Holloway:
Hello, I'm Jay Holloway. Join us next for part two of a discussion on equity in education in our public schools in North Carolina. Tonight we'll look at both Wayne and Durham counties, and how they have struggled with allocating bond money, open transfers, and redistricting, and how it relates to race relations in those counties. It's next on Black Issues Forum.

[MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Jay Holloway, your host. On tonight's program we'll look closely at three issues that many of us face across the state when it comes to our public school district: allocating bond money, open transfers, and redistricting. And if they aren't handled carefully, they can produce serious problems with race relations. Tonight we welcome Joe Brown, a parent of three children in Wayne County public schools. Thank you Joe, Reverend Br

Brown:
How are you?

Holloway:
All righty. And also Phyllis Scott, who is a member of the Durham Public School Board. Phyllis, thank you for coming.

Scott:
Good to be here.

Holloway:
First of all, I just want to congratulate both of you for coming to talk on a serious issue, and especially in a time when we're encouraging more race relations discussions and across racial lines to discuss this important issue, and thank you both. All right. Reverend Brown. Let's talk about Wayne County. Last week we had a program, and unfortunately we invited the Wayne County School Board to come on this program to talk about the issues, but the issue is so racially divided i

Brown:
The first thing I have to do is correct, I have one son in the public school system, and I don't want people-one son, period! So I want to correct that real quick. But anyway, when the county merged, the county and city merged back in the early '90's, there were a lot of issues then that were not dealt with. The county was basically predominantly white, the city school system was predominantly black, when the system proceeded to merge, the issue of redistricting and just binding up some things that had gone on through the years, it never got dealt with. You ended up with a county, even the in the merged system now you still have an air of county and an air of city. And the members of the board basically lean toward county interests, so as a result what it spills over to looking like is that those individuals are concerned about the schools in the outer, in the suburbs and outside of Goldsboro, which is predominantly white, and the inner schools, the city schools, which are predominantly black, not getting the proper recognition in spending that they should get.

Holloway:
So you don't even have dialogue there now that much. Why is that?

Brown:
No dialogue. And there has been some effort, and I take great pride in talking about the effort that we've made because, you know, the school board has basically labeled Reverends Barber, Barnes and myself as rabble-rousers and trouble makers, and that has never been our intent. Our intent has always been to deal with this, not only from a political aspect, but it's a moral issue; it's following the commandments of Jesus, that he teaches us to love one another as he's loved us. And

Holloway:
Well let's move across Interstate 95 to Durham County. Ms. Scott, Durham County has been through some similar issues. You have a new superintendent. But is the board and the community that divided in Durham County, or what's your perspective on that situation?

Scott:
Well we of course have our racial issues, racial tensions like any community, probably in the country, I guess. But we dialogue. I don't know that the community would allow anything less than that. We listen, sometimes there is a lot of heat, but usually some light, too, and we talk to each other, listen to each other. And it hasn't always been easy, pleasant work, but we do continue to struggle with issues and try to be as fair and equitable to all the children and all the citizen

Holloway:
Was the board, even itself, divided amongst racial lines on many of those issues, or were you able to overcome some of that?

Scott:
Well we get lots of press about all of our 4-3 votes. We are a seven-member board and there are three African-Americans and four white members. And some of the most news-covered, news-worthy votes are unfortunately down racial lines, 4-3. Our superintendent vote most recently was a 4-3 vote. We have lots of 7-0 votes, we have all in the middle, 6-1, 5-2. I guess I've never put quite as much stock in how the actual votes come out. I don't know that we always have to agree. One of

Holloway:
Let me ask Reverend Barber. We have a clip on some of the problems the board has had there in Wayne County. But I think that was from about a year ago. Does the board, is the board still divided there, black and white, on these issues?

Brown:
On most of the critical issues, yes. It's very, very evident that when the votes come down, every one in a while the chairman, for one reason or another, will vote with the two African-American women.

Holloway:
The board chair.

Brown:
The board chair.

Holloway:
But with . . . oh, on occasions.

Brown:
On occasions. On occasions. It all but looks strategic, but I won't say it is, but in fact, someone said that sometimes that he votes that way so that it won't look racial, that, "I really feel like the others, but so it won't look racial, I'll vote with the two African American women." The one time that it was kind of interesting was then the board voted to stop having public comment, that was a very unique situation. The board said that they were tired of people coming up every m

Holloway:
Let's take a look at a clip here in Wayne County where I think one of the board members was very concerned about an issue coming up, and felt that they were kind of left out. Let's take a look at that now.

VIDEO SEGMENT:

Female:
I'd just like to ask a question of the board chairman. Due to the fact that this plan tonight is being presented as the board plan, and the Board of Education has not seen this presentation, I just want to know the legality of it. Are we in or out of compliance with board policy? I know that there are some board members who have never seen this presentation. END OF VIDEO SEGMENT

Holloway:
Okay, that was an issue where I think one of the board members, Reverend Brown, was unclear on what was about to happen. Is that still the situation now or are the pretty much together?

Brown:
Oh, far from together. Most recently, as far as a plan is concerned, the board has adopted a plan here recently that called for the building of one new high school in Wayne County, as well as doing some things for the elementary and middle schools curriculum-wise, structural-wise.

Holloway:
That's with the bond money.

Brown:
Yeah, with the bond money. The interesting thing, though, about this new plan that the board voted a majority to adopt, was basically the main mix of it was from a plan that was submitted by the two African-American members of that board. And their plan called for spending less than the $38 million, their plan did not call for the construction of any new high schools in Wayne County. It has been, from information that we've been able to gather, that to build any new high schools in

Holloway:
Now let's back up and explain this bond issue, where it came from, where the monies came from, and when that came about.

Brown:
Okay. This money came as a result from the bond referendum that was held last year during the election, and each county gets a percentage of that money. And the local boards have to submit a plan to the state board in order to draw down certain percentages of the money.

Holloway:
That happened after the merger of the systems.

Brown:
Oh, the bond referendum? Yes, oh yes, the system merged back in the early '90's.

Holloway:
And so as a result of that, that has, the allocation of those bond monies has created a real strong racial divide.

Brown:
It has, and it's sad to say, but it's true. Because what we are finding, and even with the Anonymous We and the work that we've been doing, the strangest thing I've seen in all of this is the fact that there are individuals, there are leading white businessmen in Wayne County that are supportive of us, we've met with them. We've sat behind closed doors and discussed the problem. They agreed with what we are saying. Some of them have even privately given Anonymous We money. But whe

Holloway:
Well let's move back to Durham County. Ms. Scott, that issue of the bond issue has not been a major problem in Durham, because the timing was different. Can you explain that?

Scott:
Well, . . .

Holloway:
Or is that true?

Scott:
Well, as I mentioned before, both of the former city and the county systems had been able to pass bond issues before the merger, so some of the capital needs, some of the building and remodeling was done actually after the two systems were merged, but it was from monies that had been raised from local bonds, but before that. We were allotted $22 million in the recent state bond, and we had already spent enough local money-you had to match that to get that from the state. We were able

Holloway:
So the key thing, and you have probably advised to other school districts around North Carolina, to get that out of the way before they do the merger.

Scott:
Right. If you're going to be asking-and we have magnet schools now, and we redrew attendance lines-we're depending on middle, elementary, we're in the second or third year of that now in Durham, and if you're going to ask parents to be sending their children to new schools, you want to be able to convince them and feel good that you're asking them to go to a school you'd want your own child to go to. So we had to able to feel good about the fairness and that all of our schools were g

Holloway:
Now that appears to be the root of some of the problems in Wayne County, how depending on who you ask that question to and where their kids are, and do you want your kids to go to that school. How do you all deal with that issue, and after it has been resolved, you have this thing called "open transfers." Let's talk about that right now. One of you explain what open transfers are, first.

Brown:
Open transfer, maybe I should let the board member define that. But with us, open transfer is where a child is allowed to transfer from one school to another with little resistance. In Wayne County, we have children crossing district lines or changing schools all through the year, as late as May, and the school year ends June. As late as May there were requests submitted to the board of education for some individuals to transfer for four or five weeks. That was on their agenda, and

Now let me share something with you, and this is really heartbreaking. Not too long ago one of the leading citizens in Wayne County went before the board of education. She was making a complaint because the school that she was sending her child to didn't offer Latin. And she was wanting to know why the board couldn't provide a Latin teacher there, and this sort of thing. This individual lives three to four blocks from Goldsboro High School, which is predominantly black, and had a class in Latin. That

Holloway:
She was unable to go to that school.

Brown:
Oh, she could've gone. But because the parents opted to send their child out to another school, that child wasn't there. Just four blocks up the street. Could've easily gone and gotten all of the Latin she wanted. So that's the kind of attitude and atmosphere that we're dealing with right now.

Holloway:
How does open transfer go in Durham County?

Scott:
Well actually, we're sort of going in reverse from it, it sounds like, from what Wayne County was doing. We started off with a student assignment plan, which had a fairly closed transfer policy, and there were specific guidelines for transfers. It had to be child care or hardship, you know, pretty specific things-supposedly. And that would've come into effect in '92. We did the student reassignment plan and tried to redraw some lines. What we found is that parents with the means fy want them to go here, there are lots of ways that the system is finagled, and whether it's by moving into another district or coming up with one reason or another, we found that parents-the we couldn't for

Holloway:
So it's beneficial for you. Let's do this, we only have a few minutes left. What are some of the solutions to this racial divide because you've done your re-districting, and you had the open enrollment and it may revert back to the two school system. That what appears to be happening here, but we're considering that here but it's a different issue. What are some of the solutions to improve dialogue in the counties where the strong racial divide is briefly?

Brown:
It's tragic to say, but racially, we're back to where we were in the late fifties and sixties. In my opinion, the only way to properly try to end this, is for people just to sit down and start talking with each other. One thing I heard Ms. Scott say, and I'm familiar with the Durham community, and the affairs of blacks, Ms. Allison and the whole group there, at least at some point, just sit down and talk, even if you disagree, and folks get red in the face and hot under the collar, y

Holloway:
Okay, serious dialogue, and affecting the children. Okay, Ms. Scott, what do you have to say?

Scott:
I would just agree, and I think it is in the best interest of the children, and that's what we should be about. All the children of North Carolina.

Holloway:
Well, I want to thank both of you for coming on the program and having this kind of dialogue, and we hope it inspires other community persons and board members across our diversity of North Carolina to do the same. Thank you both so much for being on the program. Scott/

Brown:
Thank you for having us.

Holloway:
And we want to thank you for watching our program tonight and we invite you to watch Black Issues Forum every Friday night at 11:00 on UNC-TV. Please contact us with your comments. Our telephone number is 919-549-7167. You may fax us at 919-549-7168. E-mail us at bif@unctv.org, or visit us on the World Wide Web at www.unctv.org/bif. You'll find information on past episodes and additional information on topics like this and other issues of concern to African-Americans and everyo

So, join us next week, for a profile of achievement of a high school student who's helping to change the image that young black males are being associated with crime. Thanks again for watching Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway. You have a blessed evening and a good night.

[MUSIC]