Holloway:
Three percent of the country's institutions of higher education are facing an uncertain future. How are these historically black colleges and universities going to survive the 21st Century? We'll answer that question next on Black Issues Forum.

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Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host. Tonight we'll examine historically black colleges and universities and how they struggle to survive, facing issues of diversity, funding, and recruiting the top black students. Well, what is their strategy to take them to the 21st Century? Well, to discuss these issues are Dr. Edward Ford, Chancellor of North Carolina A&T State University, and Prezell R. Robinson, President Emeritus of St. Augustine's C

Ford:
Jay, as both Dr. Robinson and I agree, unfortunately it is not level. Let me give you an example. If you take a look at the National Science Foundation's computer data for 1993-1994, you'll notice the fact that the 12-sorry, the 100 top research producing institutions in this nation, particularly in the areas of science and engineering, receive from the top ten federal agencies, including Department of Defense, Department of Energy, and the Department of Education. Approximately 12.7 billion dollars. Now in sharp contrast to that-by the way, there were no black campuses within that tier of 100 majority institutions in this particular data bank. Now if you take that on a comparison basis with the 81 top research producing institutions that are historically black, you find that they received during the same time period about 140 million dollars. So the difference a 12.7 billion and 140 million, you couldn't close that gap within the next 20 years.

Holloway:
Well let me make one other observation. I also know that A&T is one of the highest producing institution of PhD's or graduate students in engineering or science areas.

Ford:
That's correct. As a matter of fact, our campus produces at the baccalaureate degree level, more black engineers than any other university in the country, and we are number two behind Georgia Tech as far as Master's Degree production is concerned with regard to black engineers.

Holloway:
But yet, you aren't in the top tier of the funding.

Ford:
No, as a matter of fact, if you go down the list, until you get to the University of Southern California, which by the way is an institution which of course is private, that campus brought in about 141 million dollars during the course of that time period. So in effect then, one campus, Southern Cal, gained more dollars in terms of research productivity than did the top 81 historically black campuses during that time period in 1993-94 from those ten federal agencies, including, DOD, th

Holloway:
Dr. Robinson, from the private historically black college point of view, you are considered one of the deans of historically black colleges, and President of St. Augustine's for some 27 years or so. And how does that differ? I would imagine that already Chancellor Ford has a head start with state funding, but these historically black colleges that are private are starting from an even further disadvantaged point, could I say that.

Robinson:
Before I answer that question, Jay, let me just make a point relative to what my colleague and friend Chancellor Ford was saying about A&T producing engineers, the number. I want to tie to that the fact that not only is A&T producing more engineers than any university or college at the undergraduate level in the country, those engineers are competitive. I was just reading an article a few days ago where a large manufacturing company, whose name slips me at the moment, specifically&T engineering school. I think that says something. I just wanted to put that in, because . . .

Holloway:
He appreciates that.

Robinson:
Ed Ford's doing a great job over at A&T. Now back to the question you are raising about the playing field being level. The playing field certainly does not begin to be level where the private colleges and universities are concerned, in this state nor in the nation as a whole. If one reads the February issue of Philanthropy, that is the journal that has to do with giving to private colleges and universities, one will find for example, in the state of North Carolina, the private co

Holloway:
Well let me ask you, and shift just a moment, and talk about the mission of these institutions. Many were founded and started at the end of slavery, at a time when we had segregated societies. And some may perceive that we still have two separate systems of education, and why is there a need today for the mission of the historically black college to continue to survive and compete and thrive. One, we know from the A&T fact there, but what would you gentlemen say of why the mission is still necessary today?

Ford:
Well, Jay, you certainly were on target with relationship to the issue of the historical circumstance surrounding the start-up of these historically black universities, because in the 1850's and not sooner, these campuses out of necessity were, if you will, begun, having evolved from the bowels of institutionalized racism. The key of course here is the fact that these campuses, that reality to the contrary not withstanding, never pronounce within their charters that they would be race-exclusive. They were heavily if not predominantly black, but there were not exclusionary with regard to the fact that they said 'no, whites are not allowed.' That's not true. And that means of course that when the Hamptons and A&Ts and others began their programs in the 80's and 90's, before the turn of the century year 1900, that they were open sesames. But they concentrated on the importance of ensuring the fact that the newly freed slaves were ready for the competition of the next decade and beyond.

Holloway:
And so, is that mission still relevant today, Dr. Robinson? I mean, slavery's been over for over a century now.

Robinson:
In 1863, when Lincoln issued his famous Emancipation Proclamation, and later when the war was over, there were approximately four million newly freed slaves, persons who had been in slavery. Now, there were a few institutions, there was for example Chaney in Pennsylvania, and then there was Wilberforce in Ohio-there's some debate as to which one was first, I'm not sure myself at the moment which was. But at any rate, they came about, about some time around 1853, 1854, about that t

Holloway:
I'd like to move to that in just a second, because there is a study that just came out, Educational Testing Service. But before we move to that, as we've talked about the mission, a significant number of these historically black colleges have diversified their enrollment to include more whites. And I'd like to take a look at a graphic here to show that point. This first graphic that we're going to see now shows the 1994 white enrollment in black universities nationwide. You notice that the Fayetteville State ranked number seven in the country, with 31% white enrollment. Conversely, Bluefield State University had 92% white enrollment. And the next slide after that one shows the remaining top four black schools with white enrollment, and in North Carolina we see Elizabeth City State University with 25%, and Winston Salem with 22%. And another point to note here is that the top fourteen black schools in the country with white enrollment, North Carolina has at least three of those and they're all state funded. Did you all see those? Would you care to comment on that?

Ford:
Well I think we would make certainly the common observation that in 1981, the University of North Carolina system signed the now well-known consent decree with the federal courts that was designed to ensure the movement, if possible, toward greater diversification across the entire 16-campus array. As a matter of fact, the consent decree's pronouncements were within a certain number of years, hopefully the racial composition of the five historically black campuses would approach 15% as far as white enrollment was concerned, and conversely, as far as the historically white campuses were concerned, their enrollment would equal or surpass 10% as far as black.

Holloway:
Where are we with that? That seems to . . .

Ford:
As a result of that pronouncement, there were minority president's scholarships that were given to both sets of institutions, that is, the predominantly black campuses received, as you recall, scholarship dollars for incoming Caucasian students, and conversely relative to the white institutions, as far as incoming black students were concerned. There have been some variations such as the one that you flashed on the screen showing that in excess of 30% of the total enrollment at Fayetteigure with regard to one or two of the other campuses. At the other end of the scale, North Carolina A&T State University has an enrollment which hovers around 9% Caucasian since the days of the consent decree. So there's variance between the highs and lows. But the point is also the reality that the consent decree demanded that there would be some attempt to move toward equalization as far as resources are concerned. For example, about 40 millio&T, as well as some others. But all of that to the contrary notwithstanding, the fact still remains that historical circumstance, basically, has a lot to do with the nature of whether the ebb and flow is up or down as far as the movement toward gr

Holloway:
Have your colleagues at the traditionally white institutions at the UNC system diversified as much as your colleagues at HBCU's?

Ford:
As much so if not more so.

Holloway:
Oh really. Dr. Robinson, what about the point from the historically black colleges from a private viewpoint? There's not the motivation there, or is it, to diversify as much as the public institutions?

Robinson:
Yes, I think the desire is there, there's no question about it. And unfortunately, the perception is out there that the private HBCU's are not aggressive in seeking out white students. I would like to say to you, and to the people of North Carolina, that that is not true, that we make it known very clearly that we are interested in any and all students who feel that they can benefit from attending one of the private HBCU's in this state. Now one of their big problems is, however,

Holloway:
Well let's do this now. I was going to show a comparable graphic at this time on the black enrollment, but I'll hold that though. And we talked about being able to compete for these qualified or outstanding black students. Just recently in this publication, Black Issues in Higher Education, it appears that the Educational Testing Service, which is independent of any historical black college, has come up with some new independent information that these historically black colleges are now better able to justify their mission in training more students, particularly the hard sciences and engineering, and onto graduate school, and doing much better than their traditionally white institution counterparts. Is that good information for you, gentlemen?

Ford:
I think that that's an enormously important aspect of our whole struggle with regard to the efficacy of our historically black universities, Jay. As a matter of fact, that ETS study to which you referred apparently shows rather conclusively that not only is there a propensity for a larger and increased numbers of black students attending historically black universities at the graduate school level, to opt for more focus on programs including engineering and business and accounting and economics, etc. And concurrently, that as these youngsters move into these programs, the retention rates supersede those of their Caucasian counterparts in the traditionally Caucasian institutions, and these youngsters do well once they graduate from these same programs. I think that I would suggest that that's not really totally surprising, because our reviews and interviews with our students as they graduate shows us conclusively that (a) they do well once they move into these programs at the graduate school level, and secondly, they compete as well as if not better than their Caucasian counterparts once they are in the career field at the graduate or professional level.

Holloway:
Dr. Robinson, your colleagues in the United Negro College Fund, you all have probably known that for a long time too, but does this information give you more substantial documentation to justify that?

Robinson:
Yes, Jay, we've said this from time immemorial. We've known this for a long time. But let's face the reality. This time the information comes out from a detached source that has no compelling interest, shall we say, in the data that it has provided. And I think there is going to be, whether we like it or not, whether it is right or wrong, I think it's going to be received with much more openness and receptivity now that it has come from a non-black organization, highly respected

Ford:
Jay, there's also an interesting sidebar relationship to what Dr. Robinson has just indicated, that being that increasing the Fortune 500 corporate sector managers are beginning to recognize the fact that there is an inextricable relationship between their survival and growth and movement ahead in the decade of the year 2000 and beyond, is directly related to how well they are doing as it relates to this whole issue of diversification. For example, the data from the National Science Foundation and also from the National Research Council, indicates the fact that probably by about the year 2008, 2009, 2010, our nation's going to have to be able to produce about 11,000 PhD's in engineering and sciences a year just to stay even internationally as far as competition's concerned. There is no way that they can reach those numbers absent the dependence upon, not just simply majority institutions but also in this instance, the nine historically black institutions that have colleges or schools of engineering. Particularly engineering as far the area of the PhD is concerned.

Robinson:
May I just add this caveat to what my colleague Dr. Ford just said. As we approach the year, about 2010, 2012, somewhere between 75 and 80% of the workforce is going to consist of minorities, foreign nationals, and women. Now where are we going to get that trained, technically-oriented workforce if we do not pour more money into places like A&T and the private institutions that will be producing people of quality.

Holloway:
Well, let me say this, because that's a good question and we have just under three minutes left, believe it or not. We had a graphic also to show the funding, and we don't have time to show this, but also as one might expect here in North Carolina, of all the funding of the state-funded institutions, our historically black colleges fall well below the traditionally white institutions. But also, in light of affirmative action being threatened in other states like Texas and Californ

Ford:
Absolutely. As a matter of fact, increasingly the corporate sector, as well as the professional managers, are beginning to recognize the fact that their very survival is directly related to the survival of historically black universities. Take a look for example, at A&T's budget. We come in at about 126-127 million dollars for '97-'98. But less than 42% of that budget comes from the state. That means we pick up the slack in terms of our relationships with federal agencies like NASA, our relationships with Fortune 500 companies like Ford, GM, Honeywell, etc., contracts and grants, plus of course some from tuition and fees. But increasingly, these non-state related agencies, such as DOD, such as the Department of Energy, are recognizing the fact, as are their counterparts in Fortune 500 companies, that in order for them to survive and achieve at the turn of the decade, they're going to have to have more input and more talent that comes from these same historically black universities.

Holloway:
Dr. Robinson, just less than a minute. Why is it important that these same corporations support the private institutions?

Robinson:
Well, one cannot draw a discrete finite line between the private and the public really, so what effects one, effects the other in degree or kind. And certainly, it's going to be critically important as we look down the road, as we move into this new millennium, this 21st century, it's going to be tremendously important that both the private and public sectors continue increasingly to support these institutions.

Holloway:
Thank you so much, Dr. Robinson, Dr. Ford for your time. Time has run out very quickly. We want to remind you that since their beginning in the early 1800's, HBCU's have survived despite the odds. Now as we look toward the future, the odds are just as great. However, there is much hope for the years to come. HBCU's, historically black colleges and universities, are making great progress in improving themselves and their students. Through strong leadership and dedication, they

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