Holloway:
Which environment is best for your child, one that is predominantly one race or one that is racially balanced? We'll talk about that and some other issues, next on Black Issues Forum.

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Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm your host Jay Holloway. Tonight with us we have two preschool directors who will assist us in determining what kind of preschool environments are really best for your children. On our show tonight we welcome Ms. Jorean Debnam, she's director of the New Bern Avenue Day Care Center in Raleigh, North Carolina. And also we welcome Rosa Vallez, she's director of Method Day Care, also in Raleigh. Welcome both of you to the program. Both Guests: Thank you.

Holloway:
We're really talking about a subject now that is probably one of the most important subjects because we're talking about preparing our young kids to be ready for school, ready for life. One of the things we talked about in the opening of the show is from a racial point of view, which one is better? I would imagine that a lot of black parents, and maybe white parents, struggle when we're talking about race relations issues, which is better? What type of environment might be better for them to send their kid to one where they can really learn their identity, specifically in the black community, which is predominantly black? Or early on, learning to appreciate some of the other racial differences? Rosa, you're with a day care in Raleigh that grew out of a predominantly black community that now is predominantly white, but it still came out of that initial community. Tell us about your situation, but how you view that question of which one might be better for a black kid, maybe.

Vallez:
Yes, we did come out of a black community, and now we're in an environment that is predominantly white. But I think the issue of which one is better has a lot of variables to it. I think that children need to be well-rounded. I think they need to have the experience of having all possibilities of mixing with all different cultures and all different economic backgrounds. I have heard a lot of parents say that they want their children in a predominantly black setting, but I also know that I hear parents say that they want their children, because the world has so many cultures in it, that they need to be prepared to deal with all types of situations and all different types of races and cultural backgrounds.

Holloway:
Ms. Debnam, I would imagine, you've been operating a day care for quite a long time. How long?

Debnam:
Twenty-nine years.

Holloway:
So you're had an opportunity to see, I would imagine, kids come back that are doing well, that have come from the predominantly black daycare environment. How would you comment on that?

Debnam:
I really feel that if we divert back to completely segregated-type day care centers, all black and all white, that we would really defeat the purpose that we really fought for. Racial diversity is more or less sort of a silent type thing at my day care center. Even though kids are exposed, we have to be through literature, books, field trips and discussions. A lot of times it is discussed because we are predominantly black. I feel that if-it really goes back to the teachers themse lves. There has to be a teacher who really loves doing what she does in order to help the children to understand the world in which they live. I think that we would totally defeat our purpose of fighting for what we really want if we were totally black and white all over again.

Holloway:
I would imagine that most child care providers or teachers there really love what they do because I know that this is not the best paid profession for the teachers that are doing that, so I would imagine they really love what they do. What should parents look for then, aside from the racial make-up? What should they look for in a quality day care? Let's go back and start with you, Rose.

Vallez:
I think they need to look for the interaction with the teacher and the child, or the teacher and the children in the day care. They need to look for a day care that has well-rounded programs for all children. I always encourage my parents that I talk to, to make sure that you find out a little bit of background about the day care that you're looking at. Go to the division and look at the records. Talk with other parents who have children. And a lot of parents come to me and say, well, can I call a couple of parents just to see how satisfied they are?" And I say, sure that's no problem. They need to talk with the teachers. When I take parents around the center, they need to ask the teacher questions about their program, about their classroom activities. Ask about the educational background of the teachers in that center. Then they can go a little bit further and ask other questions, but generally, you can look at some of the facilities, the surroundings, the classroom to see i f it's a happy classroom or see if it's well-equipped. Not every day care center needs all of the little cute things that we find, but if they have the basics and children are happy, then that says that they are being well cared for.

Holloway:
Ms. Debnam, you've been doing this for quite some time, so obviously you're doing some of the right things. Would you agree, or what would you add to what she said?

Debnam:
I agree 100%. Normally when a parent comes to New Bern Avenue Day Care to enroll their child or to ask questions, the first thing I do is say, "would you like to view the facility?" And we take them around and look for the very same things that Ms. Vallez said, to see if there is a real nurturing type of relationship between the teacher and the children there. To me that's most important. To look at the equipment that's in the center and see if the important things are there. It does not have to be a brand-new, beautiful this and that and all of the other things, but just those things that you feel like are important for a child's daily . . .

Holloway:
What would you say are the important things?

Debnam:
Some of the important things are: be sure that there's a sand and a water table there so the children can do creative type activities, that there are art supplies, things like yarn, paper, thread, buttons, little popsicle sticks--very simple type things. When you see those kind of things there, then you know that those children are free to explore.

Holloway:
What about affordability? Now, sometimes race can come into play. Let's say certain parents want to send their kid to a certain place, but they can't afford it. Then do you consequently have these segregated facilities because of that affordability? Would you all comment on that?

Debnam:
I think affordability is very important. You might find that New Bern Avenue Day Care Center might be the least expensive day care center in Raleigh. And therefore, I'm going to always have a huge waiting list because there are parents waiting to get in, but also, the program is a very good program. There are activities, there are things that you need to do in order to subsidize what the cost of care is. But affordability is very expensive, and you want to keep your program so tha t children whose parents cannot afford full cost of care, and that's one of the main purposes of the low cost at New Bern Avenue, to be sure that those parents who cannot afford the full cost of day care will be able to attend.

Holloway:
Ms. Vallez, is the situation you've moved out of, that predominantly black community you once said, can parents of children still in that community afford to come to your day care now?

Vallez:
. . .

Holloway:
I didn't mean to put you on the spot.

Vallez:
Um, to be honest, probably no. We aren't the highest day care in Raleigh. We're probably middle-of-the-road, so to speak. But we do try to offer programs where parents who cannot afford to pay the full tuition can take advantage of these programs and use part-we have a scholarship program. We have a person who is in the church who has a foundation that gives to help parents with tuition. So we try to make it affordable, too, because we know that everybody wants to have their chil d in a good quality program. And we try to make it a little bit easier so that they can take advantage of that.

Holloway:
Let me share with you, we're done some other program talking about black schools at the K-12 level, at the college level, and now at the preschool level. And there is a perception, and I would say both in the black community and probably the larger community, that if the school is a black school or predominantly black, that it may not provide the kind of quality in comparison to those other schools in K-12 or in college, certainly in preschool. What would you say in general speaking, Ms. Debnam, to the parent that may feel that way about preschool as well, and they probably carry that thought right through K-12 and college, too.

Debnam:
I would say that the parent needed to become more involved, to be sure that they're on target with what is to be going on in that situation, that school situation. I certainly do not think that a child in a black learning atmosphere gets any less training than a child in a white learning atmosphere. There could be more funds available, but if that teacher is on target and kept up to date with things that ought to be taught in those situations, and I certainly do not see that that child would be any less culturally inclined than in a white neighborhood.

Holloway:
How do you feel, Ms. Vallez?

Vallez:
I really think it goes back to the teacher and the director of the center, what that center is going to provide. Because if you have a teacher that's really motivated and is going to make sure that that child gets all the opportunities to explore, then they're going to do well, wherever.

Holloway:
One of the issues in America and in North Carolina, and regardless of our rural communities in North Carolina and our metropolitan areas, like Raleigh, Durham and others, you have a disproportionate number-when I say disproportionate, I guess between black and white. But certainly, in a lot of public schools, two-thirds of the kids in schools come from single, female-headed households where the father is absent. And we did a previous show talking about how many of these black male s are in the legal system in some kind of way. Does that bear out to what you all see in terms of parental involvement at the preschool level?

Debnam:
Not necessarily. I think it depends really on that parent, that single parent. I've seen lots of single-parent children go through New Bern Avenue Day Care. In fact, just for an example, I have one young man that was titled "hyper" when he was at New Bern Avenue Day Care, he was Ritalin. And that young man graduated from Ligon High School, graduated from UNC in Chapel Hill, and now he holds a very high position in High Point, North Carolina. And that was a single parent. And there are so many other cases that I could really cite, so I don't think that that is necessarily true. It could be a high percentage, but it does not have to be, and I think it depends on the parent. It really depends on that parent.

Holloway:
So you're also saying that even if that's the case, that does not a determining factor of your success.

Debnam:
Exactly.

Vallez:
Right.

Holloway:
But do the statistics bear out that way, maybe in your day care, the percentages ...?

Vallez:
In my day care, the single parent is not as high as the two parent family. I do have some single parents in there, and I also agree that it's the parent that makes that child, the involvement. We have single parents, the mother, the female in the home, and the children have turned out to be absolutely wonderful. They go on to make good grades in school, and it's always rewarding to us to hear of these good things from the public schools back to the day care. We hear a lot of that . And we also sometimes consider ourselves as a family-type day care, that we really care about what families are going through, and we try to make sure that we provide, if necessary, any outside enrichment or resources to make sure that that child gets all that it needs to be successful, especially going into the public schools.

Debnam:
Can I say . . .

Holloway:
Yes, please.

Debnam:
The fraternities and sororities are making a great impact in situations like that, too. And I know at our day care center, we have the fraternities from St. Augustine's college working with us a great much this year, and we're placing some of the good male role models with the students where there is a parent absent in the home, especially the father. And it's working out very well. Our percentage this year is not very high either; we are finding that we're having less one-parent c hildren in the center now.

Vallez:
I think you have other resources like, we have the Foster Grandparent program in our center, and even though we have mostly Foster Grandmothers, but there have been times when we've had the Grandfathers to come in, too. And they have been really wonderful in helping be a role model to the young folks in our center.

Debnam:
And the role model parent is very important.

Holloway:
Would you say, though, nationally speaking, that even in two-parent families, that the father is less active with the school than the mother?

Debnam:
Most of the time. Most of the time. They are usually working and don't have the time the mothers have to spend in the center.

Holloway:
What would you say to fathers like me and others that are watching that use that as an excuse?

Debnam:
Find some time, fathers!

Vallez:
Right. I always encourage, especially in my infant room, the mother usually brings the infant and picks the infant up, but I say, "find some time to come in a play with that infant child, feed if not your own child, help feed some of the other infants in that center." But I do find that no matter what I ask of my parents, especially the fathers in my center, they usually respond, and they're usually there to help.

Debnam:
We're using our parents, especially fathers, during our community services activities. And we asked them to come in, instead of inviting other people, we asked them to come in and talk to them about the type jobs that they do. And of course you get a wide variety, and it's a very interesting reaction you get from a child when his dad comes into the center. Most of the time the mothers bring them, and most of the time the mothers pick them up. But once that father comes in, those k ids, it's just a different reflection on their faces when their dad comes in.

Holloway:
Well, I normally don't get personal on this show, but I can identify with that. I have a four-year old, so. Recently in North Carolina, and this show's airing in February now, so already in effect is this new state law that is regulating child care and preschools more specifically. And there is some undertone that some of these laws may be discriminatory to some day cares in black neighborhoods or in black facilities where in many black neighborhoods you have crime that is higher, that is targeted for the law enforcement, so there may be a perception . . . We may find in North Carolina that some of the enforcement people from the child care division in the North Carolina Department of Health and Human Services are having to struggle with the crime in the neighborhood that may impact on the safety of the child. Do you all want to comment on-and I know this is something brand new-on how you think this may effect child care facilities in black neighborhoods across our state?

Debnam:
Right now it'd be very, very hard for me to answer that, I guess appropriately I would say, because I don't know exactly what they're going to be looking for when they say "unsafe environment." In Southeast Raleigh, pretty much, I guess, right in the heart of it, right near the Motor Vehicle Department and all. But I have not seen the particular area to be so unsafe, and I've been there for 29 years, and I have yet the first time to see something tragic happen right where I am. So I don't know right now exactly what they're going to be looking for when they say that. If they're talking about the facility, then for 29 years I've gone through the process of sanitation inspection, building code, and all of the fire inspections, and everything has been passed, so if that'd be the case, then I'll be fine. I don't know right now exactly what specifics they're going to be looking for when they say "a safe environment."

Holloway:
You want to comment on that?

Vallez:
No, I agree with Mrs. Debnam. I'm not sure what they're going to be looking for either. Even though I'm not in a predominantly black area, we have met all of the requirements to keep the standard of license that we have, but we're right on Hillsborough Street, I mean, we have people traveling our way every day, all times of night. But if it's the environment or the safety of the building, we're not sure exactly where they're going to be coming from.

Holloway:
Well, yes, Ms. Debnam . . .

Debnam:
I think it's going to be very, very hard for them to come to some real fine-point things because if you look at exactly where Rosa is located right now, the crime area there could be just as great: you're right there with college students, you're right there with that-not Ashe Avenue, but . . . you know, homes where there are a lot of students living . . .

Holloway:
Right near N.C. State University.

Debnam:
Right. So there are a lot of things that could go on there that could be of criminal origin, and then we are sitting there with pretty much the same thing, near St. Augustine's College there with students. So it's a kind of hard thing to accept right now. I really don't know, like I said, I need to know exactly what type things they are talking about when they say "inappropriate."

Holloway:
Well, time is about to run out and there are a lot of issues we could talk about, but let me maybe end with the last thing, that the President of the United States and quite in North Carolina and even in public television, this whole Ready To Learn initiative of -probably what you are involved in is getting our children, young children to come to school, ready to learn. And we know that in these early years, the first three years and the first several years, a child's brain is very susceptible to learning quite a bit, I think 85% their first three years. So how important is it that the parent really take advantage and really understand how important these critical years are when our children are in your hands?

Debnam:
I think that they need to be sure that the child is being nurtured. Nurtured to me is the most important part of brain development in children. Be sure that they're being loved, that they're being talked to a lot, that they're being played with a lot, that they're being read to a lot, that they're being exposed to a lot of cultural type things. Because at an early age, the brain can certainly absorb these type things.

Holloway:
And you can do that even if you can't afford a day care.

Debnam:
If you cannot afford, day care, right.

Vallez:
The interaction between the child and the parent is going to be very important. And I know everybody's just pulling for time, but that time needs to be made between the parent and the child. Little things, it does not have to be costly things, but just little things, a walk through the park, conversation, exposure to sand and water and mud play, all of that plays a very important part in how a child develops.

Holloway:
What about, when we started, about the race relations issue. How do you deal with kids at that early age on making distinctions between races? I would imagine parents struggle with that. Do you all have any answers for parents on that?

Guest:
Well . . .

Holloway:
I know it's a tough issue, but . . . for example, we had, earlier in this series, some of our experts said that black and white is a social thing that man has made, and we're really all part of the human race and so the parents start teaching these differences, "he's black, and he's white." But really, I mean, you know, the person's not black, not really, not white, not really. But do you have any advice as to how parents should deal with that or how you deal with it in your child care facilities?

Debnam:
Well with the few white children I've had in my day care center, I found that it made no difference with the children, none whatsoever. Very seldom would a child ask the color of another child. I think that it does extend from adults. The way we differentiate with them is through storytelling, through books that we read, we try to keep a diversity of books in the day care center so that the children can see the interaction of black and white children through stories. And if a question arises, then we will have to answer it, but it's not anything that we make any issue out of. And of course, it's very visible, and through the books that we use, through activities that we do, whites are in and out of the center at all times because of cultural programs that we have. We have a cultural arts program, and a lot of the cultural artists are white. We have a pre-reading program, the pre-reading teacher is white. We have children who are involved with speech therapists, some of the speech therapists are white. And very seldom will children have anything to say. So I do think that it goes back to the parent.

Holloway:
Ms. Vallez, you see more of that in your day care, variety.

Vallez:
The children in my center, they don't really see differences right now. I even asked, my daughter's a product of child care, and I asked her one time about the difference, and she said, "Well, I'm different or I can see a difference between my friends and myself, but so what, Mommy. That's my friend." We deal with it when we have to, but we do not make an issue of it, and we make sure that when we have pictures and storybooks like Ms. Debnam said, that it shows everybody playing to gether and being one.

Holloway:
Well thank you both. We have run completely out of time, believe it or not, and we thank you for dealing with these important and somewhat tough issues.

And also, we thank you for watching. You know, research has shown that during the formative years, children really learn most. And thus it is very important that parents choose a preschool that's most conducive to their child's learning. Maybe now you have a little more information to assist you with your decision.

If you have comments or questions, please call us, or fax us, or write us, or e-mail us at the addresses or you see on your screen. Or visit us on the World Wide Web at www.unctv.org/bif. Thank you for watching Black Issues Forum, I'm Jay Holloway, your host. Join us again next Friday night at 11:00, and you have a blessed evening and a good night.

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