Holloway:
...and how they maybe often cloud or continue to work with issues of race, as we discuss Civil Rights, economics, education or really identity issues. On our program, we have with us two professors from North Carolina State, associate professors. First, Dr. Paul Bidding. He is Associate Professor in English and Psychology at NC State and also Dr. Elaine Orr. She is also Associate Professor of English and teaches Women's Studies. Both at NC State. Thank you both for joining us

Bidding:
One quick correction. That was Associate Professor in the College of Education and Psychology.

Holloway:
I messed it up, didn't I?

Bidding:
I needed to say that because my dean would...she'd have a fit.

Holloway:
Well, thank you. Thank you both for coming over here to talk about these issues of gender and race and maybe we could start right off from an identity point of view. Do we have a problem in North Carolina and in the country with real identify when it comes to race and gender? I mean, it seems like a real obvious kind of description but is it?

Bidding:
The problem of identify seems to be one that's a problem not simply here in North Carolina but in terms of our attempt at being clear as to who we are, what we are, and what ultimately is to be expected of us. At some point, as we begin to look very carefully at ourselves, we see it occurring with teenagers who are attempting to be clear as to what it means to be one, simply a person, what it means to be an adult person. So, the problem of identify seems to be one that's prevalent

Holloway:
Dr. Orr, what do you think about?there's a lot of racial and cultural there but gender has come in quite often and when people say minority in a lot of issues, gender or women issues come up. How has that affected or does it conflict or unite with issues of race?

Orr:
Well, let me respond a little bit to what Paul said and try to move on to what you're asking there. One of notions I'd like to clarify or at least explore in this course?we haven't mentioned the course but we will in a moment?a course that Paul and I are working on and teaching at NCSU around identity?is that identity is largely something that's given to us rather than something that we generate. You know, the moment you're born you become a girl or a boy. Well, actually, now, earlier

Holloway:
We, at UNC-TV, did a video on "To Be a North Carolinian" and we talked about culture, but you've got your North Carolina to be an American, a male, a female, black or white. What do you all find are the conflicts that people struggle with?all of these issues?what seems to really prevail and where do the conflicts come in with this?

Bidding:
Well, we generally questions of identify, as Elaine suggested, as if it's a given, as if it's something we're born into. Thus, we see it as something to be discovered. So, we just simply discover about ourselves. Now, there are some who would suggest that the conflict comes when we recognize that maybe we made a categorical mistake here. That maybe it's not a discovery at all but it's an invention. That it's something that we just made up.

Orr:
Our identities, for example, right?

Bidding:
And as an invention, now, understand that here we're going back to the particular category through which we might be able to discuss questions of identity. Discovery?water flows downhill?that's something to be discovered. We can't change that simply by changing the way we think about it. Inventions, however, are the kinds of things that we can just? since we created it, since we invented it, since we constructed it, it can be changed simply by changing the way we think about it.

Holloway:
Culture?

Orr:
Right.

Bidding:
And, then, if we want to take culture and place that within the category of things invented, as opposed to things discovered, then certainly now we change the way we think about culture, which means that cultures, being inventions, can be altered, can be changed, can be shifted. I can shift from one to the other as I can shift from one religion to the other.

Holloway:
But race and gender are inventions?

Orr:
Well, that's what Paul's suggesting and certainly most research would bolster that argument. You know, what is race ultimately? I mean, isn't it primarily language, religion, behaviors, cultural constructions and gender?interestingly, I think more people are open to the idea that gender is invented than they are that race is. I don't know if Paul experiences that but I think most people are willing to grant now that most feminine behaviors probably aren't born into women and that most

Holloway:
Some of these issues that we discussed, just touched on so far, have caused you all to get together at NC State University. Is that one of the reasons why you all are together here today? Tell us about that.

Orr:
Well, I mentioned it inadvertently already that we're working on a course together, "Introduction to Race and Gender" which will be an undergraduate course but for upper classmen, undergraduates, and we want to discuss these kinds of issues. We want to help students think critically about race and gender and the structures and the institutions of race and gender.

Bidding:
The idea being to bring students together on the basis of that which we all have in common. That is, on the basis of the fact that we're human beings who have the capacity to communicate. Thus, the focus of this experience will be around dialogue?a group of us around a table sharing certain experiences, sharing some readings, sharing our ideas, sharing our thoughts as it relates to issues of gender and race?to enable us to explore this invention, if you will, to explore our thought

Holloway:
Well, we know that President Clinton and, as well, Governor Hunt have both made these types of things?at least race?as a concern, as an initiative and with President Clinton's "One America" for the identity of creating one America and not talking, I guess, so much about the differences but get people to come together, to do exactly, I guess, what you're doing at NC State.

Orr:
Well, one commonality?to go back to where we began?is that we all need an identity. As human beings, we want an identity and it is part of our project as human beings to create one. I think you begin to create one by first learning what you've been given, what you've inherited, and our project isn't simply to sort of destroy identities or to de-construct race or gender and leave with nothing but rather to ask why it is that we need identity, how identities are structured, and what we w

Bidding:
A colleague of mine is fond of saying, "Never forget that I'm African-American and always forget that I'm African-American." His attempt is to say, in some strange way, both. That is to say that there are areas in which that's relevant and then there are areas in which it's not relevant at all. Now, if we are to relate, then part of the task in the relationship is to establish to what extent the fact that I'm African-American is relevant to whatever it is that we're attempting to do and to what extent isn't it relevant. So, it's something that I should always be reminded of and it is also something that I should forget at times. So, the task is trying to work that out and that seems to be true in terms of developing of a relationship with a significant other in whatever the situation or case might be.

Holloway:
And you can't always control that but then it comes back to your own view of your own self-identity, I would guess. Let's bring up two national events that affected the whole issue of gender and race. In 1995, there was the Million Man March, predominantly African-American males. In 1997, the Promise Keepers Rally, predominantly men of all races, but there were opposite factions on each of those issues there. Do what extent was race and gender important in both of those events?

Bidding:
I agree, there is a need at times for people to come together on the basis of that which they have in common, to address and deal with their issues. Immediately, as I say that?being one who is completely and totally committed to the whole idea of diversity, who is committed to the idea of multi-culturalism within an educational environment?I say that on the basis of what I think I know about the world and what I think I know about the best kind of environment conducive to growth and

Holloway:
Can I read between the lines and say that maybe the Million Man March could have been more effective if it was more diverse and likewise with the Promise Keepers Rally?

Bidding:
Well, I want to say ultimately. Now, you notice I began by saying that there is a time and a purpose and a value in people coming together, people of like mind or like experiences coming together at some point to address issues that are common to that group, but I say that advisedly. That is to say that once that time and that's been done, then it's time to move out and stretch and to expose those ideas to the critical scrutiny of others. There has to be a need, at some point, to

Holloway:
Let me ask Dr. Orr. These two events we talked about, the Million Man March and Promise Keepers Rally, had some obvious differences with gender issues, both being predominantly male events. What have been your views on that in reacting to what Dr. Bidding said?

Orr:
Well, I know exactly how I would want to address the question of whether women should have been more involved but to talk about it, in terms of gender issues and the gender issues that it raises, I think both events demonstrate what I spoke with Paul about earlier today?a kind of crisis of masculinity in our culture that's been largely constructed or, at least, influenced by the rise of the Women's Movement and of feminism in America. I think...as a feminist, I have sympathy actually.

Holloway:
What would be a solution?

Orr:
Well, you might have co-leadership. You might try to find a way to define gender that doesn't demand that it be founded on power politics. Must someone be in charge? Can you have gender without an imbalance of power? If you can't, maybe we don't want it. If gender demands an imbalance of power, then it's ultimately flawed in ways that suggest it can't be retrieved in any way. Just as if race only has meaning if there's an imbalance of power, then, ultimately, we don't want race.

Holloway:
Let's bring up the whole issue of Affirmative Action then and it was brought about because of certain historical facts based on either discrimination or under-representative. How does that affect the whole gender and race initiative now in terms of your views, Dr. Bidding?

Bidding:
Well, the approach that I have taken on it and the best argument that I've seen has been one that's been developed...that I gathered from William Raspberry in one of his columns. Raspberry asks us to imagine that we're engaged in a basketball game and that in this game it's pretty clear to everyone involved that the referees cheated in the first half.

Orr:
Now, this is interesting. (Laughter)

Bidding:
Now, we're at half-time and all the key figures, all the players and the coaches and the administrators get together and they've all acknowledged and agreed that the game was...

Orr:
Fixed. (Laughter)

Bidding:
...was fixed. The question now is "How do we play the second half?" That seems to be the question. Now, the response has been, "Well, let's just now play fair."

Orr:
Right. Pretend like the first half didn't happen.

Bidding:
And without understanding now that the team with the privilege is now 50 points ahead.

Orr:
I was going to say there's a point difference.

Bidding:
So, is it simply a matter of just playing fair now or do we shift? Now, we say, "Okay, now we'll cheat for the other side for a half just to balance things out." There are some who would say, "Well, of course, that's not fair." But the issue is that we recognize and those of who come together at half time recognize that we must do something.

Orr:
Well, basically, what you're talking about is having a sense of history. If you come into the second half and you weren't there for the first half, then you don't have a sense of history and that's where a lot of our students are now. They think their post-Civil Rights?I should say this is where most of my white students are now?they don't think anything's wrong, you know. They didn't ever see things differently. They think we're on an even field or they think black students might ha

Holloway:
Isn't it more complicated when you say we've got a disadvantage but you say it's racial and it's gender? And then you've got the white male that's had the privilege for so long who may fill left out. You've got the black female that can lead double.

Orr:
Right.

Holloway:
It's complicated, isn't it?

Bidding:
And one of the things that we're hoping to do with this course is to enable students to see those various perspectives and understand the complexity of it all. It's not simply a matter of accusing someone of being racist or sexist. It certainly is much more complex than that. That certainly there are powerful arguments against Affirmative Action as it's presently designed and organized, and those arguments should be taken seriously and certainly addressed, but the question remains

Holloway:
Well, that's what we try to do on this program. We notice the title Black Issues Forum but we wanted to have black and white to come on, male or female, and discuss these issues and not just have an internal discussion. And last?we have just under five minutes now?many would say that the bottom line in a lot of things in America, because we're in a capitalistic society, is economics, is money. Can that even the playing field in gender and race?

Orr:
Well, actually, just a moment ago you said we have these various positions in regard to the question of Affirmative Action but certainly there's the issue of class which cuts across color and gender. The opportunities the poor white woman might have might not be as good or as encouraging as the opportunities the middle-class black woman might have in America today, depending on her neighborhood, her school, etc. So, in a way, class might be a really interesting dimension to add to add

Holloway:
Just under a minute. You want to...

Bidding:
I was just going to add...this issue of common ground is one that Elaine and I have spent a lot of time talking about. One of the things that people find interesting in courses like this one is that it's controversial. One of the reasons we're here, of course, is that these are controversial issues and, as controversial topics, they are often seen as interesting.

Orr:
And also divisive, unfortunately, and that's not how we see it.

Bidding:
Our approach?and I think we're in agreement on this one?is to begin not on the basis of the ways in which we're different. That is, on the ways in which we see the world differently but on the ways in which we are the same, which is a different little twist on it. That is, starting with common beliefs. Maybe so general, so broad, so common that maybe the most you can say about is, "Well, everyone knows that." And, so, if we can find some areas, some general beliefs or ideas from

Holloway:
Well, best wishes to you on your course and in resolving these common issues and moving towards them. We're run completely out of time.

Orr:
Okay.

Holloway:
Thank you so very much.

Orr:
Thank you.

Holloway:
You know, throughout history, we've often seen that government and society have tended to make special considerations regarding race and gender to receive certain benefits, usually based on some previous discrimination or under-representation?college admission, the right to vote, employment and so on?but after tonight's discussion maybe you've gained some new insight on how race and gender will impact our future. If you have more questions or comments or information you'd like to h