Holloway:
Despite the obstacles of racism and the struggle for civil rights in the sixties, one determined female beat the odds to become UNC-Chapel Hill's first black female undergraduate. She'll tell her story next on Black Issues Forum. [MUSIC] Good evening, I'm Jay Holloway and welcome to Black Issues Forum. Tonight, in a profile of achievement, we're talking to Karen L. Parker. She's the first black female graduate from UNC-Chapel Hill and presently is a Copy Editor for The Winston-Salem Journal. She's going to share with us today her experiences from those days at UNC and her views on affirmative action, newspaper hiring practices, and some other issues affecting North Carolinians. Ms. Parker, welcome to Black Issues Forum.

Parker:
Thank you.

Holloway:
Let me first say thank you to your son who is an employee of UNC and he's very proud of you and he let us know of your experiences there at the institution. That must have been a very difficult yet challenging time for you to integrate UNC-Chapel Hill as the first black female student.

Parker:
Well, one interesting thing about it is that I didn't realize that's what I was until I had been there a little while and, so, that made it easier. You're already there. I didn't go in there and somebody said, "Well, you know, you're going to be the first black?"

Holloway:
Oh, really?

Parker:
I had no idea. I kind of discovered this when they put me in a dorm on the fourth floor, very top, in a room by myself and there was this empty bed, and I kept waiting for someone else to show up and nobody did. Bit by bit, I saw that there was not another one like me walking around and I finally did some inquiries and found out that I was, indeed, the first black female undergraduate they had enrolled there.

Holloway:
Now, this was in 1963?

Parker:
'63 that I came in, when I started.

Holloway:
Really not that long ago.

Parker:
Oh, yes, it was. (Laughter)

Holloway:
Well, I say that because when we think about the Jim Crow days and our days of segregation and civil rights, in terms of history of America, it really is not that long ago and when we think about now, I think UNC-Chapel Hill is 60 to 70% women and at least 10% black. There have been a lot of changes but it really is not that long ago when we had these problems.

Parker:
No, I guess it isn't, really, but when I was there, men outnumbered women about...I think it was at least easily 10:1. So, things have changed down there quite a bit, quite a lot.

Holloway:
Well, I would imagine there are a lot of stories you could share with us but what is probably one of your most memorable stories of that time?

Parker:
Most of my stories that I remember are the fun stories, like in the spring the girls would go out to tan. They had a little area, a tanning court, where they could go away from the eyes of men and tan, and at the end of the day the girls were all comparing wrists and looking at each other. I walked in the room and someone said, "Where did you get that tan?!" (Laughter) And I thought that was really neat because I was just one of the girls. If she had to stop and realize that...of course, I said, "I was born with it, thank you very much." (Laughter) I was just one of them and those things are encouraging, those are bright spots in times like that.

Holloway:
Well, there have been a lot of firsts in North Carolina and a lot of firsts at UNC-Chapel Hill. It was the first public educational institution 200 and some odd years ago, almost 210 years ago now, I guess, and there was a book put out on that, the first 200 years, and you asked to write something in that. Could you share with us?

Parker:
Yes. When they put the book together, someone contacted me and said, "Look, we've got all of these testimonials from people who said it was a wonderful place and we had a good time and we had lots of parties and the sports program was wonderful but we want to hear something about the side that was not so wonderful, especially that era of the Civil Rights Movement there in Chapel Hill." So, I wrote a piece for them and I had forgotten a lot of my experiences. And I had my journal and I went back to refresh myself and I had forgotten a lot of the negatives, I had forgotten a lot of the bad things, and the pain of some of those things came back to me when I read it but that enabled me to write a piece and give people an idea of what was going on then and what it was like for me to be by myself in a way then.

Holloway:
Can you share with us some of those struggles because I think the larger society and probably even blacks don't take the time to remember those things, maybe, except for February, Black History Month, or during Martin Luther King's holiday, but what were some of the things that you shared in that first 200 years, some of the problems and struggles that you went through?

Parker:
Well, one thing...what we were doing...we had a group of black and white students who were demonstrating in downtown Chapel Hill to be admitted to restaurants and there were two restaurants that had voluntarily desegregated, which was kind of wonderful because no place else in the state had things like that going on. And we would get out and we'd walk into a restaurant and they'd tell us they don't serve colored people and we'd say, "We don't eat them, thank you." And they'd call the cops and we did the Martin Luther King, the passive resistance, and we'd drop to the sidewalk and they'd haul us away to jail. Our goal was to fill up the jail in Chapel Hill and we did that and we flowed over to Hillsborough, and it was quite a to-do for a while there. And one of the wildest things we did was block every intersection going out of Chapel Hill right after a Duke-Carolina basketball game. There was some mad people and, of course, we were told that "you might be taking your life in your hands" but everybody came out of it alive.

Holloway:
So, I imagine there weren't that many blacks at UNC-Chapel Hill. If you were the first female, there were probably only a few black males. Were the other blacks from the community of Chapel Hill or from other institutions?

Parker:
No, they were from other institutions. One of them was my cousin, Larry Poe, who is now an Admiral in the United States Navy, and he was from East Spencer. And there were about, I think, 45 other guys and they were from various places. I can't remember where everybody was from. One was from Thomasville. It was just a handful of us that graduated in that class of '65. Now, behind that, the class behind us, was about double our size and, of course, now it's not an issue anymore.

Holloway:
Well, before we move on to some of the issues now that you may want to reflect on, there was also a book that was written called The Activist's Daughter and a white female wrote this book and used a lot of your comments and your notes. And that book has been put out recently and I think we have just a graphic of that, just to share that with our audience, but that book has been put out. You want to share with us some of your thoughts on that book and what you contributed to that?

Parker:
Well, it came about...I was working for The Los Angeles Times. I was Sunday News Editor for The Los Angeles Times and I got a phone call one day from a woman saying that she was writing a book and in the book she was going to refer to Civil Rights activism and she, herself, knew nothing about it. And she had gotten my name through the university alumni association and could I do anything to help her, could I tell her anything, and I said, "Well, I can't really tell you anything off the top of my head but I kept a journal at that time and why I don't copy off some pages of it and send it to you?" And I did that and I forgot about it and I didn't hear anything else about it until last May. I got a phone call from a reporter in Chapel Hill saying, "The Activist's Daughter is out and we'd like to interview you as part of our review of the book," and that was the first I knew about it. And shortly after that I met the author, Ellen Bache...very nice person...and we had a good time sharing memories of Chapel Hill but she didn't know me personally then nor did I know her. She was aware that there was a black women there but she based a lot of her book on my journals. She took a couple of experiences verbatim out of my journals, too, as part of her book.

Holloway:
Well, I imagine that you had quite a few experiences that you learned from there, that you took on into your professional career. Tell us what your career pattern was or what you were majoring in at that time and how you were able to turn that into a career.

Parker:
Well, I was encouraged to go into journalism by a black reporter at the Winston-Salem paper by the name of Louis Overby and he was one of the founders of the National Association of Black Journalists. He said, "You're pretty good at this. Why don't you go down to Chapel Hill..." - I was at Greensboro at the time -"...and major in journalism?" And I did and I loved journalism. I found it was a natural home and copy editing, in particular, was where I wanted to be. I enjoyed that more so than writing. And I got out of school there and wrote umpteen papers and that was just about the time where a lot of organizations were willing to give black people a try. It was pre-Affirmative Action but we were getting into the era where people said, "Well, gee, you know, maybe somebody might have something to contribute." So, I interviewed at several places and I ended up in Grand Rapids, Michigan and that was my first newspaper job. And I bounced from there to Rochester, New York to Los Angeles to Salt Lake City and now I'm back in North Carolina at the paper I started on in Winston-Salem.

Holloway:
Are you a North Carolina native?

Parker:
Yes, I am, born and bred in Salisbury.

Holloway:
All right. Well, let's talk about how those times have changed. You mentioned that was pre-Affirmative Action. We're now at a time that's come full circle. We've had Affirmative Action. California has tested that and has Proposition 209. North Carolina may be one of the next testing grounds. What do you feel about...you've seen it before Affirmative Action, you've seen it through these times, and now you're seeing it about to be abolished. What are your thoughts on Affirmative Action?

Parker:
I say, "Thank God for Affirmative Action," because I can't imagine where a lot of black people would be today if we had not had it. Before Affirmative Action, when I came through, I think there are very few blacks, who came through that time period and became successful, who did not get a break from some white person because some white person at least had to say or to think, "Well, maybe they're not all ignorant...maybe they can do this job...maybe I should give a person a chance...show us what you can do." That's what was done with me. Some people took a chance and they gave me a chance to show what I could do and I could do it. Almost everybody got some sort of break. Somebody gave them the time of day at least to let them show their professional expertise. For some black people to say, "Well, yes, I was a product of that but we don't need it anymore," it's absolutely hypocritical. That bothers me quite a bit.

Holloway:
So, you were a product of that. Prior to it, you saw that there was a need then to have it legislated and we still have not "arrived"...where it's still a need for this Affirmative Action to take place.

Parker:
Very much so, I think. I don't think...people say, "Well, it's race preference." It's not race preference. If it had not been for Affirmative Action, a lot of us wouldn't have gotten the time of day. That's the truth and there are a lot of successful black people out there that we never would have heard of if it had not been for that.

Holloway:
Well, what do you say to those who have a different definition in terms of quotas or race preferences because maybe the whole issue and definition of Affirmative Action is debatable? I think most people would agree that there was some wrongdoing and something needs to be done but, yet, they're still questioning whether or not Affirmative Action should continue.

Parker:
I don't have any ironclad answers for that. I think it should continue. It may need to be modified somewhat but I think it should continue. It's easy to say, when you have not been in the shoes of a struggling person, that you don't need that. It's easy to say but reality is another thing and I hope that we can work around the current definition of Affirmative Action and still give people an opportunity to get into the education system and to get into the professional job system.

Holloway:
In terms of the education system, are you concerned that your alma mater, UNC-Chapel Hill, may not revert back to where it was when you first came there but if it is abolished, Affirmative Action, that is, do you think the numbers will reduce because President Broad has stated to the chancellors to take a closer look at this?

Parker:
Somehow, I would like to have faith in Carolina. They were sort of in the forefront for the state at the time that I came in and other blacks came in and I would hope they keep up their tradition. They have a fine educational system and they've done a wonderful job of including everyone, all of the people representing the state, so far and I really hope they keep it up. And I will try to have faith that they will not reduce any numbers or discourage anyone.

Holloway:
Well, let's talk about your profession now, specifically, of journalism. When we look at the communications field more broadly, broadcasting as well as print, you see a lot of national ownership of chains and group ownership. And, so, the local owner, whether it's a print publication or broadcast publication, is almost a thing of the past now in major urban areas, particularly in print journalism. How do you feel about blacks and other minorities having equal opportunities to be able to be employed in meaningful positions?

Parker:
It is definitely better than it was and is, of course, tremendously better from when I came into it when there were probably a handful of blacks in the whole country in the newspaper business. And now we have a National Association of Black Journalists; there are enough of us to form an organization. I've been to a couple of conventions and it's just wonderful to see all of the black people, young, old timers like me, who are in both broadcast and print. And I just recently was at a minority job fair, recruiting down at UNC, and there are a fine bunch of young black people who are just now coming into journalism. I do get upset at employers who make the excuse, "Well, we'd love to hire some blacks but we don't know any qualified ones." Well, if you expect them to parachute into your news room, you probably are not going to, but there are people there now to be employed and you might have to go looking for some of them and try to convince them that your paper is worth their time. But the excuses of "We don't know anybody"...the papers who have done a good job with Affirmative Action, they've gone to the National Association of Black Journalists, they've gone to colleges and to journalism schools, and they've let people know that they do have an intention and they want to hire black people and that's necessary. Too much of the industry has made that excuse and still there are very few blacks, in terms of our numbers in the population, in journalism, print and broadcast.

Holloway:
A number of institutions are abolishing their communications program or reducing them. Even UNC-Chapel Hill recently has abolished the Radio, TV and Film Department and it's part of the Journalism School, I understand now. Do you think also there's an obligation on the part of the academic institutions, as well as the owners, to develop more talent coming into the industry?

Parker:
Probably so. I haven't given a lot of thought to that one. You caught me off guard. (Laughter) I'm not going to talk about things I don't know anything about.

Holloway:
Okay, that's all right. Well, I know that seems to be an issue and if there are more out there, in terms of compared to where it was 20 or 30 years ago, but, yet, I think there is a decline on the number of students entering, especially if the programs aren't as developed there. And it would seem to me...I mean, would you feel comfortable in looking at some of the papers or even broadcasters...I'm speaking generally of communications...in terms of their own efforts for developing new talent, do you think that that's being done enough?

Parker:
No, no, it is not. It absolutely is not.

Holloway:
What can be done?

Parker:
Again, they have to start at the beginning. Go over to the high schools...say...for instance, let's say it was Raleigh. Go to the predominantly black high schools in Raleigh and say, "We are interested in training young people, we are interested in mentoring young people, to go into this business and if you have interest , we will find someone to help you, encourage you, along the way through high school, on through college, onto getting started in internship programs so that you can find your comfortable way in." Because a lot of black students don't realize that it's out there and they can do it and it's also incumbent upon the black professionals to also go back and say, "Look, I did it. It's not easy but it can be done and please look up to some of us professionals who have been around and we will help you because we know it's not easy."

Holloway:
And you say this, really, for practically any field of study, couldn't you?

Parker:
Yes, you could.

Holloway:
Tell our audience, that may not be aware, as to why there's really a need, particularly in the media field, for African-Americans to be represented in every level of position.

Parker:
Well, if nothing else, it will keep a lot of predominantly white papers from getting embarrassed. A lot of white papers, their management and their rank-in-file, their reporters and their editors, mean very well, their intentions are good, and I applaud that but there are some things about the black community they don't understand and there's just no way they're going to. For example, the Winston-Salem paper right now is preparing to do a series on race relations in Winston-Salem and a lot of white reporters, they've had to go talk to white people and they've had to go talk to black people about the issue of racism and how they feel about it. And one thing that we have discovered is that neither side will tell you the complete truth and that you're going to have to look past the surface of what people say to get a feeling for what's really going on. A lot of blacks will not talk about negative things, a lot of whites were seeing no problem whatsoever, and none of this is the exact truth and this whole experience for our paper is going to be something when we get it all put together. But I looked at some of the stories that had been done and pointed out a couple of things to the writers, in terms of from my perspective, from the black person's perspective, "This is nonsense" or "This is very good." And sometimes that input is needed. Well, sometimes, a lot of times, especially in any city that has a good sized black community.

Holloway:
Just a few minutes left. What would you say about the predominantly black media, the black newspapers, the black radio stations, and black television programming? Is there a need for that still today in the 90s? On into 2000 really?

Parker:
Yes, there is a need for that and a lot of those organizations have to keep their eyes open, too, because there is a big wide world out there. One of the things I first had to realize when I went down to Carolina, that it wasn't just the black community anymore, there's everything and you either want to be a part of this big scene or you want to live in your own little, encapsulated world. Living in an isolated fashion or working in an isolated fashion doesn't cut it anymore in this society. It's practically impossible, so black people need to keep their eyes open, they need to participate in things. There are a lot of things out there for us, for everybody, but we have to go after it.

Holloway:
You know, that's one of the criticisms, I guess, of this program and even some of the black newspapers and radio stations as to why there is a need and that's one of the reasons I asked you that question. Any final comments you'd like to make in general about just your views in general on race relations in North Carolina?

Parker:
Well, I was gone for a way. When I graduated from Carolina, I went off immediately to my first job, which was up in Michigan, and I came back only recently. I came back in 1996 and I had to deal with culture shock in a way because when I left, things were very much in a segregated state, and I come back and I can walk in those restaurants and I can go into those stores and when I go in, they'll say, "How are you doing, Ms. Parker? Thank you very much for your service," where before the attitude was completely different. My children...my husband and I...our children don't remember when there was a time that blacks couldn't go into a store or couldn't go down to but one beach on the coast of North Carolina, and I think we should not forget about that because it's important to know where you came from to be able to keep going forward.

Holloway:
Well, that's interesting at a time when the movie Amistad is out and take it back even further to slavery and I know your husband also attended A&T and has struggled through the civil rights with you and has some similar viewpoints. Do you want to take it back even further than that in terms of where we came from?

Parker:
The first thing I remember I was seven years old and I could read the newspaper and there was a Disney thing that was going on in Winston-Salem. And I told my mother I wanted to go and she said, "You can't 'cause you're black." Or Negro at that time. That was a shock!

Holloway:
Well, it's been not a shock but a pleasure to talk with you and congratulations on your successes and we thank you so much for joining us, Karen L. Parker. And, of course, it really has only been a few short decades since blacks have been allowed to integrate our schools, vote, and legally have equal employment opportunities. Even though we have come a long way in 30 short years, we hope that tonight's program has caused you to re-examine your views and your actions surrounding these issues. If you would like more information about tonight's issues or if you have questions or comments about tonight's show, please contact us at the numbers and address on your screen or you may visit us on the World Wide Web at www.unctv.org/bif or e-mail us at bif@unctv.org. Thank you very much for watching Black Issues Forum. I'm your host, Jay Holloway. You have a blessed evening and a good night. [MUSIC] Black Issues Form - Karen L. Parker