Holloway:
Several school districts across North Carolina appears to have racial problems within their public schools. But the problems in Wayne County appear to be unusually grim. Tonight we'll look closely at why many blacks in Wayne County are taking or are proposing to take legal action within their school board. I'm Jay Holloway, join us next for Black Issues Forum.

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Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Jay Holloway, your host. The thrust of tonight's program is to present the issues which have caused controversy between a citizens' group and the Wayne County Board of Education. The issue of equity and redistricting, budget allocations or the bond issues, and other resources between blacks, whites and other minorities is one that both rural and urban communities face across our state. But in Wayne County, both sides have become

Let's start first with Reverend Barber. You chair this group. Tell us first of all, in your own words, who this group is and you have organized.

Barber:
We call ourselves Anonymous We for Education, a predominantly black group but we do have white members as well. Originally we presented over 1500 signatures to the school board supporting our positions. We have well over 300 financial backers who are currently now raising money for our public relations campaign, as well as our potential lawsuits. We never intended to form as a group. Basically, Anonymous We is a group that has brought together all of the leaderships of the various

Anonymous We really was a preacher's way of saying to the board on one night after they refused constant attempts to dialogue, behind closed doors relative to bond money, we simply said one night that there was an "anonymous we" of individuals who were concerned about these issues. From that, it then later became Anonymous We for Education, and we've been together now since January, and have held massive public relation campaigns and protests. We've had Reverend Jackson in the area-

Holloway:
Jesse Jackson.

Barber:
Jesse Jackson. But our main focus has been to say, not that we want everything, but there has to be compromise and dialogue. We even helped to craft a plan recently that was a major compromise on these bond issues, but the school board wouldn't . . . anything we put forward is dismissed, blatantly dismissed, and it is a sad commentary that the school board members would not come. It really shows, I think, the weakness of their position. But also, their refusal shows the kind of wa

Holloway:
Let's move to Stan Allen. Now, you're a reporter, and we asked you to really help us put a perspective on this issue because it's so controversial. Has it really divided the Goldsboro community, the Wayne County community? And how can you, what overall view can you give us on this issue?

Allen:
I definitely think that this issue had divided the community as far as this igniting it, the $38 million bond issue. It started out in 1992 when the school system merged, there was a county school system and a city school system, and this has been leading up to it, and I think the bond vote to build certain schools kind of got one community mad at the other community, they felt like it was inequitable. And it's just been brewing. In 1994, they hired a superintendent to come in, Dr.

Holloway:
So when you said lost them in the "white flight," you mean they've pulled out completely from the public schools.

Allen:
They have pulled out and they've gone to the outlying county schools. The northern part of Wayne County and the eastern part of Wayne County has received most the students, and the enrollment at the city schools has gone down dramatically.

Holloway:
Now, I thought the systems merged, because quite a few counties around the state, the county and the city systems have merged. But you're saying since they've merged, they still are even a separate system or divided, or are you saying . . . ?

Allen:
We have something that everybody calls in the county an "open door policy" on student transfers. And that has been a very controversial issue, and the board is actually working on that right now, and it means for any reason the parent can come up with, they can transfer to another school of their choice. And what it has done, it has polarized the county, certain schools get the "good" students and the other schools get whatever is left, who can't move.

Holloway:
So Reverend Barber, then you're back to almost two separate school systems again.

Barber:
That's the whole point. We voted to be a unitary system, but when you look at the policies and votes on policies, even though no one is calling someone, say, a racial name, we call it in legal terms "disparate impact." The policies in the vote are having a disparate impact on particularly the African-American community. We have over 2000 kids out of district alone, so you have a school system where the four major city schools are over 95% black, even though the school is unitary. the kind of political policies that follow that. If you have all of the students, certain color students or students from a certain district in a certain school, then politicians then are elected in certain ways feel that they can just dismiss those students. One of the things I'm saying about Anonymous We, though, is that we've not just argue

Holloway:
Well obviously, there's a lot of emotion and some bad vibes between the school board and the black community, specifically the Anonymous We. It's my understanding, when our producer spoke with the board and the representatives, that they refused to appear with you because they didn't feel you were reasonable, that you would engage in a reasonable dialogue with them.

Barber:
Well, that's an interesting comment because the board has been the one, that they've made some comments on that board that have been so blatant and so racist-

Holloway:
For example. . . .

Barber:
For example, one night Mr. George Moore who's the vice-chairman of the board, said to the superintendent, who recently left to take a $50,000 job, which is a $70,000 cut from the job he had as superintendent-on tape said to him, "You're digging your hole deeper." Or they've made comments, since the office of civil rights-

Holloway:
Now was this person black or white you're talking about?

Barber:
He was Native American, he was minority. They've made comments relative to the Office of Civil Rights investigating the Wayne County School Board. Let them take our $5 million in federal funds. We're not going to make sure that we don't have racially identifiable schools. We've not been unreasonable. What we have been is factual, and we've had strong statistics, and they've not been able to dismiss us because we were angry or ranting and raving, but we've been consistent, we've b

Holloway:
Let me ask Stan Allen from the local press there. What do you see, you spoke earlier about another bond issue and the redistricting, but what is the major argument that the board is saying, and why are they not willing, why won't they appear on this program to talk about this issue?

Allen:
Well, the majority of the board, I feel that they feel that the issue is over in their minds. They took a vote, I guess a couple of months ago they took a vote, and after the debate started for the bond money in January, the first vote was in January and they've been rescinding votes, and they've been going back and forth on it for months. And what they feel like, the last couple months, that this is over and they're moving on; and another part of the community doesn't feel that way,

Holloway:
So they're saying that the schools are equitable, it's fair, and it's balanced. Are they saying that, or . . .?

Allen:
I don't hear people saying that. Really, at the start of this school year, a couple of schools that have gotten pretty bad press as far as the number of at-risk students. as far as high turnover in teachers, there's a couple of schools, Dillard Middle and Carver Heights, the school board actually decided to do a pilot program in those two schools to lower class sizes. So it was the first time in a while that they've really decided to give those two schools something. They recognize

Holloway:
Is it true what Reverend Barber said, that they haven't changed those since the 1800's? I mean . . .

Allen:
Yeah, that's true. A lot of people said that if they were going to change them, they probably should have changed them when the school systems merged, but it didn't happen. And that has divided, I think, the county and the city schools more than almost any issue. Everything that we're talking about leads back to those district lines.

Barber:
One of the things, Jay, if I could, to kind of give some insight why we don't see it as over. This board recently passed a plan to spend the $38 million in bond money. They took a plan that the two minority school board members, and Anonymous We had a part in helping construct a plan that was a compromise. Now, the plan would have focused on curriculum, focused on middle schools, focused on elementary schools, would've helped 27 of the 28 schools in the county, and would've spent t stand with us for a lot of different reasons, and some of the ties, and we suspect business ties, in rural eastern counties like Wayne County.

Holloway:
Have you all learned any lessons in Wayne County from other counties around the state that have gone through this similar issue, because many in our audience probably acknowledge that these kinds of issues are going on in their county. But some of them have resolved them, some of them are still going through, but it appears that this one is a lot more charged than a lot of other places around the state.

Barber:
I think it's more charged because of the personalities on the school board. You see, the school board, the majority are basically four white men or five white men, all pre-1954, and they have some antiquated ideas about community. They don't seem to understand that we're in a global community. Now in fact, Wayne County's sitting in the middle of the Global Transpark. You cannot have economic development and equal education or opportunities in an environment where you continue to wa

Holloway:
Stan, do you have any reactions to that? In a few minutes we're going to take a look at actually some of the schools there, but.

Allen:
What I want to do is, I want to, since the board members aren't here, I've talked to a lot of their constituents. And the other side of the story, these people have invested money in a part of the county they feel, I think the school board has a major public relations problem. People know coming in when they move to Wayne County what schools to go to, what schools not to go to, and people naturally are going to go to the school they feel like they should go to to help their children.

Holloway:
Let's take a look just before we move on at a tape of some footage we shot by our camera crew during a recent visit to Wayne County schools, and both Reverend Barber and Stan Allen, why don't you both comment. Coming in here to "the Top Ten U.S city, 1993 . . ." Wayne County public schools.

Barber:
We have great potential because the county's very diverse, if we can see that as a strength.

Holloway:
So, you've got a mission there of course, to educate all your children. Now we're looking here at your Southern Wayne High School-

Barber:
Dudley, right.

Allen:
That's the second largest high school in the county and the proposal, one of the proposals would have reduced that school down, and that was fought off by the citizens.

Barber:
In fact, that's one of the pieces of things that we argue, the new bond will create a high school that will reduce the population and hurt the curriculums in that school, and not allow them to provide as many courses. And what we're saying, is this board has actually, Jay, voted-an interim superintendent has taken over, but this board has voted on programs that will hurt curriculum.

Holloway:
Now, so these we're seeing, these schools . . .

Barber:
This is a city school

Allen:
This is North Drive, North Drive Elementary.

Barber:
. . . and my wife works with a child . . .

Holloway:
Now is that school, are you comfortable with the resources that the school board has allocated to that school?

Barber:
This school, just take for instance, is one of the city schools, but recently the school board denied even giving them extra teachers to help with these children. See, what you have to look at is not just the ratio, but you have to look at where these students are performing in reading and math, and this is one of the schools where the kids are not performing well. They have a tremendous principal, but there is some personality thing between the principal and the chairman of the sch

Allen:
And they went back and did it.

Barber:
And they went back and re-

Holloway:
Now Greenwood, is this a middle school, maybe looks like.

Allen:
That's where most of the Seymour Johnson, the military students go. It's a very transient . . .

Barber:
See, what you're not seeing is they didn't allow your cameras to go to School Street, which is inner city, they didn't allow them to go to Dillard and see the overcrowding, they didn't allow you to go to the five schools that are 95% black and above. You don't see on these films the fact that, for instance, at Carver Heights, which is one of the inner city schools, 65.9% of the children perform below in math in the year-end test. Also, this film doesn't show that when the superinten

Allen:
That was Goldsboro Middle, right there.

Barber:
That's Goldsboro Middle.

Allen:
One thing about Greenwood Middle, that was the ABC's, the new ABC's laws, it will probably even make the situation even worse in Wayne County because it's labeling, it's ranking these schools, and Greenwood is ranked number one on the list. And people know that, people see that, and they want to go there. It might polarize it even more.

Barber:
Let me give you some statistics. For instance, the third graders in math in Wayne County, 78% of whites are above, but 21% of whites are below. But when it comes to black, 54% of third graders in Wayne County are below the average in the state.

Holloway:
Well, let's do this. We've got a few minutes left. What is your solution to this problem? Again, I know you probably can't state it very briefly, but in your own words.

Barber:
Number one, I think the school board should really go back and accept the plan that the two minority members, plus the chairman, voted on, which was a compromise plan. The plan they have set has still not been approved by the state.

Holloway:
And than plan is to do what?

Barber:
That plan was to focus on elementary schools and middle schools, to put magnet schools at all the middle schools, not to build an additional high school and destroy curriculums, and reduce classroom sizes in those inner-city schools.

Holloway:
Stan, what is the board saying is the solution?

Allen:
I think everybody is agreeing right now that the open-door policy has to be changed, they have to tighten up on student transfers, and I think that might be the starting ground, because almost everybody agrees that that's a problem. And then maybe they can build from that. If they can get that done, they can build from there to build up some of the city schools, and just entice people to go into the schools, just make those schools better.

Barber:
That won't be a solution as long as this plan that they have on the table. Now if it's accepted by the state, we'll have to go to court and there'll have to be a legal solution, because even if they change the open-door policy, the best schools and the newest equipment are all going to be outside of the city, so Goldsboro-we'll be like a doughnut, and Goldsboro will be the hole, and as you know, there's nothing in the hole.

Holloway:
We hope you all can fill that and fill the voids and work things out in Wayne County. And thank you for watching our program tonight, and we invite you to watch Black Issues Forum every Friday night at 11:00 on UNC-TV. Please contact us with your comments. Our telephone number is 919-549-7167. Our fax is -7168. E-mail us at bif@unctv.org, and visit us on the World Wide Web at www.unctv.org/bif. You'll find information on past episodes and additional information on this topic a

Join us next week, we'll take another look at equity in our public schools. This time we'll talk to some concerned parents from Wayne County and look at a little more detail on this, since we couldn't get the board members. Join us next week for the details. Thank you again for watching Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway. Have a blessed evening and a good night.

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