Holloway:
How often do you hear from college professors about education and other issues? Well, tonight, you will on Black Issues Forum next. [MUSIC] Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host. Tonight, we're talking with two distinguished college professors about a lot of issues - the profession of teaching, Affirmative Action, student performance, accountability - a whole lot of issues. So, onto tonight's show, let me introduce you, first, to Dr. Donna Oliver. She's Director of the Division of Professional Studies and Chair of the Department of Curriculum and Instruction at Bennett College in Greensboro. Welcome.

Oliver:
Thank you.

Holloway:
And also Dr. Watona Parker. She is Associate Professor in the Department of Education at Meredith College in Raleigh. Welcome, both of you, to the program.

Parker:
Thank you.

Holloway:
We have just talked before the program about a range of issues but Affirmative Action has been and continues to be quite an interesting topic of discussion and an issue where there are different viewpoints. You all may not disagree on Affirmative Action but I know that you have some very serious concerns on who defines what we're talking about, Affirmative Action and what it really it means. Let's talk about that and what it means to you in education.

Oliver:
Let me just say one thing before we start the conversation and that is, if you think about the plight of African-Americans historically and look at the broad picture, it wasn't until just recently that we began an existence of where we could become validated as to who we are and what we are. Before now, we were, in my opinion, living an existence of invalidation and ostensibly being invisible, not even knowing that we existed. So, our struggle to become a part of the larger American society was hampered by those kinds of things. Now, when you talk about Affirmative Action and what it means, as Toni and I were talking earlier, and she might want to pick up here, is we never really defined it.

Parker:
Right! And what we have done is we have let others define it for us.

Holloway:
Well, let's define it right now.

Parker:
So, it became a definition of quotas and, of course, that sent bells and whistles off into the community in terms of, "Okay, I'm not going to get this job because they need the African-American." And then what happened, as Donna pointed out earlier, is that when that became the case, it was almost like we got the job and we weren't qualified for the job, which, again, I think, invalidates us as a people.

Oliver:
Absolutely.

Holloway:
Good point.

Oliver:
And, so, what happens is it has now taken off. When anybody says "Affirmative Action," they think that means they have to have a certain percent of this, whereas that is not what the intent was. It was to level the playing field, where my qualifications, if my qualifications were as good as your qualifications, I would be considered rather than not be considered for this position because of my race. And I think that is the key and I think many African-Americans today are incensed by that generally assumed definition of quotas. We don't want to be in a position because they just had to have one. We want to be there because of our qualifications and our competence. The other thing is that we have too many definitions for Affirmative Action and whenever a new one comes up, we all jump on that bandwagon, it gets national attention, and we believe it. So, we lose the original intent. And it is important to get back to the original intent which Toni has so beautifully described.

Holloway:
I guess in our state it doesn't help the fact, and it was actually about seven years ago when Helms and Harvey Gantt ran and the famous commercial of the white hand and the black hand, implying just exactly what you said. So, many whites in our state and probably around the country really feel that way. In the profession of education, whether it's K-12 or higher education, there are trends around the country and I guess here in North Carolina, too, that not as many blacks, whether it's male or female, are getting into the teaching profession at whatever level. How is the threat of dismantling Affirmative Action affecting your profession?

Oliver:
Well, I think one of the problems that we're facing is that there won't be a pool of African-American professors, teachers, in high education for our students to see. I think coming from both a predominantly black institution and a predominantly white institution, that all of our students, both black and white and Hispanic and Asian, need to see a diverse population that actually teaches and interacts at the institutions. Unfortunately, even during the heyday of Affirmative Action, there wasn't a lot in terms of having African-American professors on college campuses and the pool is so small and, of course, the United States has so many colleges and universities who try to pull from that same pool that, unfortunately, what I see is probably a less number of African-Americans going through school saying that, "I'm going to go get the master's and I'm going to go get the doctorate," and pursuing higher education as a career choice. There's so many other opportunities for African-Americans now, than when both of us were in school, that teaching is so far down on the list and our children need to see us in those roles.

Holloway:
Where's the greatest need? At the K-12 or the higher education level now for black teachers?

Oliver:
Oh, wow! I don't know if I would say that one is greater than the other.

Parker:
That's true, that's true.

Oliver:
I think it's equally important but when you look at our K-12 schools today, everyone knows that the student populace is becoming more and more diverse while those teaching are becoming less and less diverse, which means there's a lack of cultural synchronization between the teacher and the student who sits in that classroom. This is why we have more African-American males being labeled as 'special education' students. Not because they don't have the ability to learn and be successful but because the teacher may not understand that student's behavior or the communication pattern of that student. All of the research indicates very clearly that when teachers are in-tune with and respect student norms, such as behavior and communication, then the student tends to become more involved with his or her learning which means academic achievement goes up. Now, as Toni mentioned, one of us being from a historically black college-me, Bennett College-and a predominantly white school, there's a difference on the college campus and I'm shifting here but at Bennett you do see a lot of African-Americans, males and females, with a Ph.D. That's a number one inspiration for those young women at Bennett to say, "She did it-I can do it," and there are some rewards for doing it. Very quickly, if I may just share a personal story here. We had a professor just this past week who defended her dissertation, having taught at Bennett for several years with a master's degree. Being a small, historically black school for women, where we emphasize and promote women as leaders, we took some of those students to this professor's defense. Every one of them left saying, "I'm going to do that." And these are young women we're preparing to be K-12 teachers and they want to do that, too, but the point is the aspiration is not stopping now with the bachelor's degree or the master's but they're saying, "This was wonderful and I'm going to do it."

Holloway:
Let me ask Dr. Parker-there was some recent research that was documented both in the Chronicles of Higher Education and the Black Issues in Higher Education-that there's a recent independent study showing the difference between what historically black colleges do to train students - and I actually think that we have a graphic to show that - where the retention rate of the black students that go on to graduate school is higher - those of from historically black colleges. And we have that graphic up now - 82% of those that go on to graduate school from historically black student institutions continue on through graduation, whereas 66% from traditionally white schools. Could you address how you see that unique role? There probably aren't many, I'm assuming, like you at Meredith, certainly, percentage-wise compared to Bennett. (Laughter)

Parker:
That's probably true. Again, it's that pool and why am I at an historically white institution, what is my role there, and what do I see my role as? I think that the public has to know that. I think in higher education everything that goes into being at a higher education institution, which is not only our role in terms of being role models for the students that are there, but also in terms of getting our career off of the floor in trying to do things. In research institutions, you have professors, both white and black and across the diverse population in trying to get tenure and the different things that have to be done. The same thing goes with institutions that are strictly liberal arts, small institutions. There are different standards for tenure but they are there and there are things that you have to do. I think that in a predominantly white institution I want my students to see that there is a place for us to go, that "Look at me. I did do this." And what I relish is the opportunity to talk with black students, but not only black students, with white students and with female students about, "What are the opportunities out there for us? Where can we go and how do you get there?"

Holloway:
Let's talk about that gender aspect you both have in common at these colleges-at all-female institutions-from two different aspects. Why did the advantage for a female to go to an all-female institution?

Parker:
I think Donna pointed out that one of the first things was leadership-was the opportunity to take those leadership roles and it's not so much, I think, that females cower to a predominantly male institution but I do think that sometimes you sit back and you think, "Well, they will do it," whereas at an all-female institution there is no "they." You're it and, so, you take the role and you speak up and you don't feel embarrassed about expressing certain ideas-that somebody in class is going to say, "Oh, you don't know what you're talking about." And, also, you can talk about from this perspective, from the female perspective, and, so, it's all of those things and more that really encourage young women to look at an all-female institution.

Holloway:
What about the race aspect when it compares to the gender aspect in a traditionally white female institution? The black women, I'm assuming, are also having to deal with their racial identity and their gender identity. I don't know if you want to speak unique at Meredith but how do they deal with that?

Parker:
Well, I think it takes a special kind of student to go to a predominantly white institution. I think there's certain things about that student that have to be there. I think both Donna and I went to predominantly white institutions as undergraduates and I think it's a comfort level, I think it is trying to make your place there, to let people know that you are there and that your needs need to be met in terms of the institution. It's not that I want to be seen as black but I also don't want you to forget that I am in this institution and I think that is important, that I am validated, that I have traditions, also, that would fit into the traditions of this institution, that I want to make my mark. And I've asked past graduates of Meredith who are African-American, "When you got here, why did you stay?" and it is because they did feel that that was something that they could do here, that they could make that mark, that they could say, "I went to Meredith College and I felt that I was a part of that institution." And there are a number of women that you run into-of course, Meredith College is always known by the ring-that you know that they went to Meredith and they're quite successful and they're able to interact in any kind of community and that's the push.

Holloway:
And Bennett is the only African-American female institution of higher education in North Carolina?

Oliver:
In North Carolina. Only one of two in the nation, of course. I think, as Toni has alluded, it is important for those of us who can to go to those predominantly white schools and make that mark. There are two sides of that. I lets others know, too, that we are equal and capable. At Bennett now, where we have predominantly African-American students-we do have some non-African-American students there-one thing that we've had a dialogue about lately at the institution is being careful not to get too into our ethnic identity so that when the students graduate and they're out there in the real world, which is quite different from the community at Bennett College, they're able to function. And we find-just as with the Meredith rings, we have the Bennett bells-wherever you go in this nation, you run across a Bennett bell and they are in key leadership positions. One of two African-American female superintendents in the State of North Carolina-only two-one is a Bennett graduate. So, these are the kinds of roles you see our women tending to be in because of the leadership aspect. They begin very early taking on leadership roles that they didn't even think they were capable of doing or had the nerve to do.

Holloway:
Are these major initiatives of other campuses to encourage leadership in the education field as well because we started talking about that?

Parker:
Yes, yes.

Holloway:
And, certainly, Bennett would be for black females but is there any special emphasis at Meredith to encourage black females to take leadership roles in education?

Parker:
In education, yes. We have a number of principals and assistant principals who are in leadership roles who are graduates of Meredith College. Again, coming back to that education piece, however, because there are so many other areas that we can go into-just the doors being opened up by Affirmative Action, that that field was a little level, that we could be considered on the same merit as other people-we have taken that up, we have gone into those positions, and we've kind of left teaching for others to do. Those who may have the call stronger. I contend there are probably a number of African-American students on college campuses throughout the State of North Carolina who really would feel comfortable teaching children.

Holloway:
Well, let's talk about that. What would you say to parents watching this program or young students that had not thought of education or teaching as a field and what can you say to them to encourage them to pursue that as a career?

Oliver:
We have to do that every day. (Laughter) Both of us or we wouldn't have any students in our colleges to prepare as teachers, but I do think, just as it was for me 20 some years ago and probably even 50 some years ago, most of us who go into teaching go because we feel it as a calling. I mean, money has never the carrot that was dangled in front of us when it came to choosing a profession. So, we still see that today and we do see that at Bennett-that they are very capable young women and we are very proud to see that some of our top students now are choosing teaching contrary to what national reports would have you believe and many of them are choosing it because they are so disturbed by what they see happening in K-12 schools today with our African-American and other students of color. You know, when you think of the term 'at risk'-when we think of that term, we normally think, "Who are the students who are considered at risk?" They are usually poor people and people of color. Alright? So, our young women are saying that has got to change. Those students aren't at risk. What's at risk is the preparation of teachers not knowing how to teach culturally, responsively, to these students. So, one thing that we emphasize at Bennett is how to be a culturally responsive teacher so that you can, indeed, make sure that you create a classroom where students feel bonded to one another, they feel respected by each other, they feel connected by each other and the cultural integrity of no one is lost. And that's easier said than done but that is something all of us, I think, whether we're at a predominantly white schools or predominantly black schools, are trying to do with all of the young women that we are preparing for teachers. So, I think we have to continue to recruit and motivate and say teaching is a wonderful profession. You may not get rich. Although, looking at Toni and myself, I don't think we've gone hungry or been poor since we both started public school teaching and we do live very comfortable lifestyles. I was telling Toni earlier and here I go with another personal story but just Saturday we had a Founder's Day celebration at Bennett and a young lady came through the receiving line and I said to her, "What is your major?" and she said, "Biology. I want to go to medical school and be a doctor." And that's wonderful and great-we need black doctors. And I said, "Oh, well, I was a Biology undergraduate major but I became a teacher. Have you thought about teaching?" and this young lady said, "Yes, that's really what I wanted to do, but my mom's a teacher and she told me no." Now, in my opinion, we have to stop doing that or we're going to have more of our young children labeled 'at risk' and we're going to have fewer teachers in the public school classroom and God forbid even fewer at colleges or institutions of higher education with a Ph.D.

Holloway:
Toni, what would you say to those motives?

Parker:
I totally agree because my friends who are teachers will not recommend to their children that they teach, and I understand that the opportunities are so great in other areas but our children need to see our people in the classroom teaching. That is very important. Now, I do know that some of our graduates get out there, they start working in other professions, and they look up and they're not happy.

Holloway:
Well, in North Carolina, I know just from looking in the university setting and the studies in the public schools that there are two major problems. One, that we're talking about now, just attracting teachers to the profession, but then the retention of the teachers-that these first year and early teachers get in and then they're not supported and are amongst a lot of other problems and then come out. You all deal with them as your profession. Have you found that to be true as well?

Parker:
Oh, definitely. There are other opportunities and they look after they go into teaching, especially, if they don't have the support. The other piece about teaching that I find is interesting about the profession is that there is nowhere for you to go in the teaching profession other than becoming an administrator.

Oliver:
You can't move up without moving out of the classroom.

Parker:
Right and for a lot of our teachers that is not what they want to do.

Holloway:
They came to teach.

Parker:
They came to teach but we don't seem to have a level system that would say, "Well, you are doing such a wonderful job here in the classroom. What we would like to do is leave you in your school but give you other responsibilities that say to you that you know some things that others need to know and why don't we do this for you and make you a mentor but lessen your load in terms of teaching responsibilities, where you would teach and mentor a young teacher and spend maybe half of your day doing that,." which would validate this person in terms of, "You know, I've been here for five or six years. I know some things I would like to share but I don't want to leave the classroom, I don't want to run a school. I would like to share that with some of my colleagues."

Holloway:
Let me say this-we only have a couple of minutes but another initiative of going outside of the classroom is other than a program like this. I don't know how often people across North Carolina or any other communities get a chance to hear from teachers or college professors talking about these issues. So, many you need to get out and talk with other people in the community about these issues and maybe that can help the profession.

Oliver:
Oh, I think you're absolutely right, yes, and I think the dialogue has begun. We are talking about these issues in education. I have to commend the State of North Carolina with the public school, K-12 system, in that they have, since 1980, been trying to work this double thing out so that you can stay in the classroom but do other things in addition to that and in higher education I think we're doing the same thing and that's why you find more of our students from the black institutions going on to get the Ph.D., etc., etc., because we're pushing them in that direction. The dialogue has, indeed, begun.

Parker:
It has. What happens in this state, however, is that we're growing so fast that any of those initiatives that are out there, such as a leveling system, are cut-back because they need those teachers in the classroom more and, so, we'll start something-our numbers get so high and we can't find enough teachers for our classrooms that we have to cut the program and it just never seems to come back.

Holloway:
Well, you took the words out of my mouth. We have to cut this program, too. (Laughter) I really enjoyed talking with you all. Thank you for sharing these wonderful issues and your opinions with North Carolinians.

Oliver:
Thank you.

Parker:
Thank you.

Holloway:
Well, certainly, everybody may not go to college but in North Carolina you do have the opportunity to make many affordable choices. Regardless of the level of education or the school of choice, one thing was, is, and shall continue to be common across all levels-what matters most is teaching excellence. So, if you have any comments or questions about tonight's topic, please call us or fax us or write us at the number and address on your screen or send us e-mail at bif@unctv.org or visit us on the World Wide Web-the address is there on your screen-at www.unctv.org/bif. Thanks, again, for watching Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host. Please join us again next Friday night at eleven o'clock. You have a blessed evening and a good night. [MUSIC]