self-help or economic development you're talking about.

Godfrey:
I think the opportunities are unlimited. However, getting the financial resources to establish businesses might be a deterrent. We have to change some zoning laws to allow that to happen. We have to set up incubators in the African-American communities to encourage entrepreneurship. So those are some of the things that can be done, but I think the opportunities are unlimited. There's no business which exists in America that blacks cannot establish and participate in effectively.

Holloway:
Well, one of the things that-we have some statistics that we're going to talk about later on in terms of the amount of black businesses in North Carolina versus the larger businesses. We'll talk about the education, you mentioned education was a big thing. But right now, while North Carolina, particularly in the Triangle area, has relatively low unemployment, there still appears to be a major difference in employment. Let's talk about that. We have another graphic. Historically

Godfrey:
Okay, we can go right back to my first point. If we were to use our money like other communities do, we would become economically empowered. We could create businesses, we could create jobs, and we could attack the unemployment problem. But as long as we continue to depend on others to hire us, I think that we're going to be faced with this situation. Because like it or not, in most cases, the person sitting across the table from an African-American is not going to be like him or her, and that person might give preference to somebody who looks more like him. Organizations tend to hire people who sort of fit in with the organization, and that includes an array of qualifications and characteristics, one of which might be race.

Walden:
Well, again, my focus would be to go back on education. I think that we have a lot of room to improve in the educational area, elementary, secondary, even university education. We've got to close that educational gap between African-Americans and whites, and probably on future shows you're going to talk about what are some of the alternatives, do we go to a privatized education system, vouchers, those sorts of things. Another maybe shorter run aspect is that in many cases, African-American and African-American communities, the residents there don't have easy access to the jobs that may be in the suburbs, and our public transportation system is set up to feed people from the suburbs into the central cities, not to go the reverse. And so I would encourage our leaders in Raleigh and cities across North Carolina to take a real hard look at the public transportation system. Maybe we don't want to focus on it as a way to get suburban commuters out of their car and go into the central businesses, maybe we want to use it to increase the access of residents in city communities, African-American communities, such that they can get to the malls, they can get to the jobs that tend to be in the suburbs.

Holloway:
But now he's talking about also not necessarily going there because the businesses are already there, you're talking about developing those businesses within the black community.

Godfrey:
Well I don't see them as being mutually exclusive. Both would accomplish what I'm talking about. And I agree with what he said about the transportation being a problem. But if you were to go back 20, 25, 30 years, and look at the black communities, which were self-contained and empowered, I mean we had our own businesses, we had hotels, restaurants, hospitals, just about everything we needed was contained within the black community. Then three phenomena happened. One was vigilantle, Tulsa, Oklahoma where they went up on the sky and leveled 200 square blocks of the black community with bombs dropped from helicopters and planes. Then we had this other phenomenon called Urban Renewal, which I refer to as "Urban Removal," which tended to split black communities in half; if you look at the Hayti community in Durham, for example, which created problems for blacks. And then

Holloway:
Well since you said that, let me prepare for our next graphic, the third issue on education. And if we could go to that, and I want to have my copy there. We see that the, okay, now this is income, I'm sorry. We see that the median family income there is drastically different. In other words, here's a graphic showing North Carolina median family income from 1950 through 1990. The income black between whites and minorities has not improved very much over the last 40 years, despite significant increases within racial groups. In 1950, the median family income for blacks was about 50% that of whites. In 1990, black median family income increased slightly to 56% that of whites. So what you're talking about, I guess, maybe in the 1950's we had more of that self-help, but yet it's still been a change even over those years.

Godfrey:
That's true . . . . Wait a minute, I don't really understand what you just said.

Holloway:
Well I guess there's a racial difference from '50 to 1990, and the income level was drastically different in the 1950's, and it began each decade to close a little bit. The income level is here, now has come up, but we've lost that sense of the black community and black businesses. Is there any kind of relationship between that income, I guess, and the loss of that investment in black community and sense of-you know, you had the "Urban Removal" as you stated, all those changes, th

Godfrey:
Right. But you have to look at the income relative to the purchasing power of that income, too. But I think inflation has eaten up a lot of the spending power in the difference between blacks and whites. And now I think a lot of cases, blacks are living beyond their means and turning the credit. And we believe in immediate gratification, that's a generalization, as opposed to postponed gratification. So you know, I think to just focus on one issue would not give legitimate treatment to this dilemma, and we have to look at all things, like he said, economics, transportation, economic empowerment, and stuff like that.

Walden:
I can throw one other thing in the mix, Jay, and that is safety. If people feel safe in their neighborhoods, if investors feel safe in their neighborhoods, business people feel safe, they will invest in the neighborhood. In fact, I've done some research, not specifically on this topic but looking at cities across the country, and found that those cities that are spending more on public safety per capita tend to have a higher growth rate. And I think that's another issue-well, it's an issue in all neighborhoods, but particularly in some African-American communities, if the folks don't feel safe there, businesses don't feel safe, people aren't going to put money into that area. So I think that's another element, that we need to do things to make those African-American communities, those traditional communities safe.

Holloway:
Is that a trend that you have seen, Dr. Godfrey, that over these years that the communities have become less safe and therefore we get into the legal system, and therefore economically you don't have investment there?

Godfrey:
No doubt about it.

Holloway:
From the black businessperson's point of view, too.

Godfrey:
Right. Because I remember when I was growing up in the black community, we could leave home without even locking our doors. Now you have to put three and four locks, have a Rottweiler and a couple of Doberman Pinschers to protect your property now. You can also look at the disparity, if you go out in North Raleigh out Six Forks Road and look at precinct they have out there, you see hundreds of police cars out there, right? But if you come into Southeast Raleigh around East Street,

Holloway:
Well, interesting phenomena. How do we get more discussion? I mean, is there any, why would-you probably wouldn't be qualified to answer, but-why would, why don't we have more discussion across races on this? Do you see any relationship to the success of the African-American community, the larger economic plight of North Carolina or America?

Walden:
Well, sure, we're all in the same economy, so in some sense if the whole economy improves, everyone's going to be pulled up. The gaps may not close, but I think we all have a stake in making sure the national economy grows and the North Carolina economy grows, and so forth. I don't know, maybe I'm a Pollyanna about this, but I think the basic issues that African-Americans are worried about and whites are worried about and Native Americans are worried about are pretty much the same. izens want, whatever their color, whatever their race, is pretty much the same.

Godfrey:
And Dr. Walden, you know about spillovers, and everybody needs to understand that everything that effects everybody else effects me, you see? So maybe we don't have any children in the public school system, but it's important that we support public education because if we can educate these kids, give them skills, they are less likely to become a burden on society and your tax dollars have to pay for them to go to prison or take care of them otherwise. So we're all in this together, and like he said, it crosses all racial lines.

Holloway:
Do you think that the larger community has in interest in understanding that, or is it that that's their problem, keep it over in their community?

Walden:
Well, quite frankly, I think most people are most focused on their family and their immediate community. But what I'm suggesting is that I think there are probably some common elements that all of us are concerned about, and what we do in North Raleigh, if we're going to make North Raleigh safe, are basically the same things it seems to me we do in Southeast Raleigh to make Southeast Raleigh safe. If we're going to have good education in North Raleigh, probably basically the same th

Holloway:
Well one of the solutions is investment. If you have the dollars, the stock market is not black or white, it's green. Is that an issue that you feel-do you have any idea on the percentage racially that invest? I think you said in the outset . . .

Walden:
Well overall about one in five Americans have a direct investment in the stock market. My guess would be the percentage would be slightly lower among African-Americans, simply because as your graphics have shown, incomes tend to be lower, poverty tends to be higher, and I think the higher your income the more likely you're going to invest in the stock market. But I think you characterize it very well, the stock market's one of these things that doesn't see black and white, it sees g

Godfrey:
And I know some people are going to say, well, he said we need a thousand or two thousand dollars, that's a lot of money. But we have to learn to start pooling our resources. See, if you can get 20 people together to pull $100, you've got your $2000. So we need to start forming investment clubs, and there are some very successful African-American investment clubs throughout America, and we could use those as models.

Holloway:
One of the things that I'm aware of in the industry that I work, broadcasting, Bob Johnson, the owner of BET was the first successful, as I understand, African-American business to be exchanged on the New York Stock Exchange, and I understand now just recently, he is going to buy that back out and go back private again, and within about a week he raised $78 million dollars. But do you think part of the reason, Dr. Godfrey, that many blacks don't look to the stock market, one you sa

Godfrey:
There are quite a few black-owned businesses they can trade in, invest in. But let's quit using this generic black, okay? Because black society is a microcosm of the greater society, right? And we have this big gap between the Haves in the black community and the Have-Nots in the black community. So I suspect that the upper 20 to 30% of blacks may well be investing in the stock market, either through 401k plans or investment clubs. But where the real disparity is, is in that lower 70%. So the gap between the so-called Haves and Have-Nots in the black community is widening, and the bottom half is what I'm more concerned about.

Holloway:
Well, we have just five minutes, and maybe we can look at that and talk about the educational aspect, because one of the greatest predictors of income is normally education. Let's look at this last graphic and talk about that. In North Carolina, as well as in the nation as a whole, all racial groups have made great strides in educational attainment. However, minorities continue to lag behind whites in terms of high school and college completion. Now that's the high school graphic you see there. The second graphic indicates a significant increase for whites, increasing from less than 14% to more than 25% of persons age 25 and over with four or more years of college, whereas African-Americans and Native Americans increased from just 5% to above 10% of person aged 25 and older with four or more years of college. So that's a big difference over that trend. So you said right at the beginning, Dr. Walden, that education was part of that aspect. And Dr. Godfrey, maybe that's part of the reason that the microcosm of society within the black community, that portion, because we're talking about still just over 10% over 25 with a college degree. Any comments on that?

Godfrey:
Well, there are a lot of reasons why blacks don't go to college and don't complete college. He made a statement a while ago, and I heard on WUNC, the radio component, the other morning, they said that although we are putting more and more computers in the schools, many students when they leave the schools don't have computers to go home and practice on. So the student who has computers in the school and at home are going to be at an advantage, right? So they are most likely to be able to go to college, because you need to be computer literate in order to do that right now. There are barriers with income; I think the state system just announced an increase in tuition costs. So we're already at the bottom end of the income level which means that we probably don't have computers and we don't have encyclopedias. We are in a school system which is basically alienating to black students. When I went to the all-black high school, for example, we had five people to drop out in four years out of 387 that graduated. Now students are being pushed out, black and white, for whatever reasons. So we need to get inside these schools and see why these students are not staying in there. And the same thing happens with college.

Holloway:
Just a minute left. Any final comments?

Walden:
No, I would agree, I mean, I don't have easy answers. I think we need to question all the types of expenditures we make in the public schools. It's not clear to me that computers are the answer. I think lower class size is quite frankly the answer, but I think we need to start at the very lowest grades and really drill that in to children of all races: education, education, education. That's what it's going to take to get that good-paying job and have that good family and good sta

Holloway:
Well I want to thank you all for coming in and working with us today and talking about economics in general. And hopefully the audience has appreciated and learned something. Dr. Walden, thank you; Dr. Godfrey, thank you. And thank you for watching our program tonight, and we invite you to watch Black Issues Forum every Friday night at 11:00 on UNC-TV. Please continue to contact us with your comments. Our telephone number is 549-7167. Our fax is 549-7168. E-mail us at bif@unctv.org, or visit us on the World Wide Web at www.unctv.org/bif. You'll find information on past episodes and additional information on concerns on this topic and others to the African-American community. Thanks also to the North Carolina Institu

And thank you again for watching Black Issues Forum. Have a blessed evening and a good night. [MUSIC]