Austin:
Glad to be here, Jay.

Holloway:
And also broadcaster and author of 'Amen, Brother, Somebody Had To Say It' Mr. Tom Joyner. Thank you very much for being on our program.

Joyner:
Thank you.

Holloway:
And this is his book here that we'd just like to remind you 'Amen, Brother, Somebody Had To Say It' is at your local bookstores. Let's start right off with the difficult and controversial subject of affirmative action. It suffers an identity crisis, and perhaps many of us, when we say it, may be thinking about something totally different, but Mr. Joyner, let's ask you first, what are your views on affirmative action and I guess how do you define it when you view it that way.

Joyner:
I think how you define it is the key. I think you are absolutely right, it becomes muddled. I think anybody of good will who is against equal opportunity ought not to be seeking equal opportunity for themselves. So I think everybody deserves the same opportunity. Not necessarily the same results. I don't believe in quotas and set asides and preferences. I don't think that you should be considered for a job because of skin color any more than I should, that if there are only five people in Harlem, since there are only five white people there, three of them ought to be in major positions, it doesn't make any sense to me. But equal opportunity, I am for that.

Holloway:
What would you say to that, Mr. Austin.

Austin:
Well, when we look at affirmative action, it has been brought about because African Americans did not have the opportunity for years past. And affirmative action is designed in order to give them that fair opportunity that has been taken away from the African American community for hundreds of years. So, I am a staunch supporter of affirmative action. It is not quotas, it is not set asides, but it is more opportunities for African Americans who have not had that opportunity before in the past.

Joyner:
But the only way you can measure it is by numbers. And so it becomes a quota, whether you want it to become a quota or not, until you reach those numbers, until you reach that quota. You can't stop. That I think is the big problem with it. I don't disagree with Skip's premise, the past wrongs, I don't disagree with that at all. But at some point if you can have equal opportunity, if you and I get to start at the same line and run the same race then you should not, then I should not have to be weighted down or you pushed along in order to determine who is going to win that race.

Holloway:
Let me state this is another way. We had a gentleman Professor Bidding from NC State describe affirmative action the most unique I've ever heard. He used the basketball game as an analogy. Imagine that the first half of the game is being played and at the half-time both coaches, all the team members, the fans and the officials all agree that the referees and officials have been cheating for one team. Everyone agrees. The question at half-time is what do we do during the second half. Affirmative action. So, I mean, are you going to cheat for one team, do you add points to another team, do you take points away. And maybe that is the root of what we are talking about here. We say ultimately it is going to be measured by numbers. What do you all say to that.

Austin:
Well, I think that is a kind of a buzz word that a lot of whites that are against affirmative action try to use in order to incite the overwhelming majority of our white population. Set asides, quotas, those are the things that a lot of whites don't particularly like and they try to associate it with affirmative action. Blacks are never asked, we are not asking for quotas, we are not asking for set asides, we are asking for fair opportunities. And when you look at affirmative action, and the only thing affirmative action does is give African Americans that opportunity, whereas whites have not been willing to give that opportunity in the past. And now they are trying to use the racist buzz words to try to scare off anyone that might want to support a just cause, as far as being fair and open and removing the glass ceiling, and trying to use those buzz words in order to eliminate even the thought of affirmative action.

Joyner:
So, then if there are five white people in Harlem, three of them do have to be given some sort of position, because they obviously have been held back in Harlem. There is no way to measure it without it being a quota. We have to reach a certain number. That becomes a quota. There is no other way to do that. I do agree that everybody should have an equal opportunity. I think it is abhorrent that somebody would be considered not qualified because of skin color. But I also think it is just as abhorrent in, taking your analogy of a basketball game, that we say, okay, let's do that in the next game, let's do that next season, let's do that three seasons from now. I'd love to be considered, by the way, for Michael Jordan's salary. But I can't jump that high. But the predominant number of people on the Chicago Bulls are black, and they are making tremendous amounts of dollars. Do we say, oh, wait a minute, we've got to, now put some white guys on there just because they are white guys, I don't think so.

Austin:
But the opportunity was there for whites to compete for those same jobs that Michael Jordan and the rest of the players had. But they chose, they chose basically the best person. And we are not asking anyone to settle for someone of less quality, someone of less skills, just because they happen to be black. The only thing we are asking for is the opportunity. If those five whites in Harlem had been enslaved for 250 years and then gone through another 200 years of legal segregation and discrimination then they should be given some fair opportunities. But that is not the case. African Americans are the only ones who have been enslaved for over 250 years and also had to go through an institutional racism for another 200 years. So, now, the only thing we are saying, not to try to give us back those 450 years, not to try to make up for that, just take your foot off our back, now we will be able to get it for ourselves. We are not asking for any handouts, we are not asking for any special treatment other than the fact of fair opportunity, let us get to the table and we will take it from there.

Holloway:
Is it fair to say, Mr. Joyner, that because of slavery and other issues throughout American history that blacks are at a disadvantage so therefore you acknowledge that, you affirm that and then you should take some action on that.

Joyner:
Mmhmm. I think we have been taking action. I think we have laws on the books to help create equal opportunity. Equal result is a whole different ball game. Blacks are not the only ones who have been disadvantaged. Five percent or less of the American people owned slaves, even in the worst of slavery. 95% did not. My family, that is to the best of my knowledge, and I chased them all the way back to Charlemagne, found some rogues and scoundrels but didn't find any slave owners. They didn't have the money to buy any slaves. My people came here as an indentured servant from England originally and used seven years of their life to earn passage in here. So, it is a little bit difficult for me to say, well, gee, only the black people have been disadvantaged. I think it is more an economic issue. But now one thing I want to make sure we agree on before we end this conversation. I am not against equal opportunity, I am for that. And I think any way we can find to do that, if there is a middle ground between what Skip and I are talking about, then I am perfectly willing to go for that. I do not want to disadvantage anybody.

Austin:
If we look at the fact that, and you want to use an analogies of professional basketball. Blacks were forbidden from playing professional basketball some years back. But when we got the opportunity to play basketball, then we saw who the better person was. That is why you have a majority of African Americans now playing basketball. When you allowed us to get into baseball, now you have a large percentage of African Americans are good and they are succeeding in basketball. The only thing we are asking for are the opportunities. But the opportunities were not there from a legal standpoint. Blacks could not play professional football, they could not play professional basketball or baseball. But now that we have the opportunity, we are not asking anyone to spot us five points, okay, or give us some higher platform shoes so we can jump. We proved that when we got to the table, when we have the opportunity, then we will take it from there. But we're just fighting for the opportunity, and that is what affirmative action is all about. Given that opportunity then we will succeed and we will exceed far better than, basically, I would say, the average white person. Because they did not have to go through the struggles that blacks had to get to, go through, in order to get to the table. They were there by the privilege of their white skin. We were denied a place at the table because of our black skin.

Holloway:
Let's deal with that, Mr. Joyner. You say that it may not be fair to say that it was only because of African Americans, and you talked about your family coming over, but there was one difference, and what Mr. Austin just said, was the skin color. That you could, a black could be readily discriminated against just based on appearance. But you and your family did not necessarily have that distinction.

Joyner:
It is interesting that you mentioned that. And if I can get to something here. There is a newspaper article that I have kept for a long, long time. A gentleman went back and he took some information from slaves and they were talking about what happened when the poor whites came to the master's doorstep too. They weren't even allowed to approach the door. They had to send up to the door, and I'll leave this with you because it is kind of interesting, they had to send one of the black slaves to the door to repeat what they needed and then they went away. So, I've always contended, this is more of an economic issue than it is just black and white. I've never talked about this before, but I have in my own family, my mother's youngest brother, Jay, whose skin is the same color of yours if not a little darker. There is a lot of Indian blood going back through my family. But he is not, and he was caught in this back in the fifties, so I know a little bit more about this than the average Joe here. I do understand the trials and tribulations and nobody abhors slavery any more than I do. I read about it, there's a new book now out on the slave trade, and I'm reading that. I try to understand it. I do believe that we have to give equal opportunity. No man or woman should be disallowed to play basketball or to compete for the CEO's job. But, having been in business when the federal government says to me, you must hire a black person for this particular position, I have a problem with that.

Holloway:
Let me say to our audience, we will post this article which is entitled 'Slavery In The Words Of Those Who Lived It.' It is a William Raspberry column, we will post it on our website.

Austin:
Also, Jay, when we look at economics and try to compare that and say that that is the real crust of this problem, I don't agree with that, number one, because if Tom can sit here and I can sit here, they don't know how much money which of us has. But they which one is black, they know which one is white. So, it is not economics, I might have more money than Tom, but the fact that I am black, that is going to make my struggle a whole lot harder than Tom. He can have less money than I have, but he would have more opportunities given to him because of the color of his skin. I have more opportunities taken away from me, because of the color of my skin, not for the amount of money that I have.

Joyner:
And I won't argue that point. That we have to find, I think, some place in the middle between what is considered absolute affirmative action by some and to be taking advantage by others, there is somewhere in between.

Holloway:
Now, I know we can't resolve this issue on this program, but does anyone have any suggestions, where is the middle ground with this. If we acknowledge that we want to treat people equal and that there is some discrimination going on, can we at least define, in a gray area, where that gray area is.

Joyner:
I think we started to do that by dialogue. As I say, there's got to be some common ground. And we don't find common ground by calling each other names and not talking to one another. I want to understand better why Skip thinks the way he thinks. And I'd like him to understand why the way I think the way I think. Doesn't mean we have to adopt each other's position. But somewhere in the middle, he can give an inch and I can give an inch and we'll find the common ground. I think we've already started on that. Unfortunately, inasmuch as I respect the governor and don't like Mr. Clinton nearly as well, both, I think, have started out by getting groups get together and preach to the choir.

Austin:
And I agree with that, we do have to have the dialogue. But I think that, number one, I've always said this and I said this to the governor when I participated in his race relations conference before in that you are preaching to the choir, but we need to make sure that the right people understand that they have the power in order to end racism and allow them to do it. And when I say the right people I mean the white community. And a lot of people don't like me saying that, but the fact is there, that if white's woke up tomorrow morning and they said that they wanted to end racism it would be done. If I woke up tomorrow morning and said I wanted to end racism, it is not going to happen. Whites have the power to end racism. I have no power to end racism. Whites own all of the factories, all the jobs, they have all the big, all the wealth in this entire country. I have none of that. So, for whatever I say, they can discount it and say, that is your opinion but this is the way we are going to do it because we have the power to say what we are going to do and what we are not going to do.

Joyner:
But when you look at Dudley products and Johnson products and Beatrice Foods, whites don't have all the money and all the power. And we have to look beyond this. We don't want to get to where we are asking for an impossible standard. Because you can look right here in this community and find problems with the black community finding a scapegoat for itself in the Hispanic community. That has been going on for ever and ever and ever. So we have to be careful not to ask for an impossible standard. I don't think we can end racism if every white person in the country wanted to end racism tomorrow, and I would hope they would. I don't think that is going to happen. We are going to have isolated instances of things like is happening in Denver where these skinheads are attacking black people. Nobody abhors that more than I do. If it were up to me we would go past the trial and go right on to execution. But you are going to have idiots in the white community. And I submit to you we have idiots in the black community, present company excepted.

Austin:
Well, be that as it may, the point of the matter is that blacks control very small percentages of wealth. You only named three influential, wealthy corporations. There are thousands and millions of white corporations that I can sit here and name. But you can only name three that you just thought of. Basically probably Johnson products might be another. But the point of the matter is that is very small, less than a fraction of a percent, and the whites own 99.9% of the wealth, basically, in this country. And we have to realize that when you are dealing with institutional racism, the only people that can take that, that can solve that problem are the people who own it.

Holloway:
Share with us, off camera you shared some statistics about percentages of whites and their views based on an article.

Austin:
I was reading this book called 'White To White on Black And White' by Toni Weaver and basically she points out the fact that all white people are not racists and all white people are not bad. Whites have basically been involved in the civil rights movement since it started. Back with Harriet Tubman and the Underground Railroad. But the point of the matter is that, the way that she states it, 15% of the whites you are not going to able to change their mind, that's the KKK, the skinheads and those other people that don't want to have anything to do with blacks. Then you've got 25% of whites that feel that blacks were done wrong, slavery was wrong, they were the ones that helped Dr. King and the people in the civil rights movement get just treatment. But you have the 60% of whites that are just going along with the norm. If it is against the law for you to drink out of that water fountain, until they change that law, you can't drink out of that water fountain. Even though they feel that it is wrong, they are conforming with the laws and an unjust law, as Dr. King said, is not a good law.

Holloway:
And Mr. Joyner, you said this is not a conservative/liberal issue...

Joyner:
And I would question their figures. I wouldn't question their figures in the fifties, but I would question their figures today on the 60%. I don't question the 15% anymore than I question that there is a segment of the black community that you are not going to change. The radical black community just hates white people period. You are not going to change them. I don't know if it is 15% because you are not going to change that. But the only thing I would differ with her on is the 60%. I think that might be a little high. In the fifties, maybe, but not today. I just don't encounter people who believe that you ought to drink out of a different colored fountain these days, I just don't think it is there. Obviously the 15%, I don't argue about that.

Holloway:
Let me move to the discussion that both of you all agree on, is that the dialogue that the governor and president are talking about that you need to do more with that. One of the criticisms also was that there was an obvious void at the table. And we talked about the relationship between racism and economics. But the have-nots, the people that are working every day, low wage workers, who are dealing with this every day. You know, there are two schools of thoughts, that they have more amongst each other in common economically than they do race. Now, the other viewpoint is that, no, you are still black or you are still white. Either of you care to comment.

Joyner:
It has been my experience that you get two ordinary people, one black, one white, sitting down to talk to each other, they find more things to agree with than to disagree with. And they find a way to get along with one another without either one having to take a subservient position. It is only when you get groups together and somebody has got to pound their chest, whether it is black or white, pound their chest and take over the meeting that you start having real problems. I think we agree more in this country. I think the media does us a great disservice. I think we agree more in this country than maybe Skip thinks we do, or that maybe that even I think we do. I think the average people tend to agree more in terms of should you have equal opportunity, should you be penalized for being black. I just don't think it is out there in as great a numbers as the media would have us believe. And if may, I don't want to dominate it, the reason I say that is because we talk about the skinheads, how many are we talking about in Denver doing this. We are talking about a handful that black and white people ought to abhor. We had a celebration for Tawana Brawley the other day, and you look at that as a white person the other day and you look at that as a white person and you think, boy, how can they do that. And then you think, wait a minute, how many people were at that celebration, a relative handful.

Austin:
And I really, Jay, also that if we as Americans, black and white, really take a look at this whole situation, it is like a game plan. That means that the wealthy whites, the white male figures, they have us, meaning the poor blacks and whites, we are fighting over the crumbs, and they will throw a crumb out there and they will say, you are white, you should get that, but don't let that black get that. They have us down here fighting for the crumbs while they are eating steak at the big house. So, and that is wrong. Until we learn to recognize that, that we are not each other's enemy, if we form a coalition, together we can change the laws that govern all of this, that keep the poor poor and puts the glass ceiling up there for blacks, some blacks and some whites. But we have not come to that agreement yet. That we have more in common that we have uncommon.

Holloway:
That is interesting, we keep talking about the wealth issue here. Macy L. Sloan, a black millionaire here in North Carolina said to me on this program that if wealth were to be redistributed today, equally, it still would probably be held in the hands of a relatively small percentage of the total population. But the difference, if it was equitable, it would be reflected amongst all different diverse group of people, it wouldn't be majority white male, but you would have 15% black and female and some other minorities in there and it would be more equally distributed that way.

Joyner:
And yes it would. But give it a certain number of years, and not very many, I'd say about 10 years down the road, and the money would be back in the same hands. And that would be black people as well as white and Hispanic. The key is education, the key is being in the position and making yourself go. I've been very, very poor and I've had money and I've seen it from both sides. But the key is education. Nobody gave me mine. And I'll tell you, nobody in the black community does that either. When I sold WQOK 97.5, I sold it on purpose to a black entrepreneur. I had a little bit more money offered by a white man and the guy who bought it was a great guy and he put together a super chain of radio stations and he sold them to one of the biggest white companies in the country and made a pot full of money. He didn't go look for a black person to sell that to. It was business. It wasn't racial with him, he wasn't, nothing to do with that. He basically said, whoever has got the most money can have this.

Holloway:
You address that in your book, I read that. But now, one issue, in terms of affirmative action, years ago the FCC gave preferential treatment. And now I think that has been abolished and now you have a lot of group owners now as owning a lot of stations in local marketplaces and it is prohibiting a minority to build.

Joyner:
Not just a minority. I can't afford them either these days, Jay. And I spoke out against that. And the North Carolina Association of Broadcasters was the only state organization that spoke out against allowing this people to own so many radio stations. But what happened when the preferences were there is that people took advantage of it. And they got a black person to front the group, got the license, sold it, and everybody made money and went home. So, it didn't work that way.

Holloway:
Mr. Austin, less than a minute left. What would you finally say to people across our state, diverse, both black and white, as the state chair of NAACP.

Austin:
That if we really want to solve the racism question here in North Carolina let's sit down and talk about it. Let's have some honest and frank dialogue. What are your fears. Understand my fears. I respect you, you respect me, let's check our egos at the door and let's really sit down and deal with this problem of racism. If we have a problem on the white community side, let's correct that problem. If you have a problem on the black community side, let's correct that problem. But let's have some serious dialogue about racism in this state.

Holloway:
I want to thank you gentleman, both, for having some serious dialogue on these tough issues today and thank you very much for being here. And thank you for watching Black Issues Forum, again. Hopefully you are better informed now to make your decisions, your own independent decisions on affirmative action. Meaningful dialogue that you will do in our state amongst, across racial lines. And think about the whole economic issue too, as it relates to race. If you'd like more information on this topic, please phone us at the number on your screen, fax us or mail us at the address as well, on your screen. Or visit us on the World Wide Web at WWW.unctv/bif or send us e-mail at bif@unctv.org. I'm Jay Holloway, thank you so very much for watching Black Issues Forum again. You have a pleasant good evening and a good night.