Holloway:
Segregation, hate crimes, prejudice and other forms of racism, they may exist on colleges campuses across our state and across our country. We'll tackle this issue and others next on Black Issues Forum.

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Holloway:
Good evening, I'm your host, Jay Holloway. Tonight we're addressing the problem of race relations on college campuses and ways institutions of higher learning can better approach the problem. To discuss this issue, we have with us Tony Deifel, he's Executive Director of the Institute for Public Media Arts and the Ism Project; and Michelle Johnson, she's with North Carolina Public Allies, and she's also with Youth Voice Radio. Thank you both for being with us today to discuss this

Deifel:
It's great to be here.

Holloway:
Thank you for being here. And before we get into that though, to begin our discussion on diversity, let's start with that part of it, let's first listen to what Dr. Michael Eric Dyson, author of Race Rules: Navigating the Color Line, had to say about college and diversity as a panelist on a multi-media diversity teleconference. Here it is.

Dyson:
[RECORDED COMMENT] . . . so that when I tell kids, if you go to college, and you know, people warn you, "when you go there, don't change, don't be a sellout." I tell my son, "if you to college and you ain't changing, you wasting your time and my money!" You've got to change, and so you're going to talk to somebody who looks different than you, you've got to interact with somebody who's going to challenge your assumption, who's going to tell you that it's not about black and white, i

Female:
[RECORDED COMMENT] That's great. I wanted to move onto the next question from John Okamura, at . . . .

Holloway:
Well, that's, Michael Dyson is not stranger to North Carolina or the UNC system schools. Actually, that was in our studio as a part of the Ism Project, part of your project, where you dealt with over 10,000 college students and several different colleges and universities nationwide and some in North Carolina. Let me get your reaction to the comment he just made about, I guess, coming to college with an open mind and not coming to just support your views that you already have about

Deifel:
I actually would like to reflect on a recent experience I had last week. I went to Harvard Business School just to visit a class to check it out, and I was struck that over 50% of the student body at Harvard Business School in graduate school is international. And when I sat in the class, they do case study method, and they got people to argue with each other, and people would bring in their backgrounds, and one guy was Filipino and that was his experience, and they really start arguing and it became a diversity discussion really, and they kind of see that as, that's the way to teach the future kind of leaders of America, through business. And I think that's exactly why Affirmative Action is important on college campuses, is to bring that difference, because only with that dissonance can learning really happen.

Holloway:
So you think that kind of dissonance and arguing is really going to bring about some learning, because your differences are right on the table and it's very clear where you stand.

Deifel:
Yeah, if somebody doesn't step on your toes, you're going to stay in the same place the rest of your life, you know?

Holloway:
So Michelle, what do you think about that?

Johnson:
I think that Dr. Dyson definitely has a point, that one should use a higher education opportunity to expose oneself to culture's all over the world, as well as the ones that are available right within your own back yard. However, I also think it's important for students to come to campus and find a place where they feel comfortable at least part of the time. I think that is the reason why women's centers should be an option for students on campuses, why black cultural centers, why

Holloway:
Well how do you deal with this opportunity to come in and affirm yourself and be with people like you, while also an opportunity to deal with this distance and this discussion of two different viewpoints, so that you can learn.

Johnson:
By being a complex person.

Holloway:
[laughs]

Johnson:
I mean, that's . . .

Deifel:
You're just not one identity, you're like many identities and so, yeah.

Holloway:
Well we are complex people. Why do we still have these problems with race relations?

Deifel:
Because it's threatening, because it's difficult stuff. I mean one of the things that's hard about, I mean, we're sitting here talking on TV, but yet TV doesn't allow for us to really show the struggle, the difficulty and the darkness, really, around, look at yourself, because whenever you're dealing with people who are different than you, really what you're doing is reexamining yourself, and that's hard to do. And that's really hard to do, I think, you know, when people are watchin

Johnson:
I'm not too sure if I understand your first comment about television being . . . I missed that. You're saying television . . .

Holloway:
Good question, I was going to ask that.

Deifel:
Well I think one of the things is that we're sitting here on television, you know, and to what degree might we be a little bit more guarded in talking about some of these issues-and I'll just tell you with me. To what degree would I be more guarded because it's television and it's going out there, and I can't engage with the viewer in a relationship that would allow for me to understand where they're coming from, and them to understand where I'm coming from, because it's just like weng about it. So I think it's harder to get into some of the difficulties.

Holloway:
One of the things that John Hope Franklin, who's right here in this state, says, that of course, what we need is more dialogue amongst different races that's open and honest and meaningful. And that's one of the things we wanted to get at least with you today. At least we have different races . . . . Your background in this Ism Project, you actually had people to get an opportunity through videotape to actually bring some of these things out to light. Can you share what some of the things that came out of that project? And it was part of that discussion we just saw with Michael Dyson. What were some of the findings that came out of that?

Deifel:
I'll tell you a couple things, but Michelle also is in one of the classes at UNC-Chapel Hill. We've worked with 19 colleges and universities, over 60 faculty members and over 350 students in a class model that we have. And the class model's really simple: all it is is that students make video diaries articulating their point of view on the world, related to the communities, their sense of identity, and they complete power to do whatever they want with that. And then in the next part of the class, they have to form relationships with people across lines of difference and collaborate and compromise and negotiate to make a video together, which, what happens there, people engage difference, they engage risk, intention, and all the kind of stuff. And to hook that into a learning experience, how to then, you think about these issues in a different way. So it's not just simply watching videos, but it's actually, you know, how do you engage in relationships around this stuff that really challenges how people see the world?

Holloway:
What did you learn? You were in the first Ism Class Project, what did you learn with the negotiation and the relationship issues?

Johnson:
Well, I think each student would have learned something different. One of the things I was sharing with Tony on the way over here today is that I participated in the Isms project when I was a senior, and it was the spring semester of my senior year, so I wasn't focused on a lot of things! And the things I was focused on probably weren't going to help me graduate! But in general, one of the things that I learned, which was very important: eventually, the group that I joined to makarance or to have people make comments or touch you suggestively. And I went to the club, and I was just sort of like, "well, I got the night off!" [laughs]

Holloway:
Well, let me ask you, why is it often-Tony and I were talking about this off-camera before the show-why is it often that when you bring up the race relations discussion that both older adults, and I guess in this case, youth or college students quickly move the discussion to other diversity issues, and sometimes away from the issues and discussion of race?

Johnson:
I'm not too much what you're saying, Mr. Holloway!

Holloway:
You just did that!

Johnson:
Oh, I was just bringing . . .

Holloway:
As an example.

Johnson:
I was bringing to you how I was going to deal with the community that I hadn't really thought about before I entered. And I mean, I think within the United States, being a citizen of the world, that there is no way that you can look at issues of diversity in black or white; that we are no longer, we no longer have the privilege or the opportunity . . .

Deifel:
Or with just race.

Johnson:
Yeah. To just think about race. I mean, we have to band together, in my opinion, especially as a person of color, with people who are oppressed across the world, across a wide variety of issues. I mean, we have to form coalitions of poor people, of working class people, of people of color, of gay, lesbian and bisexual and transgender people. Our communities are so small in and of themselves that without coalition, we can't accomplish anything, or we can't transform.

Holloway:
Tony, have you noticed that often these discussions in general are brought about mostly by those that are in the minority on these types of discussions, as opposed to the majority?

Deifel:
Well, being a white man, I'm very aware of my privilege to not have to talk about these issues, and I can find ways of being in certain communities or working in certain ways where it just doesn't come up as an issue. So I try to take an effort to do that, but I think that does happen, I mean, I think if you're from a subordinate group, is what academicians would call it, you're very aware of the other, and because of that, you think about it more regularly, it meets your interest in

Holloway:
And you acknowledge that that's a minority view within your culture.

Deifel:
Yeah. I mean, it's hard for people with, I think, the more privileged you are, the harder it is to identify and recognize how you're privileged. I'm very aware of that.

Johnson:
To follow up to Tony, and my personal experience, I think I've found people who are oppressed to be actually less likely to look at oppression across boundaries. That, you know, I have participated in joint meetings of the Black Student Movement at UNC-Chapel Hill and BGLAD, which is Bisexual, Gays, Lesbians and Allies for Diversity, and have seen the two groups basically like, "what are you talking about? We are the oppressed!" That you know, when oppressed peoples get together,

Deifel:
It's called hierarchy of oppression.

Johnson:
"I'm more oppressed than you!" "No, I was more oppressed!" "My people have been for 400 years!" "My people-the Holocaust-the this, the that!" You know, so I'm not seeing, when I'm interacting with people, coalition building, this openness, this understanding of the commonalties of oppression. What I see most often is again, the hierarchy of oppression.

Deifel:
One of the things I think happens around differences, when you engage difference, your first reaction when you come from a place of privilege, whether it's gender or race or whatever, you say, "I've never thought of that before." It's not even just privilege. I think anytime you interact with anybody who's different than you, it's like, "I've never thought about that before," and then the next step is, "I've never had to think about that before." And that crosses a line, it's like,

Johnson:
Ageism.

Deifel:
Ageism, just tons of stuff. And while it's powerful to find connections between all of those, at the same time, it can individualize stuff so folks will then talk about their angle on oppression and get on a soapbox around that, and then aren't open to the engaging in difference and looking at themselves, it's more about being preachy. And I think that's a fine line that I think you always have to walk in coalition building. It's really hard.

Holloway:
What about the generational differences? You know, race relations has been a problem for a long time and it looks like it still is here, and the discussions move from different coalitions and different groups. But what about the generational viewpoint? Do you feel that the generation before you, your or our parents' generation has done any good or bad to affect where we are today?

Johnson:
I've actually thought about that, and when I was a student at Chapel Hill I had the opportunity to have a discussion with some students and some parents about the differences and how people perceive change. One of the things that was apparent to me is that older generations, especially of black people, tend to think of things in the matter of "we had nothing, we came from nothing, and now look how much we have access to. This is wonderful, this is great, be happy. I didn't have thabout what happened in so-called Jim Crow in the 20's; we're not talking about what happened in 1865. There seems to be no comprehension that well into the 70's segregation was alive and well in your neighborhood, and is alive and well in 1997!

Holloway:
Well that's what I was about to bring up now, going into '98, we've got segregation in public schools now in some instances. Some would say that the historically black colleges still are segregated. And then on the larger predominate campuses, you have segregated societies in dormitories or dorm clusters or groups.

Johnson:
What's the difference between segregation and choice, though? I think that's something that we have to talk about.

Deifel:
Because what you were talking about is the difference between-and Troy Duster, who's on our advisory board and who's at the UC Berkeley, talks about the difference between access and engagement. I mean, the 60's and 70's were about access. Now it's about engagement, and I think young people are really-it's at a different point. We have very popular bands, like Hootie and the Blowfish and stuff that are integrated, and you have people that are coming from mixed racial backgrounds fr

Holloway:
Well, that's interesting. Let's move that discussion of Affirmative Action now, in terms of, that may have some impact on the access or even potential for engagement if you don't have the opportunity. California's already gone to that now. What are your views on this whole Affirmative Action situation, how it may could one day affect North Carolina?

Deifel:
Well based on the Ism Class, to bring you back to the Ism Class, we very deliberately have the professors in the classes make sure that the class is diverse, because there's just no way you can engage difference unless it's diverse. And so if you have the premise like Michael Dyson was talking about in terms of dissonance and differences can really breed learning, then you have to ensure that that's going to be there. And at the same time, all across the 19 schools we work with, stu

Johnson:
Well I think there has to be a tremendous amount of education from both sides about what Affirmative Action is and what it means. I am distressed when I see commercials, when I hear commentary, or when I read commentary about Affirmative Action and quotas. Quotas have not been legal in this country in I don't know how many years, so when I'm dealing with students, a lot of times I hear "Well, there's a quota, there's a quota, there's a quota!" There is no quota. There are goals, the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill has a goal that they would like to represent each culture within the state population on their campus. Black people are underrepresented at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. We make up a good 20 to 30% of the state population, yet we only make up between 9 and 12% of the campus population at Chapel Hill. So it's about opportunity, it's about goals, it's about opening doors, and also it's about the acknowledgment that America is not a meritocracy, that people are not given opportunities to receive higher education based upon only test scores. People aren't given jobs only based upon their resume, only based upon some kind of quantitative data, that someone can go, "You're 98 and she's 97, therefore you get the job."

Holloway:
Did you receive any kind of perceived or real pressure or influence from others that you were there because of some of those reasons?

Johnson:
No, I've always known why I'm here. I'm here by the grace of God, every place I go! So if someone is saying it's a low score or a high score, they're completely missing out on their understanding as human beings on this earth, Jay, you know?

Holloway:
We just have a couple more minutes. Let's move now to the whole class structure, because there was some discussion about that. That it's more than just the race thing, but there may be some class and economic differences. Any comments either one of you would like to make on that?

Deifel:
Well class is so invisible and one of the things we learned with the Ism schools-like Dartmouth was one of our schools, and in the Dartmouth class there were people that came from middle class and lower class, but when they got to college, they were all of a sudden able to interact and get away with really being from a different class, and so we found that students are less likely to engage on issues of class. And we're still, frankly, puzzled about how to get at that. I mean, it's

Johnson:
Tony we've been brainwashed. I mean, we live in a country that says class does not exist, that we don't have classes, that we're not Britain, we're not France, we're not all these other places, and that's definitely not true. You know, opportunities are available to some of us because of the amount of money we own, -not the kind of money we own, but the amount of money that we have access to and the kind of property that we own.

Holloway:
So did you find in your project that students seem to identify more along class structures than race, or was it . . .

Johnson:
Well, I think . . .

Deifel:
We found across the 19 campuses definitely more race. And class would come up, but it was just a harder one to get into, much harder.

Johnson:
And when you think about it, Mr. Holloway, when you get into a college campus, you all of a sudden have this-I wouldn't say classless thing, the class would blend, because the people who come in from a lower economic backgrounds, because they're in a college setting, all of a sudden are raised up, you know, just automatically, the simple fact that they attend college. Now with people who are coming from upper middle class and upper class backgrounds, I think they could sort of blend now. That's part of hip-hop culture, that's part of popular culture, so what you wear is no longer an indication of what class you come from.

Holloway:
Tony, a few more seconds, you want to have the last word?

Deifel:
I guess the last thing I would say is that young people are fairly sophisticated on this, and one of the things I see around, I guess an ageism thing maybe, is people that are my age and older a lot of times won't recognize-they'll talk down to young people and they'll kind of tell them they way it was in the Sixties and stuff like that. And young people are really sophisticated, and if they're given the space to really engage these issues, they might create some of the, talk about s

Holloway:
Thank you both for being here. The time has run completely out. And the problems facing college campuses mirror really what's going on in society, yet it should be on these campuses that cultural diversity and the exchanging of ideas should thrive, creating possible examples for our greater society to follow. After all, there institutions are supposed to be for preparing our future leaders to go out into an ever-changing world to work and live. So if students can leave these institutions with new information and skills on improving race relations, then their higher learning may be one step further to helping all of us improve our race relations throughout North Carolina and this country. Thank you for watching Black Issues Forum today. Please contact us with your comments. Our telephone number is 919-549-7167. Fax us at 919-549-7168. E-mail us at bif@unctv.org, or visit us on the World Wide Web at www.unctv.org/bif. You'll find more information on race relations, past episodes and additional information on concerns and issues for African-Americans and others.

Thank you for watching Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway. You have a blessed evening and a good night.

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