Holloway:
There are issues, both pro and con, about Affirmative Action and you'll hear what our youth have to say about that next on Black Issues Forum. [MUSIC] Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host. This evening, we're talking about Affirmative Action. Of course, you've heard a lot about Affirmative Action around the country and in North Carolina, both pro and con. Well, tonight, we have two gentlemen in the studio to talk about that, both from the pro point of view and the con point of view. From the pro point of view, tonight, we have Cash Michaels. He's Managing Editor of The Carolinian newspaper which is based in Raleigh, North Carolina. Cash, thank you for being here. Michaels: My pleasure, Jay.

Holloway:
Also, we have Don Carrington, who is with the John Locke Foundation, and Don, thank you so much for being with us tonight.

Carrington:
Thank you for having me.

Holloway:
What's your position with the Foundation?

Carrington:
I'm Vice President of the Foundation. We have a staff of eight.

Holloway:
All right. The reason we actually have both of you, gentlemen, here is you happen to both be coaches of some high school students that were from Wake County and it was around the Martin Luther King holiday when they debated the issues of Affirmative Action and both of you all were informed in coaching these teams from both points of view. That debate dealt with education and the workplace and we'll be dealing with that and we'll see some of the highlights which those students talked about shortly. But in that debate they also opened up with comments about really defining Affirmative Action and what I'd like to do is to hear from coaches and hear from you, first, some of your opening statements in terms of how we define Affirmative Action because in many instances it has been confused with the quotas and a lot of these keys words get in the way of what Affirmative Action is really about. Let's start first with you, Don. How do you define Affirmative Action?

Carrington:
Well, Affirmative Action was originally set up as making sure that we had a level playing field and there were no barriers. That's what a lot of people thought and right now from the Locke Foundation we would be (inaudible) for taking affirmative steps to help people that have had a hard time getting started in life whatever their color may be but we would generally be against quotas, preferences and set asides, hiring, university admissions or contracting. So, we're for affirmative steps like improving public education for everyone. So, everyone really has their own definition and we just have to deal with each issue whether we call it equal opportunity or Affirmative Action on a case-by-case basis.

Holloway:
So, taking affirmative action to improve but not quotas.

Carrington:
Correct.

Holloway:
Cash, what would you say? Michaels: Well, Mr. Carrington, I would suggest that it's to help people who have had a hard time getting started in life. I would suggest to you that if, indeed, if we likened this to a race, many of these people, historically, have been tied down and shackled at the starting line, never allowed to actually to start off, and that's exactly what Affirmative Action was created legally to address. The fact that we have an historical legacy in this country of injustice, institutional injustice, people of color, women, people of disabilities, and Affirmative Action addresses only those institutions that have that history. That's the one thing that folks seem to forget about when we discuss this issue. If your bank, if your school, if your institution of higher education has a history of discrimination, then it's to address that history and to redress those problems. If you have, indeed, being doing exactly what the Constitution of these United States have been calling for, equal justice under the law, all men and women are created equal and they're treated as such, then you don't have a problem. Affirmative Action does not address results. It addresses opportunity and we're in a country of opportunity and everyone deserves a fair chance to fail.

Carrington:
I would disagree with some of what Cash said because they still have quota programs that are...the City of Raleigh still maintains one, State government has them throughout the State government. There are goals and targets of hiring by race and sex. They still persist. Michaels: Quotas are legal designations by the courts. I think those who are proponents of Affirmative Action would tell you, if they were here, that they do not back quotas. We have goals. They are a number that you try to reach but there is no legal authority that you actually have to reach those numbers. Those are not quotas.

Holloway:
Well, let's take a look right now and hear what the young people had to say in that debate about that and the first question we asked them was "How was Affirmative Action being implemented in the workplace and what are its effects on the young generation?" Let's hear what they had to say. [Video] Female: Affirmative Action is a program where you first have got to be qualified. That is the primary source for getting a job. You must meet the qualifications. This secondary source is based on race or sex, what have you, to make sure that the workplace is diversified. As the Executive Order specified, that we need to work toward diversify in our work force and in our places of higher education; therefore, we have secondary sources to look at factors such as sex and other issues to help diversify the workplace so that other people can come and have the chance and get the opportunities that are willing to take and that they very well deserve. Female: Now, Affirmative Action does give minorities a foot in the door but many times the door is shut in our faces. Not only is it shut, sometimes it hits us. Affirmative Action was implemented to help us but now it has become reverse discrimination, meaning that if two people go for the same job and they are of equal qualifications, the minority will be picked. I feel that I would rather go for a job against another person of different race for the same job and be picked due to my qualifications, not to fulfill an Affirmative Action clause. [End of Video]

Holloway:
Well, what do you have to say about that? Those are some of the highlights of some of the comments about Affirmative Action's effect on the workplace right now and how it's affecting some of the young folks. These students were coached by you and some of your colleagues. What are your comments now in terms of what they said about that? Michaels: Well, Jay, let me say first of all, we'd be remiss if Mr. Carrington and I didn't do this. We're very proud of all of those students, number one, both pro and con. They all worked very hard, I'm sure you'd agree. They represented their positions well, whether they agreed with the positions or not personally, and we were very proud of all of them that evening. Having said that, in terms of what Ms. Finch had said, who I believe is from Enloe High School, she is exactly correct. Affirmative Action is about finding qualified people in the pool of the community, as it were, so that they have the same opportunity as their white counterparts for the same positions. It does not guarantee that they're going to get the job. It doesn't guarantee that they're going to keep the job. They have to work, obviously, to do those things. The other young lady...and I apologize...I forget...

Holloway:
Tiffany, I believe. Michaels: No, no. The other one was Tiffany as well...who was on screen? She indicated that it was reverse discrimination and, yet, I don' see how. This country was built on preferences. We still operate by preferences and I feel, at times, those on the conservative right throw up a red herring when they talk about we must eliminate racial preferences and then they totally forget about addressing the other preferences or the oil that runs this machine we call America.

Carrington:
Am I on the conservative right? Michaels: You look like it. (Laughter)

Carrington:
Okay, I'll be for today if you want me to be, Cash. One key point there was the first young lady said you had to be qualified and she didn't say most qualified. That's a key point. The State government is still going through this right now. They have just decided only last year that they would try to hire the most qualified person. This setting a qualification threshold fairly low, which allows you play all kinds of games with political hirings, all kinds of things, has been wrong but I think if you're hiring someone, you should strive to hire the most qualified from the pool of applicants that are sitting in front of you. Michaels: Well, you know, Jay, this game of most qualified is a recent rhetorical tool on the part of those who are against Affirmative Action. Historically speaking, even within the white community, you had something called nepotism, where, indeed, the most qualified were not hired. They were the sons, the daughters, the nieces, the nephews of whoever was working at a particular business or institution and, indeed, other white would were more qualified to get those positions found themselves locked up because they were not...locked out, I should say...because they were not related by blood. So, now, when we bring race into the situation, all of a sudden everyone's concerned about finding the most qualified. We know of situations in State government and, remind you, I agree with Mr. Carrington. There's a lot of political nonsense that goes on in State government in terms of hiring and what have you. Jobs are used as currency and we certainly oppose that as well. I want to make that very clear and the John Locke Foundation has done an excellent job of addressing those things. We've found situations, though, where you may have two people - one African-American, one white - who have the exact same qualifications and, yet, because the black applicant attended Shaw University or Saint Augustine's College or NCCU or Fayetteville State University and the white applicant attended maybe UNC at Chapel Hill or NC State or any of the other prestigious white universities, guess who has the edge depending on who is making that final decision and, yet, they're both qualified? I ask Mr. Carrington, does he oppose that kind of Affirmative Action that's tilted towards someone who is perceived to have attended a better institution?

Holloway:
Let's hold his response because I think one of your students has addressed that and the next question was "What is Affirmative Action's effect in the overall workplace environment?" and here is what the students had to say regarding that question. [Video] Male: We feel that companies should hire who is better qualified for the position. If he may be black, white, Spanish, whatever, they should hire the person they feel is more qualified for the position and that will do the job the best and more efficient. Male: Affirmative Action has not only helped minorities in the workplace, it's also helped whites. It requires companies to post a list of job openings and it's helped stop nepotism, which is when relatives would get hired for jobs just because they're relatives, and often you wouldn't even know there was a job opening because they wouldn't even post it and that's how it's helped whites. Female: The stated goal of Affirmative Action is unassailable but the way Affirmative Action is practiced today is only increasing racial animosity in the workplace and also in the university admissions. In a 1995 poll for The News & Observer of Raleigh, 41% of whites and 40% of blacks say their race relations are getting worse rather than better. Racial preferences also (inaudible) the most disadvantaged minorities for hiring and higher education preferences are irrelevant. Female: I'd just like to say something about statistics. There's such a thing called response bias. When you look at The News & Observer poll, you have to look at the pool of people they interviewed, who was available to interview. This was not a professional interview, this was not done over a certain period of time, and they did not have a control group, so, therefore, you cannot use a certain News & Observer small scale poll to define the whole world. [End of Video]

Holloway:
Well, you want to respond to that now , Don? We cut you off.

Carrington:
Okay. Where were we? I got thrown off by her last answer in the poll. I'm not sure which poll she was addressing anyway.

Holloway:
Well, I think she was talking about a News and Observer poll that surveyed that race relations were not as good and it was based on a survey done in, I guess, the Triangle area and I think what Tiffany was talking about is that you can't extrapolate that and apply it to even the State or the total universe. And I think one of the things that you've talked to me about off camera is the whole basis of numbers from census data that makes the whole system flawed that you believe and this might be a good time to address that.

Carrington:
Right. For those that really want to understand hiring by the numbers, whether you like it or not, it's important for them to go back and think where the numbers came from when there's a target, a goal, a quota, whatever you want to call it. That is based on census data collected once every ten years, one out of six households are surveyed, you declare your own occupation, your own race. That data, the ratios are set basically once every ten years and you're to compare your workplace, the labor force in a county or labor market area, and there's tremendous flaws with that system, and I think, in the long run, it actually hurts opportunities for minorities because it throws a number out there that is probably very fair from the truth to begin with and holds it out there as a goal for ten years. I think it's horrible. I used to work with that data and when I realized what was going on, I was appalled and gave a few talks around the area about how bad it was.

Holloway:
Can I ask you if the census data is flawed and is the whole basis for Affirmative Action goals flawed, too? Michaels: Well, I'll tell you what. I'm all for fixing that which is broken and, so, indeed, if there a flaws in coming up with that data and that information, then let's get the proper information. I go by experiences, though, and I think that being a journalist I've spoken to enough African-Americans from all walks of life, who have had years of experience in the workplace, who all basically tell the same story that no matter how hard they try, no matter how hard they work to achieve the American Dream, they are not considered equal as their white counterparts. Indeed, they find themselves having to wake up twice as early and work three times as hard just to attain some of the same goals that their white counterparts do. So, yeah, let's fix those numbers but let's also listen to the experiences of those who have done their best to play by the rules, so to speak, have tried to earn their position through merit and find that in this society sometimes even merit is not enough for equal opportunity.

Holloway:
Well, is there some validity to having a system because Don says that his Foundation and (inaudible) conservative and you said, "Far right." It's saying, "Okay, we're interested in Affirmative Action and doing something about it but not the quotas." If we are really talking about numbers based on the census data, is there then some logic for disagreeing with the current Affirmative Action system? Michaels: Well, as I indicated before, if we're going to be dealing solely with numbers by virtue of census data, then we need to determine what's true and what's not, but let's take this a piece at a time. What are the numbers here at public television? Is there equal opportunity here at public television? Is there equal opportunity at The Carolinian newspaper? At the John Locke Foundation? Let's forget about the census and let's deal with it block by block, so to speak, and see where equal opportunity exists and where it doesn't and where it doesn't let's address it that way.

Holloway:
You have a comment?

Carrington:
Yeah, I think it's worth taking some rough glance of the workforce and if you see and if it's of any particular size and there happens to be no women or no blacks in there, there's certainly reason to wonder why and there may be lots of reasons that have nothing to do with discrimination, that a particular field doesn't attract women or doesn't attract blacks. It's worth a rough look at but the precise hiring by the numbers at the occupational level is (inaudible) census data which has been a big joke. It really has and I don't dispute that people haven't been discriminated against in the workplace for all kinds of reasons. I'm sure. This happened to me a lot of times just because of who I am and that's bad but over the long run I think most people in business can't afford to discriminate in hiring or with their customers, that they won't do well in the long run. In the past, I know it's been a problem lots of places but I'm optimistic about it. I really am. Michaels: Well, unfortunately, the back log of cases at the EEOC...I think well over 60,000...would suggest that it is a clear and present danger that we have as of yet to even address. The President has just outlined in his budget some $86 million in addition to what the current budget is to clearing up this mess and back log in our nation and, so, I would suggest that while we don't know what the exact numbers are for the census, we do know what the exact numbers are as far as the complaints are concerned and we need to address those accordingly.

Holloway:
We don't have a whole lot of time but what I'd like to do now is move into the educational environment. We have another question that the students responded to and I guess when you think about education, the gentleman, Connolly, from California, who really promoted Proposition 209...Ward Connolly...will certainly be a topic for this discussion, but we asked the students how colleges and universities suffer or benefit from Affirmative Action and here's what they had to say. [Video] Male: Many colleges, especially in the California system, they do have quotas and set asides and many of these practices are unfair because, in some instances, many minorities are given perhaps 300 points and the (inaudible) can be only a few points and sometimes a person who does have like higher grades, GPA, or SAT are not admitted because in many cases SATs are placed in groups and they take the group SAT scores and the higher the score...they take an average for each race and if one minority scores the same score as another minority...if that group score is higher, it won't show up. Female: In response to SAT scores, SAT scores are not the only admitting factors. They also look at grades and other extra-curricular activities. So, saying the SAT scores that are group SAT scores from minorities are giving them an extra push is not necessarily true. Male: A recent study in 1996 by Time Magazine and Newsweek says that blacks who are admitted to institutions of higher learning perform just as well as whites. So, it should not be a factor of trying to make a quote of admissions. It's all about how you're going to do when you get there and the statistics show that blacks did just as well as whites did once they were admitted. Female: Why is it okay for black universities to change their...to have Affirmative Action to get whites in and other people into the historically black universities but when stated-funded schools which happen to be historically white universities do that to get blacks in there's a problem? [End of Video]

Holloway:
Don, you want to respond to that last comment she made here about the differences there?

Carrington:
In having Affirmative Action at the historically black schools for whites but not the others?

Holloway:
Right.

Carrington:
Well, I think we ought to strive to make all our State schools...I can't speak for the private ones...but all the State schools to have a good education...that a degree from East Carolina, UNC-Greensboro, any of the schools...Pembroke, UNC-P...be all very good. The outreach programs at the historically black schools, I wouldn't think they would need to do that. If you're white and you live nearby or want to attend that school, you should be able to go. You shouldn't need a program.

Holloway:
(Inaudible) Michaels: Jay, I think it's very simple. Race is not supposed to be either the predominant factor or the only factor. It should be one of many factors in choosing students to go to school. Other factors, as well, "Indeed, are they the kind of material that we want in school?" But also we need to address other preferences, too. If you're an out-of-state student, you pay more money than if you're an in-state student. If you're an athlete, if you're a relative of an alumnus...come on...preferences are the law of the land, not just racial preferences.

Holloway:
Well, let's talk...the last segment we talked to the students and we asked them about Affirmative Action's effect on the college admissions process. [Video] Female: I think that it could stir up racial animosity among the students because if an African-America student...excuse me, if a Caucasian student applies to the same schools African-Americans do and the Caucasian student scores very well SAT, great extra curricular activities, you know, just perfect for the school or whatever, and the African-American student maybe did not score as well or maybe doesn't have as many extra curricular activities and might get into the school over the Caucasian student and I think that might start racial animosity because I think the Caucasian student would probably be upset because they didn't get in, they were more qualified to get into the school. Female: As far as racial animosity because of Affirmative Action, if you can't get along with somebody in college or a place of higher education, then you won't be able to get along with them in the real world. So, if you have racial animosity, it's from home. It's not because of the schooling or who you're around because black people and all ethnic...we are not going to go away. So, we have to learn to live together and work together. As far as SAT and GPA, I could say that that's discrimination because "Well, she got in because her GPA is higher than mine. Give me a chance. Let me prove myself." Male: The young lady stated that they ought to have a chance. Your chance is when you start high school. You start in ninth grade and go to twelfth grade. You have a white student and you have a black student. Both of the students...it depends on how hard they're going to work. If the white student is going to work harder than the black student, then the white student has a little bit more opportunity than the black student and if the black student is going to work harder than the white student, the black student should have more opportunity than the white student. It matters about how you start when you start in your ninth grade...actually when you start in kindergarten...how you do is about where you're going to go. If two students of different races...it does not matter...it depends on who works the hardest, who wants to be...who knows what they want to be and how hard they're going to work is where they're going to go. Female: You automatically assume we're talking about Affirmative Action differences or racial influences. Let us not forget about athletes who are accepted to universities a lot of times when in their places someone with a better academic standing could be admitted but these athletes are also accepted to diversify the school. Also, differences with in-state and out-of-state students. Why must out-of-state students pay a higher tuition fee and in-state students get a low one? And, also, nepotism in schools...relatives of alumni who are accepted over people that do not have relatives at that school. [End of Video]

Holloway:
Well, we really want to thank these high school students for doing a great job, as I mentioned earlier, on debating the pro and con issues. We only have a few moments left. Don, do you want to make some concluding comments?

Carrington:
Well, again, working with the students was great and when we were over at my house, I think they understood very well. I had my son, 14-year-old, in the room when we were studying. We talked about "If you get extra help in getting into admissions and you knock him out, how are you going to feel about it?" They all concluded that there is a down side for preferential treatment in admissions, and I think that's wrong and I think most of us do.

Holloway:
Cash? Michaels: Jay, if conservatives had joined the Civil Rights struggle early on and fought for equal rights, we wouldn't be in the mess we're in right now. This struggle continues, the battle lines are drawn, we're going to fight for Affirmative Action.

Holloway:
Well, thank you so much. I really appreciate both of you all being on the program today and coaching those kids and as we continue in the discussion of Affirmative Action, we appreciate your viewpoints. I want to thank you for watching tonight's Black Issues Forum and hopefully you have been encouraged to think differently about your position on Affirmative Action, whether it's pro or con. Engage yourself in your community. If you would like to know more information about this topic, please contact us. Our phone number and fax number is listed on the screen or write us at the address on your screen. Also, you can contact us on the World Wide Web at www.unctv.org/bif or e-mail us at that address. I'm Jay Holloway. Thank you so very much for tuning into Black Issues Forum. You have a blessed evening and good night. [MUSIC] Black Issues Form - Episode 1224 - Affirmative Action