Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. Tonight, the first in a series of statewide town hall meetings. Tonight, it's Robeson County Town Meeting on Black Issues Forum, next on UNC-TV. [MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host. Tonight, the first in a series of eleven statewide town hall meetings. Tonight we're on the campus of UNC-Pembroke in Robeson County in Pembroke, North Carolina. And we're happy to do this in association with UNC-Pembroke and to bring you this first in a series of eleven town hall meetings.

Let me say first of all to start off with, that the opportunity that we're providing for many of you across the state and starting here in Pembroke is an opportunity to share real individual experiences, some examples in each community that can be shared and learned from others all around our state; an opportunity to gain a deeper understanding across racial lines and make a commitment to some collective action on behalf of each of you in your individual communities. Earlier, when we taped this program in September of 1998, Dr. John Hope Franklin was the keynote speaker at the UNC-Pembroke fall convocation. We want to open up our program today with some comments that he made to share with you as we look at starting our discussion in our first town hall meeting.

Franklin:
I think that one of the things with this community to do is to be certain that there is no conflict, animosity, among the various groups here. This is sort of an ideal community in which you can work out your problems. One thing that must be avoided is working one group against the other, and that will yield no one any good in the long run. But emphasize the fact that we all benefit, not merely from the opportunity which we have to work on the problem, but we benefit because each one of us has in his own way something to contribute, something to do to improve our situation. The perspective of a Native American is different from the perspective of a white American, which is different from the perspective of a black American. And there is no reason in the world why these should be in conflict. Indeed, if we think about celebrating our diversity instead of fighting on the basis of diversity, I think we can go very far.

Holloway:
Now let me say that while the title of this program is Black Issues Forum, it certainly is an inclusive program and open to all North Carolinians. It's just that UNC-TV's program Black Issues Forum has taken on this as an opportunity to provide this opportunity for dialogue about race here in North Carolina. Dr. Franklin talked about four issues that we want to use as a guidelines for our discussion in response to his topic about... make sure that there's no conflict in your community, or animosity. He talked about avoiding pitting one group against another. He talked about that all of us benefit from a discussion of honest dialogue right now, and that we have different perspectives from our races. And that we should celebrate our diversity and not fight on the basis of our differences. Well let me deal with that first issue, and let me introduce to you first our panel that will react to this. And we have a live studio audience here of people from Robeson County and we're going to encourage them as well to come up and make comments on these issues. And let me start off by introducing our first panelist, Judge Herbert Richardson. He is a chief District Court Judge here in Robeson County. Judge Richardson, thank you for being with us again on Black Issues Forum.

Richardson:
Thank you.

Holloway:
Also Bo Biggs is a political analyst here, and he's a columnist for the Robesonian, and he also is a successful businessman here in Robeson County. Thank you, Beau, for being with us.

Biggs:
Good to be here.

Holloway:
And last but not least is Ken Freeman. Ken is Executive Vice President and _____ executive of Lumbee Guarantee Bank here in Robeson County, Pembroke. He's also a community developer and a member of the State Human Relations Commission here in North Carolina. Thank you for being with us as well, Ken.

Freeman:
Glad to be here.

Holloway:
Let me start off. One of the things John Hope Franklin said, who we know that Dr. Franklin is chair of the President's Commission on Race Relations and a noted historian who really needs no introduction but I thought I would give that brief background. Judge Richardson, you deal with conflict I'm sure everyday as a judge, a District Court judge. How can we make sure--now these comments were directed to this community--he says be certain that there is no conflict or animosity and that we're an ideal community. And let me say that we are delighted to be in your community in Robeson County which is the most diverse community; UNC-Pembroke, I understand, is the most diverse institution in America. But are we certain that there's no conflict here?

Richardson:
I think anywhere you have human beings you're going to have conflict. It is the nature of human being to be group oriented--in other words, they like to be around groups. But at the same time, they want their own space. Most of the conflict that I see normally is black on black, Native American on Native American, and white on white. Occasionally, it will cross that line. But because of our living patterns, we basically live in groups of communities where we are in homogenous surroundings, which means that it's either an all-black neighborhood, all-white neighborhood or all Indian. And occasionally, we will on the edges slide over and cross that line, and occasionally conflicts will arise. But on an average day, you will find that most of the conflict that I resolve in a court is either black on black, white on white, Indian on Indian, and sometimes they will cross-mix. But most of it comes from a failure to speak and resolve--failure to talk like we're talking right now. We react and then think later. If a child bumps another child's bicycle and the mama runs out and hits the child, the child comes, mama comes out and hits them. It could have been resolved between two intelligent individuals, but it was not. And as a result it ended up in front of me. Now that has nothing to do with grace, it has to do with the fact that two adults did not sit down and act intelligent and discuss the matter. And children pick up on that habit, and as a result, they think that physical violence or some kind of aggressive conduct is the way to resolve these conflicts, and it ends up in front of me and I assume, dispatch that matter to say it can't be done that way. You must talk, not strike. And we try to emphasize that in everything we do here.

Holloway:
And that's what we're doing today. Ken Freeman, you are on the State Human Relations Commission. Do you see conflict around the state in this community, in this primarily tri-racial community?

Freeman:
Yeah, there's conflict around the state which is not... well conflict is not unique to Robeson County, of course. We've had many conflicts around the state. For instance, in the metropolitan area of Charlotte there's been a lot of conflict up there between citizens and the police that the state has been dealing with. But the key to conflict is not necessarily--not having conflict, I think, as the judge said, we're going to have conflict. The key is to conflict resolution. And you have to set up processes to move from conflict to conflict resolution, whether it be here in Robeson County or anywhere else in the state or world for that matter.

Holloway:
Bo Biggs, you've looked at it from a similar viewpoint that we would as a writer for the local newspaper. But you've written about some of the conflicts that are here. What's your view on this situation.

Biggs:
Of course, what my exposure, it's a little bit different from Judge

Richardson:
he gets to see it in the courtroom, and then I get to see it from a political perspective. And you probably have heard, of course, we've got a wonderful county and I think the ethnic cultural diversity is a wonderful asset. And when it gets down to the political scene, obviously, you have a great mix of diverse views, not only from party--Democrat and Republican--but within the races themselves that might cause division there. And we have very interesting political elections and we always resolve our differences at the ballot box in a peaceful way. We have obviously very spirited ways to carry on political battles in the county, but I believe sometimes it's just coincidental that certain groups, there might be a political race on a certain issue that are touting a certain idea or certain philosophy, but when it comes down to it, I think as Robeson moves through this that we have gone tremendously--made great strides in our racial relationships in the workplace and in our political municipalities and the county courthouse. I was very proud again, politically, All-American City for the City of Lumberton, I think we had a huge diversity of people of all race that pulled together for the community. And so the conflicts that I see politically are always decided at the ballot box and then we go on to another day down the road.

Holloway:
We do want to encourage our audience if they have any comments or questions also to please feel free to come up to the microphone. Dr. Franklin also mentioned that this is an ideal community to work out problems. Perhaps when you have primarily three or tri-racial community--which is where America or the state is supposedly moving to, but probably largely Hispanic, black and white--then you obviously have worked through some of those conflicts. You may not have them right now, but you have worked through those. Is that true?

Richardson:
Yes we have. When I first came here in 1978, there were no African-Americans in the courthouse working as far as the judges, DAs, assistant DAs. And now you look around, almost every other door, you see one. That did not come overnight. There was some pain... Anytime you start growing, anytime you start including other people that have not been represented in the beginning, people feel like they're being pushed out, they're being disenfranchised, they're being thrown aside, and they raise some issues that maybe somebody's getting a disproportionate share of it. But what we said is that if you look around anywhere in this county, you see people of color. And every business should reflect what the community looks like, and if it does not, then I think that is a source of problem.

Holloway:
I think, as our cameras have shot on the audience, that they'll see why this community has celebrated so much of its diversity. And let's go, this is what a town hall meeting is all about, let's go to our first question or comment. Sir.

Q:
My name is Kenneth Minneton, I'm a secondary education major here at UNC-Pembroke, and I just wanted to know what were your feelings on the Million Youth March that they had the other week that I saw on C-Span?

Holloway:
I think that this gentleman is referring to, in New York and Atlanta in the fall or summer of '98, there was a Million Youth rally or march, primarily African-American youth. And you want to know the panel's reaction to that? Are you all familiar with that? Do you have any comments about that?

Biggs:
I caught bits and pieces of it, and again, I'm scared to comment because obviously I've read the AP wire and Mayor Guliani's response to it, which was very negative to the march. I caught just the tail-end of the very thing you saw on C-Span, and from what I got though, there was--like you said earlier in some comments before we started--that there might have been some comments, maybe some racist comments that were made there. But I hate to stake it out without seeing all the speeches that were made.

Freeman:
I had seen it on the news and of course I assume it's kind of a dovetail to the Million Man March that took place earlier on a few months ago. But my comment on that is the motive behind it. If it's to pit one group of people against another, then I can't go along with it. It the purpose is to educate people to better human relations and better race relations and how we can get along, then I support it 100%. So I'm not in a position to say what the total motive what it was--but it depends on the purpose.

Holloway:
Thank you for your comments. That's the next point that Dr. Franklin mentioned, is avoid pitting one group against another. Do you want to elaborate on that since you just mentioned that? Because that's one of the things....

Freeman:
Yeah, I would comment on that from the point of view and maybe talk about it first as a statewide situation. I think that, I see in working with many state agencies across the state that more groups are working together more and more. Although we still have our own racial groups that we work with on a day to day basis, I do see more of a collaboration and interaction. In Robeson County, I think we need to see more of that. We have had it; it seems like it comes and it goes. But I think the goal should be to encourage collaboration between the groups, not pitting one against the other because of politics, race, or geographical areas. These are the way you reach your solutions.

Holloway:
Speaking of diverse, I mean not only do we have a racially diverse audience here in a diverse community, but it's a pretty good mixture of age as well, and that first question came from a youth. And I guess, youth, I would be interested in hearing also from more of you from the youth--and I see we have some in line--about your issues on these race relation issues. Sir, you have a comment or a question?

Q:
Yes, my name is Wyatt Johnson, I'm a city councilman here in Lumberton for the last 16 years. I noticed that in Robeson County right now, we are becoming void of young leadership. And the reason for that I think is that there's a distrust of public officials, to include preachers, educators, government officials, law enforcement, and directors of public programs. I'd like to address this to the panel: how can we overcome this situation?

Holloway:
Good question. Who would like to take that first?

Biggs:
I want to compliment Councilman Johnson--he's my former city councilman when I was living in town--for that question. That's something that's very difficult, as we all know. We've heard about the citizen legislature, and it takes so much time to run for city council, to run for school board, because they're very underpaid, unforgiving positions. And I'm not too sure what the answer is to try to eliminate the feelings among the youth to get involved politically, be it of whatever race, and to get involved in the issues of the day because obviously there is a high mistrust level at the present time of certain of those that are in office, for whatever reason they might be, in your local government, state government, or federal government. But Councilman Johnson, I don't know what the answer to that is, how to get the new leadership. We are void of leadership of county. I think the older leaders are aging out, and we are facing a void, I believe, in the coming years of new leaders to take the issues of the community.

Holloway:
And that's a problem that people are dealing with all across our state, and Judge, you probably see more of this that we're talking about with youth and your courts. Do you have any comments as to this whole issue of youth and mistrust and involvement in leadership?

Richardson:
I think trust in public leadership is a matter of credibility. Are you a credible person? Are you trustworthy? Are you worthy of being trusted by the public? Do you demonstrate that day-in and day-out? Now, if you're going to bring leadership to a particular community, you have to start it very early. You cannot just all of a sudden put down bad habits and all of a sudden step out into the forefront. I think that every day in your home, you have to have credibility with your children, with your wife. You've got to be honest at home. If you can't be honest with your wife, with your children, then you can't be honest with the public. So therefore, if you're a poor husband or a poor father, you cannot be a good leader--I'm sorry, but you can't. So therefore, the children see us doing things that we should not be doing, and then we go out into the public and do things and the children say, "Look. I know you when you're at home and that's not what you're doing." So therefore they distrust adults, anybody above 30. There's an old saying, "Don't trust anybody above 30." And here we are again. I think right now, if we don't go back to establishing a level of credibility inside our family relationship where we raise God-fearing children to obey the law and obey God--if you don't get back to that, talking about anything else is irrelevant. Because if you don't have credibility at home, you don't have credibility in yourself, and you don't believe it and don't trust it, it's not going to work outside the house. So you go home, take care of business and then step outside to serve the public. If you can't take care of your home, you've got no business taking care of the public.

Holloway:
Thank you very much. The next category, I just want to introduce this but I want to go to our next question and comment from the audience, but the third point that Dr. Franklin mentioned was that we all benefit from working on the problem because each of us has a different perspective and we should take advantage of the opportunity to hear these different perspectives. So let's hear another perspective or question. Ma'am, go right ahead.

Q:
My name is Caroline Sumpter and I represent C-UP, standing for Citizens United for Progress in Red Springs. And my question is directed to Mr. Freeman. You served on the Commission. Do you think the dissolution of the Robeson County Human Relations Commission was detrimental to race relations in our county?

Holloway:
Let me just say one thing before you answer that. We're going to do two parts on this program, and this first one we want to kind of talk about how Dr. Franklin's comments relate to some general issues. And in our part two, which will air next week, which we will also be taping here, we're going to deal with that directly about why the Robesonian, the local human relations commission, I understand, has been abolished. But let's talk about the perspectives, and we're going to get to that in part two, but that's a very good question, ma'am. But if you could talk about it from a general point of view.

Freeman:
From a general perspective, again, I go back and reiterate that when you do away with processes that promote better human relations and working together, I think you're going backwards. It's progress in reverse. And so I just have to stay with that concept.

Holloway:
Yes, sir.

Q:
Yes, my name is Tim Heath and I'm from Red Springs as a member of the civic group, Citizens United for Progress. And I guess my question to the panel is, we have Affirmative Action policies that are being stricken down across the country. I guess it started with the admissions policy at the University of California Berkeley, and it seems to be trickling across America. In the African-American community, as we see it now, a lot of us feel like those role models that have been there for our children are now being diminished and being eliminated, and I'd just like to ask, you know, if we don't have Affirmative Action to put those role models there, then what do we need to do or what do you suggest we do to make sure that we maintain them there so that our kids will have somebody they want to emulate in terms of someone that's got a culture similar to theirs.

Holloway:
You're a political analyst, do you want to try to tackle that one first?

Biggs:
Well I'll try to. Obviously, of course, in our county, it's unique because of our cultural diversity here. What we've seen over the years and the changes, the Supreme Court changes and the rulings by the Supreme Court, we've seen a movement from, I guess--I don't know where the pendulum lies--from quotas and race-based type, be it scholarships or hiring, and from that end and now, moving--of course you have the other extreme where you don't have any at all or any favorability of racial preference towards anybody on the other extreme. And somehow in the middle we've got to come in there, and where that middle is I'm not sure 'cause you do have a case, be it fair or by prior acts or years ago against a certain group of individuals where you can have reverse discrimination and you've got to somehow balance those two between the two of them, and hopefully, though, our society can balance that and continue the role models and afford everybody, those that maybe not have the same bid on economics or racial reasons, the same opportunities to education or a job, that we can somehow balance that.

Holloway:
We only have a few minutes left and thank you so much for that question. I want to move it to the last topic area that Dr. Franklin mentioned, is celebrating our diversity instead of sometimes fighting on the basis of the differences. And prior to that, about all of us benefiting from these different perspectives, and you talked about the different perspectives on Affirmative Action. But how can we celebrate those differences--and I guess really what I want to move it to, what is it then that we're willing to do as individuals and as collective groups to actually take some action to make a difference about this? So how can we do that? Who wants to take on?

Freeman:
Jay, I'd like to comment on that. It's something that I constantly thought about over the ten years that I served on the county human relations commission, is appreciation for our differences. And I think that's where the problem comes in a lot of times, is appreciation for our differences. Sometimes you hear the term called "tolerance" when it comes to human relations and race relations. I've never liked that word "tolerance." I don't want somebody to tolerate me, I want somebody to appreciate me, or I want to appreciate you. So from that point of view I think that--I don't want African-Americans to become Indian, and I don't want the Indian to become African-Americans or the European-Americans and vice versa as it goes on. Let's appreciate one another, not tolerate one another--but appreciate one another to have better human relations.

Holloway:
We only have time for one other question, and we have one person here.

Q:
Hi, I have a question, and it's the selection criteria that is used when hiring an individual or accepting someone to an accredited school. They sometimes say you have to have a certain number of minorities, and I want to ask, is that a type of discrimination? It is used.

Richardson:
Well, if you use it to say that you want to include everybody, to give everybody including women, people from Asia, Europe and other places, an opportunity to be in a group--say if you only have a class of 100, and you're trying to include people from 30 countries and 50 states, how do you do it in such a base? Well if you use strictly numbers, you and I both know that you're going to either exclude all women, exclude all men or all African-Americans or all..... If you're trying to only use cold numbers, you're going to get that type of group. But you will not get that cross-flavor. It's sort of like when you make bouillon base--if you try to make soup--you can make just one kind of soup ________, but if you go and add a little bit of this, a little bit of that, it adds a wonderful flavor. You look around this room: it's the most beautiful sight I've ever seen; beautiful people. Now if you just said only white people can sit in this section and only Indians can sit here and all the blacks can sit over here, it would not have the same flavor; it would not have the same impact as if you said, "Well what we're going to do is give everybody a chance to get in here." We're not going to say you must have ten of this and ten of that; we're going to say everybody has a chance to get in. If you do it that way, I don't think there's anything wrong with it. But if you say you must have 25 of these and 25 of these, I think you're going to get in a problem.

Q:
That's the way you do it.

Richardson:
That's exactly right. But I'd rather think that we're going to say, "We're going to give everybody that has the skill level an opportunity to get in here." I think if you do that, that's what we're talking about here tonight, is giving everybody a chance--I'm not saying a preference, we're saying a chance. I don't want you to give me anything--get out of my way, I'll get it myself. But don't hinder me by saying, "Oh no, you can't be in there because you're the wrong color, you're the wrong sex." No, I'm not going to do that; that's wrong. So what we're saying is that we're not talking quotas here. We're talking about opportunity. That's what we're all talking about here tonight. That's why we've got everybody sitting around this room. Opportunity. Give every man, woman, child the opportunity to succeed, not looking at this, but looking at this. And this is what we're talking about here today.

Q:
Thanks.

Holloway:
Well believe it or not, we have just less than a minute to go, and I just want to take the time to thank you all and thank your community for hosting this first town hall meeting here in Robeson County. I think we've had an interesting discussion, but as always, a discussion is just starting a dialogue. But what I want all of us to think about is what will we do as individuals and when in our groups, take back home and think about some of these things that you talked about. And I want to thank you, Judge, you Mr. Biggs, as well as Mr. Freeman for participating. And thank you studio audience here for being with us and participating. And I want to encourage also our television audience to join us again next week. We'll be here also again in Robeson County on the campus of UNC-Pembroke to talk more details about some issues that perhaps are also important in your community about some political issues, some school board issues, and other race relations issues that probably could learn from here in North Carolina. Also want to end just by saying that, think about your attitudes on race that influence your behaviors and consequently your behaviors dictate some of the consequences of your actions. Also, if you have comments or questions, we want you to contact us on our World Wide Web; the address is on your screen, telephone numbers to call in and give us your comments as well as write us here at UNC-TV. I'm Jay Holloway, host of Black Issues Forum, and thank you for watching this town hall meeting from Robeson County on the campus of UNC-Pembroke. You have a blessed evening and a good night. [MUSIC]