Holloway:
Afrocentric education, a strategy to better meet the needs of black children, are an experiment in racial resegregation. That's next on Black Issues Forum. Stay tuned.

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Holloway:
Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm your host, Jay Holloway. Good evening. In an effort to close the gap between test scores of black and white children in North Carolina, an Afrocentric program is being implemented at Diggs Elementary School-actually it's one class there in Winston-Salem. And to discuss the pros and cons of this program we have with us Ms. Ann Jenkins, she's a teacher in the Afrocentric program at Diggs Elementary School in Winston-Salem-welcome to the program. And also Larry Fields; Mr. Fields is Principal of Latham Elementary School, also of Winston-Salem. And of course both schools were requested to start an Afrocentric program. Latham Elementary School denied that request, so we're here to discuss this issue today, and thank you both for coming in and talking about the Winston-Salem issue there.

Let's start right off, I was about to say Ms. Diggs, but Ms. Jenkins at Diggs Elementary School. Define for our audience what an Afrocentric education or curriculum is, because we're talking Afrocentric, that means it's probably not Eurocentric.

Jenkins:
That's correct. The Afrocentric educational program at Diggs provides an education that is focused on the African-American child's culture and things that are relevant in their environment and history. We particularly look at the tradition and we encourage the parents to be more involved in the program than would be asked of other parents, in that the parents are required to provide an hour of service each week in the classroom. Afrocentricity also exposes the child to the development of letters and numbers and science concepts based on information that has come to us from the African-American perspective. That is, we look at the contributions of Africans and African-Americans to those particular subject areas.

Holloway:
Let me ask Mr. Fields, on the surface, that doesn't sound controversial, at least to me. But what is all the controversy, why is this not widely accepted in the Winston-Salem public schools, but certainly not in North Carolina? I should add, this is the only publicly funded Afrocentric program in the state of North Carolina, right?

Jenkins:
That's correct.

Holloway:
What's the controversy about?

Fields:
The controversy centers around basic fears that most folk do not have about knowing what Afrocentrism is all about. In some circles it's characterized as racist, because of those thoughts, in that we're talking about focusing in on one group, which is really not the case because if you follow Asante's _______, it's all inclusive-

Holloway:
Now this is Liffy K. Asante __________.

Fields:
But it's perceived as being an isolation kind of program or project, for starters. And there are families out there who want the Eurocentric approach to education, because of tests and assessments that are out there that are driving, promotions, and so forth in this state. That's basically the controversy. It's a fear thing for the most part.

Holloway:
So if there's a fear, why are the people having the fear of someone teaching kids about their own heritage, that in many cases you're still teaching the standard course of curriculum, course of study?

Jenkins:
Right. I think the main fear is that the program perpetuates hate. That's a myth that's out there that we are teaching the kids to hate other cultures, and that isn't it at all. The Afrocentric program focuses on the positives of African-American contributions to society as a whole, and it's about developing self-esteem, it's about setting high moral standards, and providing the children with enough risk-taking ability that they will meet challenges and find their place in society. We do talk about other cultures; we do not just isolate ourselves and say that "oh, we're the best, and we're egotistical about it." But rather my emphasis and focus has been, "you're just as good as, and you can do thus and so," and it's a matter of having a positive attitude about oneself and seeking out the support systems and the resources to succeed.

Holloway:
Now that implies that the reason why maybe in North Carolina, a large amount of minorities, specifically African-American students, may be underperforming at these key test levels. It's maybe because of the self-esteem or the Eurocentric curriculum, that doesn't enhance their self-esteem and abilities or opportunities to learn as much. Is that why an Afrocentric curriculum . . .?

Jenkins:
There is limited exposure, now there is some exposure with the textbooks moving more toward multicultural education and having more ethnic groups represented in the textbooks. But for us, we need to be able to see ourselves in those textbooks more readily, and North Carolina as a whole has not really represented the range or the amount of contributions that the African-Americans have made to history. Would you agree with that, Mr. Fields?

Fields:
I agree. One of the things that I'd like to add to what Ms. Jenkins just stated is that, in order for a nation or a group of people to experience any academic excellence, there has to be cultural excellence. And that is the cornerstone of education in terms of what drives us; in order to be successful we have to feel good about ourselves. We have to feel good about what we do, there has to be role models out there for us to see and touch and emulate, and "parrot" to say. Without that, we'll continue to have performance gaps in the various counties in this state and across this state in terms of how majority/minority students are feeling and performing. And it's not going to go away unless one drives the other: the instructional piece has got to drive the tests in terms of where we're going with this.

Holloway:
The issue of Afrocentric versus Eurocentric. Would you say and confirm that the North Carolina standard course of study is from a Eurocentric point of view?

Fields:
Everything I've seen so far is basically Eurocentric. They've done a good job of removing some of the bias, cultural biases that are embedded or would normally be embedded in a test, but there's another problem here that brings on the gap in terms of performance, and that's readiness. And one of the strong points of the Afrocentric program is to get parents involved, to get the parents involved to the point where they're teaching the culture at home. We can't make any of this fly without parents. And that in itself should drive the desire to learn, to be positive about oneself and one's contribution.

Holloway:
You don't sound like you're really opposed to this, but why didn't your school take on . . .

Fields:
I'm not opposed to it at all, I'm very open-minded about it. At the time that the school took the vote, we were 50% white, 50% black, and the staff at that particular time was in the process of doing another project, another program that dealt with technology. And we felt that it would have been a little too much on our plate to take on two programs. And if we were to start the program, we would want to have done a whole school situation, to see the effects of it.

Holloway:
A large majority of the viewers of this network are white. And you said, Ms. Jenkins, that part of the criticism of Afrocentric education is that it is racist. What can you say to our white viewers, when they think that, well if what you're teaching does not have the same figures and things that they're used to seeing in their history and textbooks, and it doesn't mention the European culture, then yes it must be racist, and they really believe that.

Jenkins:
It's not that we don't mention the European culture, but it's important to point out truths in education. That should be the basis of all education, arriving at the truth. So what we do is point out some of the misconceptions and some of the myths, and we apply logic and make deductions and arrive at conclusions that anybody would arrive at regardless of what culture they're from.

Holloway:
Give us an example.

Jenkins:
One thing that was recent was the study of Native Americans, and the fact that it's believed that the Europeans taught the Native Americans civilization, so to speak. But the Native Americans knew how to fish and hunt and plant long before the Europeans came over. The Europeans continued to call the Native American "Indian." Well, that's a misnomer. Indians are from India. So that's one of the examples of just weeding out the truth, bringing the truth to the forefront.

Holloway:
Well, one of the things in terms of, in Afrocentric education, is the idea-and you addressed it a little bit earlier-that you do not exclude some of the other things, but you really put emphasis on the Afrocentric. There's a lot of discussion about multicultural education and including all of that within the structure. Let's ask you, Mr. Fields, first, how do you compare a multicultural curriculum somewhere between the North Carolina standard course of study and Afrocentric type.

Fields:
Well, the multicultural approach is close to the North Carolina standard course or piece. Now here again, multicultural, that's a big word in terms of a definition, because you can include in that population all races, sexes, genders, you name it. But the underlying thing here is that everybody have the opportunity to celebrate his or her culture, exemplary things about their culture, in both areas, in multiculturalism as well as Afrocentrism.

Holloway:
If this program turns out to provide better test scores for Afro-American kids, and they did better, and I guess there's some history to show that around the country because this is not a new concept, it's going on several, certainly, urban areas around the country. Then what would be the problem with the state or other school districts around the state adopting programs like this in an effort to improve test scores and improve achievement of African-American students in particular.

Jenkins:
I would think that they would rally to support a program of this nature, given that in other parts of the county this type of program has resulted in increased achievement scores. Most of the schools that I visited along the Northeast coast line, the students are performing at the 90th to 95th percentile for their particular grade level, in all areas.

Holloway:
So why are we trying to reinvent a wheel here in North Carolina?

Jenkins:
I think North Carolina is being very cautious. I think also that a great deal of emphasis has never been focused on the African-American student in terms of trying to elevate test scores.

Holloway:
Well, how do your students at Latham Elementary School compare-I mean, is the curriculum there that much different, or do any of the teachers incorporate some of the concepts into their classes, or are you aware of that?

Fields:
Well, let me answer that in two ways. Sitting here, you know I'm an African-American male, so it's going to be a natural thing for some Afrocentric things to happen at Latham in terms of the culture and individual needs being met. So when you really get down to it, there's something Afrocentric going, even down to the discipline. The teachers, for the most part, have to get to know the kids, and that's in any school. In order for any kid or any parent to be successful, the teacher has got to know the kids. They have to know the culture. If they don't, then the performance is going to fall. We were proficient in terms of the reading and math on the end-of-course tests. Our scores in writing, they need a lot of improvement, but I think we'll be able to overcome a lot of that by just focusing and getting to know the kids.

But there's one other thing that was mentioned earlier. As an administrator, I have concerns about the cost of the program, to put the program in place. From the use and purchase of textbooks down to the technology-very expensive. And the initiative of Winston is supported by, in part school system, the coalition, and basically, that's it.

Holloway:
This coalition in Winston-Salem is a coalition of various community groups within the black community in Winston-Salem, who are in general support of this idea. Let me ask you, Ms. Jenkins, if one of our viewers were to just look in on your classroom, what would be going on different-I know there would be some visual things different, but what would be going on different in terms of the curriculum than they would at another elementary school in their own district?

Jenkins:
My children are seated according to tribes, and they all have information about the different tribes and select the tribe that they want to belong to because of that tribe's strengths and attributes. There is an advisor at each of the tribal sections, and there are four. You would find that the students readily help one another, are very supportive. You will find a lot of encouragement and praise, and "you can do it" or "I can help you," or "here, share this." Again, my peer advisors are the ones who come to school every day, have their homework, are generous, are kind, are kind-spirited people, and the children recognize that in their peers, and so they respect that and respond to directives given from the peer advisors. And the peer advisors do have a council meeting, and I discuss with them different aspects of behavior that would be appropriate for that particular tribe given who's in that tribe.

Holloway:
Let me clarify something before you move on, which we didn't say at the outset. This is an experimental program that is for three years, and you are now in your second year, and it's from kindergarten through the second grade.

Jenkins:
And we have a great deal of parent support, in that parents are always in the classroom. And the parents provide additional hands in terms of tutoring, helping pull together resource materials. The parents also pay out of pocket for additional textbooks and materials that the students need.

Holloway:
So, in terms of the content though, and consistent with the North Carolina standard course of study, you are following that, and the students are learning?

Jenkins:
Yes, I am following that and supplementing the standard course of study with a lot of African-American imagery and philosophy, and tying it into the child's current state of affairs, making it relevant to the child's life right now.

Holloway:
You want to respond to that, Mr. Fields? Because what she just described is not what you would see in most North Carolina classrooms, but yet she is incorporating the main curriculum.

Fields:
We're basically doing the same kind of thing with the exception of the African imagery, in terms of the standards course of study. And what's interesting, there was a conversation about stations, or tribes rather, we use stations in terms of our kids being collaborative and a way of working with each other and so forth. The imagery piece of it is lacking. But here again, my focus for right now is just getting through that A-B-C. The accountability situation.

Holloway:
And your kids will, that starts at the third grade level.

Fields:
Yes, three, four and five.

Holloway:
Right. Now, let me say, we talked about, earlier I talked about this, another fear of resegregation. There are probably, and I think in reading some of the articles back when you first started, even some of the black parents were concerned about it being resegregation, that the schools would be like it was when they grew up. How do you deal with that criticism there in your program?

Jenkins:
I invite the parents in, and of course they are required, really, to come in to the classroom and to share in the information and knowledge that's being shared. I also try to point out to the parents the benefits of having a program that emphasizes their particular culture. And those parents may have had a negative school experience, but their children-and they can tell from how their children are responding to the program-their children are not experiencing that kind of negativism. They come when they're sick, they don't want to miss school, they don't want to not have their homework. And it is a lot of responsibility of the parents, but they are beginning to see that the standards that are set, and I set very high standards for the students, that their child can achieve the high standards. So even though they might have been skeptical at the very beginning, they are amazed and become very, very much more supportive once they see the success, and also the child's happiness and self-confidence increase.

Holloway:
And all of this is over and above-I keep saying the standard course of study-so it can't be, I guess, but all bad . . . one of the criticisms of African-American parents is that we are not as involved in our children's education in terms of the general market. So it would seem that this would be a good thing. How are the parents as involved at your school, Mr. Fields?

Fields:
I'm going to answer that, and I'm going to put something to the last statement made by Ms. Jenkins. That is, we have to deal with an equity issue here, financial equity issue, and schools like Diggs as well as Latham-both schools are economically and socially disadvantaged in terms of the classification. And the parent participation in those schools and in the kinds of schools that we're at, at times will be kind of low, because people have to work and so forth. So that drives everything. If any of the programs that deal with Afrocentrism or multiculturalism are to be successful, we're going to have to go back to square one and deal with the equity issue first, in terms of money going into the schools, what the kids are reading, the quality of the teachers, the administrators, and so forth. We just can't exclude the equity piece here in terms of the program.

Holloway:
Well I tell you, when you speak of the bottom line which is economics, quite often that is the bottom line in whatever you're talking about. Bottom line is we've run completely out of time. Thank you all very much for coming, and we wish you the best of luck in Winston-Salem.

And we hope that you've been more enlightened on the pros and cons of the new approach to meeting the needs of black children in an elementary classroom setting. If you'd like more information about Afrocentric programs or if you have questions or comments about tonight's show, please contact us at the numbers on your screen now, and visit us on the World Wide Web at www.unctv.org/bif. Or send us e-mail at bif@unctv.org. Thank you very much for watching Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, you have a blessed evening and a good night. Thanks.

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