Holloway:
...other races. We'll discuss that next on Black Issues Forum

[MUSIC]

Holloway:
Welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm your host, Jay Holloway. Tonight we're evaluating North Carolina's criminal justice system and why black offenders always outnumber that of whites. There is a lot of talk about the corrections system, the courts, law enforcement, legislation and personal accountability. In many cases, the trial lawyers have the best perspective on this issue. Well, tonight we have two of North Carolina's best, Attorney Kevin Byrd of Raleigh--welcome, Kevin.

Byrd:
Hi.

Holloway:
All-right. And also Attorney Ernest Connor, Jr. of Greenville. Thank you both for being with us today. Assuming what I said in the opening, that blacks almost always outnumber that of whites in our legal system -- and I'm going to give some statistics to report that--what can we as citizens do about that? Connor, let me ask you first.

Connor:
Well the first thing I think we can do is start talking about it with each other and try to understand where each other come from. I think you have to deal with this at the family level and deal with it at the home and then deal with it with your neighbors and then beyond there. But I think you have to start talking about it and realize there is a difference, as far as your perceptions as how the world revolves. And then from there start taking action and try to educate everybody a s to where you come from on a particular issue.

Holloway:
What about you, Attorney Byrd?

Byrd:
I think you have to take and get into the community and let the children know what's going on and let them know the important issues that are facing the courts, the legislature and the judges. And I think if we can take and educate the children at an early age, I think we're going to take and eliminate a lot of their problems down the road. It's just really educating them.

Holloway:
So, on differences, both President Clinton and Governor Hunt have launched race initiatives to talk about this and I thank you all for coming in to talk about what is probably not a difficult subject for you guys but for our society in general, but a large criticism of these types of discussions or these initiatives is that, "it's just a discussion but nothing can be done about it." Now you say, go into the community and start discussing it but what can citizens specifically do. Y ou say, we can educate the students or we can discuss these issues but what is really going to make a difference?

Byrd:
I think going into the schools. And a lot of times schools want to take and have speakers come in and the let them know about different issues that are taking place. I think volunteering your time, going into the schools, talking to the teachers, talking to the students, having career days, inviting the kids over to the Wake County Court House. I see that a lot of times and I spoke to some of the kids that have gone over there and they're very excited when they finish and they get out of the court room and they see exactly what's going on. So I just think it's a matter of educating everybody.

Connor:
I think Kevin's right with that. I think you have to do that. But I take it one step further. I think you have to do it from your family also. You have to start at that kitchen table and you have to start instilling these values in your own children and then encouraging them to look across the yard or the neighborhood, the school yard, and to see the other side there and to listen and then ultimately you identify the problems. If you talk about it and listen about it, and then you can take action on it.

Holloway:
Now, I said, I made a statement earlier that blacks outnumber whites in terms of these statistics. I want to take a look at these graphics here and if you all want to comment on that, please go right ahead. In North Carolina when we look at prison admissions, let's take a look at this graphic now and see where the disproportionate figures are. Generally speaking, citizens in North Carolina, blacks account for two thirds of the prison admissions -- here's the graphic here now. Prison admissions for the calendar year of '96. And this is from the North Carolina Department of Corrections. 63.3 percent are blacks being admitted versus 33 percent white. And 3 percent others. We move on to the prison population, the next graphic if we can take a look at that. And you see now on that, if we can roll that one up again. That next graphic shows 65 percent, 65.2 are black and 34 point white. And as we keep that one up, I just want to also, well Connor, you said earlier that these statistics are pretty similar nationwide as well as North Carolina.

Connor:
Right. In fact, they're probably even worse nationwide. Nationwide, I think that blacks make up about 12 to 15 % of our population and yet in prison, they make up anywhere from 65 to 70% of our prison population. So the trend is there nationwide also. We're right on line with what the nation is happening.

Holloway:
Kevin, do the students see these kind of things when they go in. Are they aware that blacks are two-thirds of...

Byrd:
I think so because it's so obvious when you go into the courtroom that you see most of the defendants are black. And I think that that's the best education, that they can take and get from just seeing it first-hand. I mean, it's pretty obvious when you go down to the courthouse, you can see who's getting charged with most of the crimes.

Holloway:
Now the only other two, I didn't put those on graphics but when you look at, then, probation, it's about even in North Carolina between blacks and whites in terms of number of persons who are entered into probation and those that are actually probation population. Both are about 48% or 47%. But still, as you mentioned Connor, because blacks account for about 24% of North Carolina's population, still 48% twice, the probation entries and the probation population.

Connor:
They're still being discriminated against, or the discrimination is still happening in the probation area, because they should be representative of their population and they're not. They're double their population. And so there's something that causes that, too.

Holloway:
And finally, in the parole situation, North Carolina Department of Correction tells us that 62.2% of the parole population are black, whereas 34.5% are white, and then the parole entries is about the same thing with 64% versus 32 % white. So we've got these disproportionate situations. Now, those are what the correction figures are. But what about in the courts? You said earlier that we see the disproportionate there. Why are we having that? Can the blacks, are they there beca use that we actually do more crimes or we can't afford the good attorneys? Or because the judges or the jury doesn't understand, or is it all those?

Byrd:
I think the main reason is that the black community gets targeted more. There's a big hunt right now to do a crackdown on drugs. And a lot of times the drugs are taking place in the black community. And it serves the police officers that they can go into the black community to try to take and stop that, because that's where most of the call are coming from. So, I think that's one of the reasons that there's more blacks in the criminal justice system, because I think the black community as a whole is getting targeted more than the white community.

Holloway:
You want to comment on that, Connor?

Connor:
Well, I think that's a part of it. I think there are a lot of factors there that cause it. But I think it's a lack of understanding between the races to a certain degree. If you see a black man in a white community, or in a Mercedes, your first thought as a law enforcement officer is going to be that "Why is he in that car?" Not that he's legitimately in there, but if you see a white man in a business suit in that car, you're going to have no concept about that. So you're going t o stop them more often, but it's not an intentional thing that I'm stopping him because he's black, I'm stopping him because he doesn't fit what I normally expect to see.

Holloway:
So it's education you say is needed.

Connor:
It's an educational process that needs to be done. But you're going to need to understand both sides of the card there, both sides of the aisle. Understand that there are some wealthy blacks out there that have cars, and they don't need to be stopped just for that reason. And I think it goes beyond that when they're in the court system. If you have a middle-class white person who has been stopped, he or she is going to have some family members there to support them. You get the p or black person who's a young 15-year-old male, who has a dysfunctional family, and his family may not be able to take off work to come there and support him. They may not show up at all. He doesn't have the teachers that are going to come there and speak on his behalf, so you're going to see more of those young blacks put in to jail than the whites, because they're not going to have the same resources when they come in there. I think you're also going to see that they are not able to afford a private a torney. They're going to have to depend on a court-appointed attorney or a public defender. And they're going to be overworked by and large. So they're not going to have the resources for the attorney to work with to begin with, and the attorney is not going to have the time to go dig up the resource for the person, and the defendant himself is not going to know what he or she might need to do to bring resources to the attorney's attention. So I think there's a whole lot of things that cause these prob lems to happen, and it's not just any one single issue.

Holloway:
You almost set up a clip that I want to show here. We talked with a gentleman named Maceo Sloan last year, who is by most terms speaking, a wealthy gentleman here in North Carolina. But he says almost pretty much to what you said, that no matter where you are economically, that sometimes you're still going to, and I guess he talked about this profile that you're talking about, but let's let him explain that in his own words. This is Maceo Sloan. Sloan: No matter how successful I am, no matter how big my companies get, no matter how rich I get, no matter how many civic works I do, or committees I sit on, if I'm driving around in a nice neighborhood in a nice car at night, and I see a policeman, their tendency is to want to, and I can't find somebody's house, their tendency is to want to go pull up beside the police car and ask for directions. My tendency is to turn around and go in the other direction.

Holloway:
Why is that? Sloan: Because in America, you don't want to be a lone black man in a nice car in a nice neighborhood caught by yourself by the police. I ask them how many times can you remember seeing on television that a white motorist has been stopped in a routine traffic stop, has ended up dead? And how many times when you think of a black motorist being stopped on a routine traffic stop, and ending up dead? And they all say well, I can't think of a white motorist that ended up dead on a traffic stop, let me go res earch it. But they can all remember two or three instances every year, where a black motorist was stopped and ended up dead. So you really have to fear for your life to a certain extent, and you have to be very careful where you go, and what you do. And that doesn't make any difference how successful you are, you always have to do that.

Holloway:
So, here we are, five years later from the L.A. riots, the result of Rodney King being beat by a stop by police officers. Now he, nowhere the kind of success that you have, but if you're driving a nice car here in North Carolina, and you're saying you fear in a situation like that, for being stopped. Have you had instances where you've been stopped before and then you felt discriminated against? Sloan: Well, there have been some times. Let me give you an example. When President Clinton had his reception down in South Carolina, just over the North Carolina border, when he came to the Final Four that was in Charlotte, they invited the big contributors. They invited us down, and a group of us from Durham went down to the reception. And we were coming back from that, coming up I-85, and there were fifteen of us, fifteen cars. And we set our cruise controls on 75, and we knew that the speed limit as 65, so we set our cruise controls on 75, and we were cruising toward Durham. And a highway patrolman came up behind us and followed us for 4 or 5 miles, and then he waved the 7 cars that were behind me to the side, to get them out of his way, pulled up behind me, turned on his lights, pulled me over and gave me ticket. Now I had 7 cars in front of me, 7 cars behind me, but they were all white. And I asked him, I said "Now, why did you pull me over?" And he said "Well, I pulled you over because you w ere speeding. I said that's true. But I know that the 7 cars behind me were speeding, and I know the cars in front of me were speeding because we were all on cruise control, and we've been driving together since we came across the border. Why did you pick me? Could it be because I was a black man driving a convertible Mercedes?" And he said "That could be, but it doesn't make any difference. You were speeding."

Holloway:
Well, now that's Maceo Sloan. Now that kind of thing happens to someone who's wealthy, who can afford to get to this, but we're still talking about educating. This kind of thing happens, it can happen to me, it probably can happen to Ernest, it may not happen to you as often , but these kind of things are going on in North Carolina and across the country. What do you say to those persons that may fit that profile, or would you say to whites you just don't understand that blacks have to go through this each day? Which one of you want to tackle that question?

Byrd:
Well one thing I've found very interesting. listening to Mr. Sloan, I think it goes back to personal accountability. He was speeding, and he admitted that he was speeding. I think once you're wrong, sometimes you have to think and say that you're wrong, and that it doesn't necessarily go back to a black or a white issue. The police officer had the right to pull him over. A lot of times what they'll do is they'll take certain numbers, and they'll say like the 7th car. They're going to take him and pull him over. So, I think a lot of times we have to take a look at race, but sometimes we also have to take and say: What can we do to do the best job that we can, and hold ourselves personally accountable.

Holloway:
Now, Ernest, you made the analogy earlier that maybe he just didn't fit the profile that an officer may feel that blacks would fit. So, could it be that still he was singled out?

Connor:
I think he was singled out personally. I believe he was singled out because he was a black in a convertible Mercedes. The first thought to me as a criminal defense lawyer is that the officer is going to think that there were drugs involved there. That certainly is no defense for Mr. Sloan, that other people were guilty of the same offense, he's still guilty of speeding. But he was stopped, I believe, entirely because he was black. I think the only way you can stop that issue is t educate whites that racism is happening out there. Being a white person, I do not feel that most whites tend to believe that there is a lot of racism. They think it does not happen on a large scale. When I talk to some of my black friends, they tend to say it is happening, and I have seen times when it's happened in North Carolina. So it think it happens every day out there, but I don't get to experience it because I'm white. So, you have to educate the whites that it is happening, and you have to ed cate the officers that look, you need to go beyond just is this a black man in a Mercedes when you are doing your profiling. You have to look beyond, does he look out of place in that Mercedes? Because obviously, Mr. Sloan did not look out of place in that Mercedes. But you have to educate the people about the various issues. And I think that was the heart of why he was stopped. He was stopped because of a lack of education on the part of the officer. And a part of the fact that whites just tend to b elieve that there is not a lot of racism happening out there.

Holloway:
Now, this program is actually airing in February, but back in November, the Supreme Court has overturned another appeal for Affirmative Action, the California case. And I had a guest on here also last year that gave the analogy about Affirmative Action is like a basketball game: that if you're behind, and you found that the referees have been cheating in the first half, that the analogy would be well, what do you do to correct the second half? This is another way of explaining that. So, you've got Affirmative Action being threatened, you've got what many could say is blatant discrimination. But whites may not necessarily understand that. How do you deal with this issue with black lawyers? Do black lawyers have an additional obligation do you think to tackle these issues?

Byrd:
I think we do. And I think what we have to do is know that there's a certain system out there, and we just have to take and be prepared to deal with the system. A lot of times there are going to be double standards, and that's just the way society is. So, sometimes what we have to take and do is know this is the way the game is played, and start playing. Just like Willie Mays said a long time ago, that he has to be twice as good to compete in baseball. And I think that sometimes we have to just realize that the playing field isn't level, so we have to take and rise above, and just do a little bit more. And I think it goes back to being personally accountable, and knowing that you have a system that's not 100% fair, but that's life. And you have to take it and deal with it.

Holloway:
There's one name that rings a lot of emotion and causes a lot of people to question the legal system, and it goes back to what you alluded to, Attorney Connor, about whites viewing the legal system ultimately as fair, and in general, and I want to ask you about this Kevin, and blacks in general saying that the odds are stacked against us maybe. But when you say O.J. Simpson, that trial brought out a lot, and it probably brought those issues head on. How have you all had to deal with those issues that that brought out in terms of the legal system being generally fair, from whites' point of view, and generally stacked against you from blacks'?. Can you address that first?

Connor:
Well, it fed into everything that whites feel. They feel that the criminal defense system is fairly fair, but if it's stacked in favor of anybody, it's in fact stacked in favor of the defendant. And therefore O.J. Simpson, because of technicalities that Judge Ito ruled and how he did, that he walked, and that a guilty man went free. Where blacks tend to believe that it's stacked against them, and that they go in there with an uphill battle. So I saw from O.J. Simpson a real diversity in the way the blacks see the criminal justice system, and the whites. It fed into everything the whites see, and the blacks said well, he would have been convicted if he didn't have the money to hire all those great lawyers and get off. And that's why it was stacked against him, but he had all the resources, he could pick it up and keep it from falling on to him. And it fed into both people's perception of the criminal justice system.

Holloway:
Comments?

Byrd:
Well, I find it interesting that after the trial was over, that's when all the talk came about reform, reforming the criminal justice system. And it seems like it came about because all of a sudden, a famous black man has been acquitted. Lee Council, then Johnny Cochran, did a wonderful job and helped him get acquitted. Then everyone was saying, something's wrong with this system. Let's overhaul it. And then when Rodney King's accusers were innocent, there was nothing wrong with th e system. So I think it goes back to the double standard, when it takes and helps the black community, something must be wrong. Let's take and change it.

Holloway:
Now, we don't see those kind of high profile cases that much in North Carolina. You have a few. But how often in your collective cases have you all seen race coming in to play? Maybe not as big as that, but is that prevalent in North Carolina?

Connor:
Well race, in my opinion, plays into every case that you have in North Carolina to some degree. If you have a black defendant who has not finished school, and who doesn't have the resources out there, or his family cannot take off work, and he's not something that the jury can relate to, he's not a person that the jury can relate to, then it's a race issue somewhat. It's not strictly race, it's an economic issue by and large part, but race is a factor there. That if I had a poor wh te person, it would be a little bit easier, because I know the majority of the people on that jury are going to be white. And that they're going to by and large understand him a little bit better than they are that poor black person who may have dreadlocks. So, I think it plays a part to some degree in every case in North Carolina. It does not get played as a race card like they say it was played in the O.J. Simpson trial, and it may not come to the forefront like that. But it's there under the surface , in my opinion in just about every case.

Holloway:
Do you agree?

Byrd:
Well, what most trial lawyers are going to do is, they're going to spend a lot of time before the trial starts in educating their witness in how to testify. And Earnest's point is well taken. A lot of times you might have someone with dreadlocks and you're going to say, cut your hair. That's not going to come across well before a jury. Especially in Wake County, if you look at the type of jurors that we have, they're normally dominated by most of the people in the Triangle. They w ork in the Research Triangle Park, you have some housewives, you have some students, but it's a very conservative jury. So you have to make your defendant or the person that you're representing come across as a good person so to speak. So we spend a lot of time getting that particular witness ready for the jury. And that audience is predominantly a white male audience.

Connor:
Can you educate that defendant or the client there in how to relate to that white jury?

Byrd:
It's a two-way street.

Connor:
Because oftentimes he may not know how to relate to them, and he may not know how to talk in a language that they can understand because he has his own slang that he may use, and they're not going to understand that. And he's got to be able to tell them what he did during the day and how that relates to what they do during the day. So it's a two-way street in that regard, and that is something you deal with in every case to some degree.

Holloway:
So, in North Carolina, you're suggesting on both sides...the personal accountability side, I guess those that are disproportionately represented in the legal system, which largely fits my profile, black male, have to be educated more on how to relate to the largest system, the legal system, the jury, as well as the largest society understanding other cultures and different cultures?

Connor:
That's right.

Holloway:
Let's talk a little about that personal accountability in the last few minutes of the show. What can persons, individually, do to turn these statistics around and have more balance and representatives in society?

Connor:
Get involved in their community. Start getting some things that you can come into court if you ever get into trouble and say, "This is what I did. It shows that I'm a good and decent person." But get involved in your community. It helps you also learn what the other side is doing. When you're involved in the Kiwanis...

Holloway:
So, you say "your community." You mean the larger community?

Connor:
The larger community...not just within your small neighborhood but go outside of that...make an effort to get to know the people in your city by getting involved in doing things. Do volunteer projects, work with your church, work with your civic groups but get involved and then these people will help you or help the people who can come in behind you and support you if you do get into trouble but it helps you learn the system a little better.

Holloway:
Kevin, less than 30 seconds, what would you say?

Byrd:
I say listen to your parents, listen to your parents. If you listen to your parents, half the time you're not going to get into trouble. The kids that go in juvenile court with their parents there, most of the time they don't return. The people who come in there without their parents, they end up graduating to felonies.

Holloway:
Good point. We tried to cover so much and it was a lot to cover. I think you, guys, for taking the time.

Byrd:
Thank you.

Connor:
Thank you.

Holloway:
And certainly we hope that after watching tonight's program you will more closely examine your views of North Carolina's criminal system and if you believe you've been treated unfairly, then hopefully you understand that you have the power to affect the process or even change the system and one important way is by exercising your right to vote , especially for legislators, judges, and district attorneys. Registered voters can also become jurors. You should know that. If you have comments or questions about tonight's topic, please call us or you can fax us at the numbers on your screen that are coming up in just a second or write to us at bif@unctv.org or please visit us on the World Wide Web at www.unctv.org/bif. Thank you for watching Black Issues Forum. I'm your host, Jay Holloway. Join us next Friday night at 11:00 o'clock when we discuss choosing the right pre-school for your child. You have a blessed evening and good night.