Holloway:
...issues and the problems to resolve them, next on Black Issues Forum. [MUSIC] Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host, and tonight we're talking about a problem that's not just a problem in North Carolina but around the country and black children are in a special situation, in need of black adoptive parents and foster parents, and tonight to talk about that we have two guests who can really talk about that from personal experience and from professional experience. Let me first introduce to you Esther High. She's the Special Needs Adoption Coordinator for the Division of Social Services in North Carolina. Thank you , Ms. High, for being with us. And also Theresa Morris-Brown. She's a former foster parent and now is an adoptive parent. Thank you also for being on the program, Ms. Brown. Let's jump right into real quickly, Ms. High, and tell us why are black children in this category of Special Needs and what is this all about?

High:
Okay, Special Needs...all black children are not necessarily in the category of Special Needs. Special Needs is that category that we have...the Federal government really has described...is those children who are difficult to get out of foster care system. So, if you have a black infant who is healthy, that child is not necessarily a Special Needs child and when a child is Special Needs, it means that whatever funds the child was getting as a foster child, those funds go to the adoptive parents until the child is 18 years of age. So, we have black children, we have white children, we have sibling groups, we have handicapped children. All of those children fit in that category of Special Needs.

Holloway:
So, in North Carolina and around the country, there are some disparity between the figures of black kids in the system and white kids in the system?

High:
Right, right.

Holloway:
Overall, in North Carolina, there are about how many black children in the system right now?

High:
Well, the numbers are probably about 1,700 to 1,800 of those children who are needing adoption where the plan is adoption but they haven't been legally cleared for adoption. Of those who are free for adoption, it's more like about 800, I think, at this point.

Holloway:
Now, is there is a figure that I had seen somewhere that probably in the thousands, though, that are just in need or in the system so to speak?

High:
In the United States, there are probably in the thousands of children. In North Carolina, it's about, I would think, 12,000 children in the system. Of those who are probably needing adoption, it's more like about 4,000 and that's black and white children. A disproportionate number of them, really, would be black children.

Brown:
And if you look at the children of color, of children in care, you're looking at approximately 60 to 65% of those children are children of color. Not just black children. We have Hispanic children, you've got Native American children; whereas, the population was only 23% of the total population in the state. So, I think that shows the truth disparity of the number of children of color in the system. While 60% versus 40% may not seem to be a lot, when you look at how many of us actually live in the state and how many of our children are in care, I think that's what makes a lot of us concerned.

Holloway:
Well, we do have a graphic that we got from the Department of Health and Human Services and, in particular, your division, Ms. High. We're taping this program in February of '98 and let's take a look at this first graphic that showed the number of kids still in foster care right now and I think this graphic will show, that we show on the screen now, that there are black children...at 54%, that's over 2,000 children right now, as of February 11th, still in foster care. White children, 39%, at 1,500. American Indian, 2%. Asian, just a little less than 1%. Hispanic, at 9%. So, we're talking about 4,000 children right now still in foster care. Would either of you like to comment on that?

High:
Let me just clarify something. I think those numbers are not quite the number of children in foster care. Those numbers are of children who are in the foster care system who are...the plan is adoption. Actually, there are more children in foster care. Many of the children would go home and be reunited with relatives or whatever. For these children, the plan is probably adoption. So, I think those figures were not quite what it is. The disparity is there, no question about it. Children come into the system for various reasons and one of the reasons is poverty. Unfortunately, another reason is substance abuse and many of these children cannot return home because the parents have such problems with substance abuse and we try to get them reunited with relatives but for many of the children the relatives are there any longer. So, it is a disparity in the numbers.

Holloway:
So, in North Carolina, according to that last graphic, there are over 4,000 children right now that the plan is adoption?

High:
The plan is adoption. They're not free for adoption. Many of them...except the other number I think we have later...because the rights of the parents haven't been terminated.

Holloway:
So, specifically, black children right now...there are about 2,200 of them in North Carolina that the plan is for adoption?

High:
Right.

Holloway:
So, pretty soon, you anticipate them being available and they're looking for adoptive parents or in this care are they looking for foster care or foster parents?

High:
Well, they're in foster homes, most of them are in foster homes already. We do need more foster homes but children are placed in foster homes and then they are placed in an adoptive home if the foster parents don't adopt them. Theresa, here, was a foster parent and fortunately for us many of the foster parents do adopt. So, for those children where foster parents aren't adopting, those are the ones who are needing adoptive parents.

Holloway:
Theresa, was that an issue for you, because of the disparity, for you to make a decision to be a foster parent rather than an adoptive parent?

Brown:
Actually, no. I was a single foster parent and I think in seeing some many of our youngsters in foster care...I mean, I have a daughter, who I call my daughter, who had been in the care from the age of seven until she aged-out and at no point in that time was she ever free for adoption, was the plan ever adoption. It was long-term foster care and I think what we had to start looking at was how these kids are categorized. Some of them are categorized as being free for adoption. Well, that's wonderful but we've also got an extremely large number of children, our kids, who are in care right now where the plan has not been determined, where, unfortunately, for them...and, again, you'll find out I end up speaking from the side of the child. Unfortunately, for the child, we keep giving the parent chance after chance after chance after chance and a year may be nothing to an adult but it could half or a third of a child's life. And if we keep saying, "Okay, well, the parent can go through another drug treatment plan," okay, fine, and that child stays in care and isn't listed in that 4,000 of children who are available for adoption. The decision to adopt was something I had always wanted to do. Luckily, when I married, I married a man who knew from the beginning that's what I wanted to do and the first thing we did was to go out and adopt a young black boy. As Esther said, a lot of children are considered Special Needs children because of the difficulty in placing them and, especially, young black men. And it bothers me when I hear people talk about how the young black men have no conscience and they kill. If no one cares for you and you grow up thinking that nobody cares for you, you don't learn to have a conscience. So, why don't we get these kids and put them in a home? That was why we specifically decided to look at black boys. I have just decided to go through the process again, now that our son has been with us for three years and is secure in the fact that he is home, we are mommy and daddy, and that he's not going anywhere. One thing I'd also like to clarify, too, is that it doesn't necessarily mean that the kid is young. My son was three years old. They asked him why didn't he smile and he told them that he would smile when he got a mommy and a daddy and at four he got a mommy and a daddy.

Holloway:
He smiles now.

Brown:
I can't stop him from smiling. (Laughter) I asked him how come he's so happy. He said, "I guess I was just born this way, Mommy." But there's a change in him. He's secure now, he knows, and I think that is really what we'd like to get across to the families out there is that the children are there and it's our responsibility. It's not theirs, it's not up to them. We have these fairs and we put them on display and the children feel as if they're almost like going to back to slavery or something where you pick the best ones out and if you don't get picked then something's wrong with you, and I think what people need to understand is that these are children and if we don't take care of the children now, then we'll take care of them later but in a way we would prefer not to.

Holloway:
You know, you had one of the biggest events in D.C. a few years ago. Louis Farrakhan had the Million Man March and he made the men pledge and that was one of the things they pledged...is to look at adoption because there are also, I think, as you stated...I want to ask Ms. High...is that consistent...is that also a disparity with black boys in the system?

High:
It is, it really is and many of our couples who come to us, and single parents, would say right off, "We want a girl." We remind them of the number of boys in the system that need homes. So, it is a problem but we're trying to address that problem. We have now in North Carolina, which has been real fortunate and Theresa went through that agency, another choice for black children, a black adoption agency and they just began that agency two years ago and in two years they have placed about 200 children out the foster care system. That really is phenomenal and a lot of those children are black boys. They stress the fact that we need homes for black boys.

Holloway:
Well, let's take a look at another graphic now because we have another graphic that talks about actually those number of kids that are legally free for adoption in the North Carolina and we have that graphic now. You see the total is about just under 800, 779, and 58% of those are black and I would guess...are the majority of those blacks young boys would you say or do you know?

High:
Probably is. We didn't break those down but I think we would probably have more boys than girls, yes.

Holloway:
And 38% are white and 295 American Indians, a little less than 1%...so are Asians and Hispanics at 2%, at 20 of those, and that's as of February 1998, when we taped this program. So, those are the number of kids that are right now ready for an adoptive parent in North Carolina. Now that we have that up, what can a parent do right now? If they're watching this program and are moved already, what should they do right away if they are ready for adoption?

High:
Well, they can do several things. They can call their local Department of Social Services if they choose to work with a public agency or they can call one of the private agencies in the state. Unfortunately, I don't have those numbers but one is Another Choice for Black Children, I just mentioned that, Children's Home Society. Most of them are listed in the yellow pages of a telephone directory. Another one is...well, this is in the western part of the state...Adoption Plus. These are agencies that the division has contracted with to find homes for children in the system but usually the parents can call the local Department of Social Services and if the local Department of Social Services says, "We can't work with you at this point because we don't have available staff or whatever," they will advice them to call one of the private agencies.

Holloway:
Well, that's great, and I would say to our audience that at the end of this program we'll have a number available for you to call us and we can make that available to you. We also will give you our Web site information and e-mail and we can make that available electronically. Let's talk now about some of the issues facing the potential adoptive parent. I would guess there's some cultural sensitivity issues. Would that be one of the issues that are facing potential adoptive parents?

High:
Well, that would be one of the issues certainly but I think one of the bigger issues would be dealing with the child who has been in the system because the rights of his or her biological parents have been terminated. So, they come into the system because they've been abused and neglected and, so, the issue is how to deal with these children who have gone through that separation trauma. And I think Theresa mentioned it earlier about her son not being able to smile just by the fact that they've been traumatized so early in life and some of them have been bounced from one foster home to the other and they don't have that kind of connection that they need to grow up to be healthy. So, that is one of the primary issues. Culturally, the children certainly have experienced differences than perhaps some of the adoptive parents and some of them haven't, but I think the major issue would be the separation trauma and the fact that they have to deal with all the issues of not being in a family and knowing what a forever home is for them and not knowing if tomorrow they're going to move somewhere else and just not having those roots and stability that every child needs.

Brown:
(Inaudible) is also the cultural issue as far as the recruitment of foster parents and adoptive parents. I think culturally the African-American and even just people of color...we have different ways of looking at things and we have different ways of doing things and I think what tends to happen is a lot of our families are ruled out versus trying to figure out how to rule them in. One of the things that I love to hear Ruth talk about...Ruth Amerson, who runs Another Choice for Black Children, talks about how it's a perception issue. If you look at a man who has changed jobs...like, he's maybe had seven jobs in the last ten years...well, one perception could be he's unstable. Our perception is that man will not give up...he keeps going till he finds a job. Again, it's a perception issue and I think what we need to start doing is looking at things differently. In most African-American families, both parents work. They may not be able to take off time. We're usually in positions where we cannot afford to take time off to go downtown, go through the different interviews, and take time off to do so and so. Why not have hours in the evening when it's available or weekends? Again, I think that's part of the cultural issue also. Another part is also the fact that we as a culture have an unofficial foster care system and I think a lot of us...

Holloway:
(Inaudible)

Brown:
It's whoever needs to be taken care of...where the grandparent will take care of the child because the mother or the father can't take care of them, because they don't want the child in the system or someone down the street needs some help, they just moved in. I think when people say that black folks don't adopt, I think what they're saying is that we don't go through what we need to go through to do it through the system.

Holloway:
Let me ask, how long does that take? That's a question I think people would want to know.

High:
Well, it's not a simple answer. It depends. It depends on the staff that may be at the agency. For example, we keep mentioning Another Choice because that is a new black agency in the state. They have a very limited staff and they try to get to you as soon as possible. It depends on the agency that you work with, with your local Department of Social Services, but a good guess would be from four to six to seven months. It should not be that long to do the whole adoption process, to prepare you for adoption. Now, how long does it take to get a child? That depends on the kind of child you want. If you want a young child as healthy as possible, it could take a year or so. If you want one of the children who are waiting, it would take much less. What we try to do in the system is to get folks who are interested in adoption to also become foster parents, so we can place those children as soon as possible...that's before the children are legally free for adoption...so that once the child becomes free for adoption, the child will already be in his adoptive placement. So, we really do try to find folks who are interested in fostering and then are interested in adoption also.

Holloway:
Are you saying or are you implying that if you are a foster parent, that there's a possibility that the same child you have in foster...

High:
It's very likely that the child that you have as a foster parent would become your adopted child so we don't have move the child again.

Holloway:
Was that your situation, Theresa?

Brown:
That was not my situation. Again, like I said, I started out as a foster parent and preferably to teenage girls because people didn't want teenage girls and they were going from place to place to place. Now, my daughter...I did attempt to adopt my daughter, however, at that time, she was 13, 14 and they said that she was too old to be adopted. Back in those days, back years ago, they felt that at that time she was too old to give up the biological family and take on a new family but it didn't matter because now almost nine years later I have a granddaughter. I know I don't look it but I have a granddaughter and we're getting ready for a wedding and even some of the kids that I had just over a weekend or emergency placements...I think what really is important for us to get across to people is that it is not a difficult process, it is not...you don't have to be a special person to do it. All you need to do is want to help a child and when you talk about the length of time, I mean, it takes nine months to have a baby. So, if you can wait nine months to have a baby, you can wait nine months to adopt a child. And as Esther said, we've got a lot of children who are ready today. Our situation, we were very fortunate. Our son had been free for adoption for a year and a half before we were involved, so it was just...I mean, the first day we meet him it was like, "Well, when can I take my baby home?" and three weeks later we had him because he was already free, he was already ready, and there are lots of children like that.

Holloway:
Now, when we say the terminology free, we really don't mean free, we mean they're eligible but there are fees that go along with this, right?

High:
Well, free...I hadn't thought about in terms of free, money-free. Really isn't any money involved in it. Basically, it costs $35 to file a petition to adopt in North Carolina and the Division of Social Services would take care of that through a special fund. You have to put it up front. So, there are absolutely no fees in order to adopt. We contract through private agencies to adopt and we make sure that those people interested in adopting children through the foster care system do not pay fees. Those families who adopt Special Needs children, they don't get a fee but there's a subsidy for families who adopt children with special needs and these are basically the same amount of assistance that one gets if they had a foster child, that continues until the age is 18 years old. It also includes Medicaid. So, that's the effort to make sure we get the children out of foster care system.

Holloway:
Let's take this last five minutes here to talk about resolving some of these issues and problems and what can be done. You mentioned an organization that you've mentioned several times that is now working on resolving the problem of the disparity with black kids being legally free for adoption and those in the foster care system but what are some of the other things that we can do either working with other community organizations or what are some other things that we can do?

High:
Well, I think this is a real good idea...just basically getting the issue out, to let people that there really are children in the system who need families and also that agencies are willing to work with them. I mentioned Another Choice because that's basically a new agency and it really is predominantly recruiting black families but there are other private agencies like Children's Home Society and others that we're contracting with at the Division to make sure that families are found for these children. Working with communities and churches. Nationally, I think the efforts are being made to make sure the communities know that there are families, families for kids that Theresa was a part of. The emphasis on black children of North Carolina probably isn't stressed as much as others about the need of black children in this system but throughout the country there are these efforts to let people know that there are children and as much as possible to streamline the process. There was an Adoption Act passed in 1997 by President Clinton and basically what it says is that children are not to remain in the system more than a year. So, nationally, all efforts are being made to get children out of foster care and give them a permanent home.

Holloway:
Theresa, are you critical of the system, either nationally or state? I mean, how is the system working if we've got this problem? What is the problem with the system or is it just the parents or the community?

Brown:
Well, you've asked me a very dangerous question, Jay.

Holloway:
We only have two minutes.

Brown:
Okay.

Holloway:
I'm sorry. (Laughter)

Brown:
All right. The problems that I have had with the system are being addressed. Esther mentioned the issue of the adoption assistance. A lot of times a lot of children are not adopted because once they were adopted, they lost all of their benefits and people couldn't afford to keep the children. Nowadays...and it's not just within the black families...but a lot of attention has been put on the fact that now we have grandparents taking care of grandchildren. They're living on fixed incomes, they maybe can't afford to take care of these grandchildren, but if they adopted them prior, they would have had to pay all their expenses. So, now, with having the Medicaid available and having the adoption assistance, we're able to keep families together. I think the new push with the Kellogg Families for Kids, now we're looking at things with the eyes of the child, where we're saying, "What is best for this child?" Parents are adults, they've made their choice. This child did not make a choice to be in this system. I think it's also important that we let people know that it is an easy process and that it is something that we have to do and if we don't do it then we can't complain about it later.

High:
I think, also, we want it known that agencies really don't want to keep these kids in the system. We know how important it is to have a stable family. May not have done it right in the past as much as we should have but we know better that children don't belong in the foster care system, they don't belong in group homes...they belong in families.

Holloway:
One last, quick question. Regular parents don't necessarily get formal training on how to be parents. Do you train?

High:
Yes and that's important to emphasize. While it is an easy system, they do have to have preparation for adoption and in North Carolina it's about 30 hours of preparation that you have to have. There has to be an adoptive study, you have to have medical records. We have to do a criminal check. We have to make sure that these families really do want these children. So, it is a preparation stage and all that takes about four to six months.

Holloway:
That would be good for those of us that are parents of your kids, too. (Laughter)

High:
That would be wonderful. It's a wonderful class to take.

Brown:
I wish we could.

High:
It's wonderful for any parent, really.

Brown:
I want to make one more point I think is important and that is what's going to come up in the next session...is a redefinition of family...that we're not just looking at mothers and fathers now. We're looking at extended families, we're looking at friends of the family and whatever so kids can have a home.

Holloway:
Thank you all very much. I'm sorry we've run out of time on such an interesting issues but thank you very much for being with us.

High:
Thank you for having us.

Holloway:
We want to thank you also for watching Black Issues Forum on this very interesting topic and hopefully you are considering foster parenting and adoptive parenting much more than you've considered it in the past. There are the numbers on the screen to contract us. As we said, we can give you more information on that. Also, visit us on the World Wide Web site. Our Web address is www.unctv.org/bif. That's our e-mail address, as well, on the screen. Thank you very much for watching. Join us again next week and every Friday night at eleven o'clock. I'm Jay Holloway. You have a blessed evening and good night. [MUSIC]