Holloway:
Tonight we'll talk to a well-known songwriter and recording artist, both nationally and locally. Luther Barnes is next on Black Issues Forum.

[MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm your host Jay Holloway. Tonight with us, as we said, we have Luther Barnes. He is a recording artist in the gospel music industry and also a songwriter from Rocky Mount. Welcome to Black Issues Forum, Luther.

Barnes:
Thank you, Jay, it's good to be here.

Holloway:
All right, nice to have you. You are from Rocky Mount and you started in this gospel music industry with your father, Reverend F.C. Barnes and have been into it for quite a long time. Tell us how it was, I guess, starting in this music industry with your father, who is also very well known.

Barnes:
Well, my father, Reverend F. C. Barnes, was a great asset to me and a great kick-off for me to get started because you have to have someone that knows you or help you out into the business to get started. He had a great song 'Rough Side of the Mountain' that everybody knows and it was a big name, big song. And so all I had to say was that was my father and they said, "hey, you must can sing or do something," and so people gave me a chance and I just kept knocking on doors and bugging folks and what have you and God has blessed me to be where I am today.

Holloway:
But you were prepared, right?

Barnes:
Oh, yes, I went to school, I studied music and all that.

Holloway:
In North Carolina.

Barnes:
Right, at St. Augustine, right here in Raleigh. And a great start for me, I had great mentors that I worked under a lot of people in the music business that helped me out and my record company has been with me sometime, for 15 years or so now, same record company, out of Atlanta, Georgia. I've just been blessed, I have two great groups that I record with, the Sunset Jubilaires, which are my uncles and cousins and also my choir, the Redbud Gospel Choir, which is from my home church in Rocky Mount. And I record with both and God has just been good to me.

Holloway:
Well, congratulations. You have a tremendous amount of success in the gospel music industry. Gospel music, now, in the black community and Christian music in general is becoming more and more popular. Why do you think that is the case?

Barnes:
Well, I think it is because of our persistence, for one thing. Because we are just making an effort to get the music out to the masses. We've taken on as something that we just have to get over to the people, and not just hide our music back in the corner. And people are accepting it a lot more. We have great people like John Kee and people like that that have done some great things and crossover type things, the Wynans and people like that have went ahead to really make some big breaks for us, you might say. And we are just following along and taking the music everywhere. People are accepting it and it is doing very well.

Holloway:
Also I guess, the radio industry is helping that out, it is being played more and more on radio stations as well.

Barnes:
Yes, in fact, we have more radio play now than we have ever had. Radio stations are, there are all-gospel stations all over the country and most radio stations have segments of gospel music. Television, media as far as newspaper and magazines, so the word is getting out and the music just stands for itself and has a great message in the music and people all over the world needs the message that gospel has in it. Whether you like gospel or church or whatever, everybody needs hope, everybody is going through things and the music addresses those kinds of things. So it is real testimonial to everybody.

Holloway:
You mentioned John P. Kee a few minutes ago, who is also a national recording artist, from Durham but lives in Charlotte now, and also Shirley Caesar is another name that many North Carolinians know who is from here but is a gospel artist. Both of them have also made the transition, or in addition to has become the pastor of a local church. How do you see that, first of all, as artists making that transition, and how does that affect you personally.

Barnes:
I think it is great simply because they are sticking to their roots of what gospel is all about. It is about the word of Christ, the word of the Lord and you can't separate the two, really. If you are a gospel singer you have to be a minister because you are ministering to people through your music. And if you happen to be preacher, I would think that preaching is your first calling. So, whether you are singing or whatever, you have to go back to the church and so I really honor them for what they are doing, making a stand. Because sometimes being in the limelight with music can lead you out, make you feel like you don't need the church or what have you, that kind of thing. But to go back and to say the church is my foundation here, I really admire them for that.

Holloway:
So as a minister of music, of whom you are, do you also see that, you mentioned that people need that hope and need that energy and you do that through the music. We have so many social issues going on in today's society. How do you think your music, by you ministering to people through music, helps them deal with these tough social issues.

Barnes:
Well, you have to speak for the masses. My songs speak mostly from a personal experience. But also I find that people can grasp what I'm saying personally and take it for what they are going through. And sometimes it amazes me it is just, people will tell me "hey, you wrote that song just for me," and really I wrote it for me, but I'm glad you can identify with it. And so as far as the issues are concerned, we have the homeless, we have people that are struggling, we have the motherless people that don't have parents. Then we have the single folks that are trying to make it in the world, and the songs can apply to every asset of all kinds of people, it is just something that we always try to instill in our songs is a message of hope for the world.

Holloway:
Do you think or should I ask, what is your opinion on the Christian Church, I guess historically, over the last couple of years, not being as involved with these social issues and leaving it to the government to handle.

Barnes:
That is a shame, if I say so, just like it is. It is something we have to get more involved in. We've allowed ourselves to be taken out of the schools and situations and that kind of thing where we need to be at the forefront. I certainly hope and pray that as Christians, as leaders of the world, as far as Christians are concerned, that we can get more involved politically and socially in all the things that are going on in the world.

Holloway:
Now you, prior to becoming a recording artist in the gospel community, were a public school teacher. And so you were involved on that level. You want to talk about your experience in North Carolina education?

Barnes:
Yes, a wonderful experience. I enjoyed it. It was something that I always wanted to do and I wouldn't have been satisfied had I not gone through that level. Being that I have a public school education degree and I wanted to work in the school system and my former high school that I graduated from and people that I knew. I just wanted to be part of that community function type thing, taught elementary as well as intermediate grades and high school as well. And I really enjoyed the experience. I left it because my music, trying to travel, I couldn't just travel everywhere and then get back in the classroom on Mondays, I had to leave out on Fridays and sometimes be gone sometimes through the week. So, I had to make a choice. But I'm very concerned with our school system. I work with them a lot, I go back and do seminars, Black History Month things, American Education Week. I also work with a young choir in area called the Martin Luther King on the Rise Youth Choir in Rocky Mount, where a lot of the high school kids, or they are just the adolescents are there. So, I'm very much in touch with community function, very concerned, very concerned.

Holloway:
You were fortunate enough to be able to move on to a career that you really love now, which I guess you are in music and education. So, you were able to benefit from your degree as well as move on now and make money in that area. But our North Carolina Public Schools don't have the benefit of attracting and keeping people like you, that have a degree in education, especially black males. Why do you think we have that problem?

Barnes:
Well, I don't know if I'm all that valuable as far as that is concerned. I can see that and when I was teaching, the little difference when a male walked in the room and tried to get discipline and that kind of thing, as to some of our sisters or what have you having a little problems and like, gosh, you know, and I don't know, I think it is the kind of thing where it is a macho thing. Maybe we feel like that is more for women to be in that field. Maybe it is the money. That was my thing, I just wasn't making enough money to do what I needed to do. I could go out on one weekend and make more than I could make a whole month teaching. So, it is a shame there, and I think it is better now, since I've left, there's been over 12 years since I've stopped teaching, I think it is a lot better now. So, there are some of the things, I just hope and pray that we can get better, because our kids are needing a male role model in the classroom, more now than ever.

Holloway:
Do you see that in Rocky Mount that your music and as a musician and still staying in your home town, does that inspire some of the kids. Have you noticed that you've been a role model to some of them?

Barnes:
I would hope so. I've stressed the fact that you don't have to go to L.A. or Detroit, New York or what have you to make it in music. I had some friends who tried to encourage me to do so, said that I wouldn't make it in North Carolina and nobody is here that can hear you or do whatever. But God is able, He can do all things, and He has proven to me who He is and what He can do. And I just want to be a personal, live testimony to people what God can do. But you have to hang in there, you have to be persistent and know who you are and don't be intimidated by what other folks are doing in the other fields of music and do what you can do. And God will bless you.

Holloway:
So, you are saying that you did that and are continuing to do that in your home town, where you came back to Rocky Mount, and others can do that no matter where they live in North Carolina.

Barnes:
Exactly. North Carolina is a great place to live. I have traveled all over. Just left Los Vegas this week and enjoyed that. But there is nothing like North Carolina. North Carolina is home for me and always will be. And I love the people here and I just want so much for our area, and when it comes to gospel music, we have some of the best singers and musicians and groups and all in this area. And one of my goals is to help promote music in this area, to help groups, soloists and musicians to better themselves and believe in themselves what they can do.

Holloway:
Let's talk about our state North Carolina. You just gave it a great accolade. Tell me what it was like growing up, I assume, in the sixties or so here in North Carolina, particularly in Rocky Mount.

Barnes:
Well, Rocky Mount, as you know, is not a great big city. It is not the smallest of cities in North Carolina, but it is not the biggest. It is a great place. I like it because it is sort of in between the south and the north, as far as going, if you want to go to Washington, D.C., if you want to go south, south of the border on down, it is a sort of in between area. It is the biggest city east of Raleigh. I love the area. Great people there. Sort of rural. When I grew up I chopped peanuts and all that kind of stuff, picked cotton and tobacco and all this kind of stuff and I praise God for it because it set the tone for me to appreciate some of the better things that are happening with me now. Sometimes my heart goes out for our young people now because a lot of the things that I was brought up with they don't know anything about that, so it is hard for them to appreciate certain things. It took me a long time to even get a public job. It took some of the bigger things that are happening now to work at a McDonald's, whatever you can do to ___ yourself. And North Carolina has provided a lifestyle for me, an appreciation for life and to know who I am and to be able to deal with anybody in the whole world. Wherever I go, I can take North Carolina with me and be proud of it.

Holloway:
We are approaching a new millennium, a new century, the year 2000 and our president, current President of the United States Bill Clinton, our current governor from eastern North Carolina, I think he's from Wilson, Governor Hunt, are both talking about racial reconciliation and improving race relations. How do you look at that as a North Carolinian, this great state of North Carolina, growing up in the civil rights era in Rocky Mount, how do you view race relations then versus now.

Barnes:
Well, we've made great strides, first of all. I think we have no problems working together, associating with each other. I'm a very positive minded person. But on the other hand, just when you think things are getting better, something breaks out over here and shows you, hey, we still have a long ways to go. There is still a great division there. But personally I have great friends that, I just love all races of people and everybody deserves a chance. When it comes to our black people, you know, hey, we have all the opportunities that we've ever had in our lives and a lot of our problems are not because of the other race, but our own selves, so we need to tighten up our own selves, our own attitudes, our own conversation, our own way of thinking. Then we can get along with anybody.

Holloway:
What are some examples, if you don't mind sharing some of the attitudes.

Barnes:
Well, I don't want to get too deep and too personal, but just basically, dress codes and the way of talking, education and attitude. A lot of times the attitude is the first thing that gets in our way, just a bad attitude. Self esteem, you know, believing in yourself that you can do. And people will give you a chance if you present yourself in the right way, prepare yourself. I think the barriers are nowhere as great as they were in the past. So, if we challenge our own selves, get our own selves together, we can do anything.

Holloway:
People say that the economy or the economic situations is one of the bottom lines in terms of the haves and have-nots. And quite often many African Americans fall disproportionately in that have-not situation. What do you say to that?

Barnes:
I say that is something to consider. But to me, mostly it is a cop-out, more than anything else. I think if you try hard, I don't care where you come from, we have so many examples of people that have come from the very, very bottom, under the bottom and have raised themselves to the top and they've done some great things, out of some very dismal situations. So to me that economic thing, it is there and it is to be considered. But to me it is a cop-out. You can do something. You don't have to just stand on the street. You can rake somebody's leaves or something, there is something you can do to make some money and better yourself. That is just me personally.

Holloway:
Do you think that why we have this problem with our youth today is maybe perhaps because the parents have not taken more control with some of these issues you are talking about, to instill...

Barnes:
I believe so. And I think maybe we've been overly blessed. We were too good to our children. We give them everything, they don't have to work for anything. I mean, $200 pair of sneakers and stuff like that, and hey, just for the asking. And no manners, barely say a thank you. And so those kinds of values you have to instill in them and also teach them the value of working for what you get, earning what you get. And saying I love you. You know, sometimes we have a problem with showing love to each other, we think that is soft type thing, or whatever, we've been taught to be so macho and all this kind of stuff and we can't tell our kids or our families, our wives, whatever, that we love them and show it, put it in action. And I think our kids will learn that as they come up too.

Holloway:
By example.

Barnes:
Exactly.

Holloway:
Let's return to the gospel music and relate to that issue, do you think because much of the gospel music now has become much more contemporary in terms of the music and the styles of playing, that it is appealing more to youth and so some of these issues that you are talking about can better relate, outside of the parental situation, that you can utilize your music to help some of these things?

Barnes:
Yes, yes. Gospel music, now, is getting to be more than just saying God is good, com on hallelujah, praise the Lord. That is great, but then there are some other intricate situations that we can deal with in our music. Tell people how to deal with certain issues and things of that sort. And I think the Curt Franklins and people like that that are doing a great job in trying to give our kids something to hold on to, not just lose it all and forget and just trip out. But come on back in, you can praise the Lord along with the things you are dealing with. You can keep God in your life and you don't have to be a nerd or whatever. You can have it going on and Jesus can be in there too. So I think our music is answering to those kinds of situations.

Holloway:
There was a third area you mentioned in terms of issues was the homeless, and actually, that was the first one you mentioned. Can your music still be of hope to the homeless. And we talked about the economic situation, education and race relations, but you know, the homeless have to overcome all of that.

Barnes:
Yes, that is basically what it is all about. The fact that Jesus, his life, much of his ministry was to the homeless. He sort of shunned those that had and those that were in high places and what have you and He got right down on his knees right among those that other folks shunned, that they didn't want to be around. So, we have to address that with our music. But by the grace of God, all of us would be homeless or be without or wherever. So we are not all that, I mean, like, we got it going on. In fact, most people live just a month or two before being in poverty. I mean, hey, you miss your paycheck a couple of times and you are going to be homeless, you know what I'm saying. So we all...

Holloway:
Will you be the host next week if that happens?

Barnes:
We're all right at it, so, hey, we can't go to far there, because we are holding onto our jobs and we are having house payments and homes and working just as hard as we can and one little high wind blow and we'll be right out there with them. So, we have to be concerned and be considerate to that and don't think of ourselves as better or whatever. We are all in this together.

Holloway:
We have just five minutes left. Is there something really dear to you that you would like to say to North Carolinians across the state.

Barnes:
Well, I want to say thanks. Thanks to you personally for inviting me on the show here. And I don't feel worthy of that, whatever, I just thank God and I thank my people, my family, my office staff back home and everybody that works with me, my singers, my group, musicians, record company, everybody that helped me to be where I am today. I'm not all that great a singer. I do a little something. I'm a better writer than I am a singer, I believe. But I just thank God for the avenues that he has given me, for the mediums he has given me to work and to call North Carolina home and I am just elated for that.

Holloway:
Not on a bad note, but I want to also show my appreciation, our appreciation to you for coming, which happened this week, we are taping this week because you lost your mother this week. And I know that she had to be dear to you and that is where you got your start, with your parents.

Barnes:
Very much so. You don't want me to start crying on this show, do you? But anyway, yes, she was very, very dear, but she has a very special place in my heart and helped to bring me where I am. She was a very soft spoken woman, but very powerful, and a lot of her words, things she said to me I have to live up to that, I have to hold on to that because I know she is still watching me. She is still like "all right, now...," you know. And she is there and she will always be there with me.

Holloway:
In terms of these family values, we've talked about a lot of these issues and a lot of what I guess that you've gotten, what you've become today and you've kind of acknowledged, is probably because of your upbringing and your parents. They have been with you up through this time.

Barnes:
I would not be where I am had it not been for my parents. My father, talked with him this morning, he is very upbeat and very encouraging. And my whole family as a whole, my uncles and brothers and everybody, I just thank God for that. I know everybody doesn't have that unit, maybe, like I have, very supportive and all. But I just give them a lot of credit for where I am and who I am.

Holloway:
That is another reason why you chose to stay in North Carolina, particularly Rocky Mount.

Barnes:
Exactly. And I feel that I owe them something, now that I am where I am. I can't just say, oh, I don't need you no more, I'm out of here. I want to bring them up as I go up. And I just love them. I like being around them and, you know, we try to be lights for the community, to people that are looking on us and our church and what have you and do the best we can and try to help someone.

Holloway:
A lot of times we look at the next generation, you have a family, wife and kids. What do you see for your kids?

Barnes:
Well, I have one daughter, Benita, and she is doing very well. And lot of times I look to her like, gosh, she's got better faith and is stronger than I am, in a lot of ways. And so I can sort of pat myself on the back, might say that I did a fine job. I don't have a son, but I do have a daughter and she is doing very well. And I have a lot of extended family, people all over that look to me in certain ways and all, and I just want to help them out all I can. They need a lot of help, they need a lot of support and encouragement, because our future is bright in certain ways, and it is sort of dismal in other ways. So we wish for them the very best.

Holloway:
So, when you focus in on that gospel music, what you write and perform and record so well, you can focus on that positive and it fits with your personality without focusing on the dismal and the negative.

Barnes:
That's right. It is all there, but you have to show people that there is hope and that you can make it and that you are blessed. No matter how dismal it is, you can always look at somebody else's situation is a lot worse than you, so you be thankful for where you are and who you are. So, we can't be too critical because we are blessed people.

Holloway:
Well, we certainly were blessed to have you this evening and we thank you for making the travel across 95 to talk with citizens of North Carolina and sharing with us the many issues that are close to your heart. And allowing us to see another side of recording artist and songwriter.

Barnes:
It's been my pleasure. Thank you so much and God bless.

Holloway:
Luther Barnes tonight on Black Issues Forum, a popular recording artist, songwriter, musician, gospel musician, Rocky Mount native. We certainly thank you for watching Black Issues Forum. If you have comments or questions, we encourage you to give us a call at 549-7167, fax us at 549-7168, both in area code 919. Write us at the address on your screen. Or visit us on the World Wide Web at WWW.unctv/bif or send us e-mail at bif@unctv.org. I'm Jay Holloway, thank you so very much for watching Black Issues Forum again. You have a pleasant good evening and a blessed one. Good night.