Holloway:
Tonight we're in Asheville for another Town Hall Meeting on race relations. We'll be talking about building bridges through education and economic development. That's next on Black Issues Forum, stay tuned. [MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Jay Holloway, you're host. We're in Asheville, North Carolina tonight for another Town Hall Meeting. Once again, as you know, we'll be doing Town Hall Meetings all across the State and we're delighted to be here with UNC-Asheville and the citizens of Asheville and Buncombe County. Tonight we'll be discussing race relations but specifically minority student achievement and education. As you know we are going around the State. We'll be in your community soon if we haven't been there already.

One of the things we'd like to say in this discussion, we hope that as a result of these discussions you will think about your attitudes, behaviors and consequences of those behaviors as a result of this conversation tonight and maybe think about what you can do differently. I do want to ask each of you a question watching and those of you in the audience. How often do you think about the color of your skin?

Well, if you are like most people, if you are black, you probably think about that daily. If you are white, probably not that often. But we are going to discuss that tonight specifically with education and student achievement here in Buncombe County and Asheville and hopefully you will learn some lessons about how you can deal with that same issue because it is an issue all around the state.

Let me introduce our distinguished panelists here and we're here from an audience from Buncombe County and Asheville as well. First I'd like to introduce Vicki Dineen, she's principal of Isaac Dixon Elementary School here in Asheville. She is co-chair of the Student Achievement Task Force Exploration Team and that is to study alternative classroom settings for underachieving students in the Asheville City School Systems. And you have a child in this school system as well?

Dineen:
Yes.

Holloway:
Thank you for joining us. Also Mark Gordon. Mark is Vice President of Heart Services at Mission St. Joseph's Health System. He is also the co-chair of the Student Achievement Task Force Exploration Team to study alternative classroom settings for underachieving students. And you are also a parent of a child or children?

Gordon:
I have children.

Holloway:
Children here. In the public school system.

Gordon:
Not in the school system yet.

Holloway:
Okay, but they are coming.

Gordon:
They are coming.

Holloway:
And last but not least Dr. Dr. Dwight Mullin. Dwight is an associate professor and chair of the UNC-Asheville Political Science department and an advocate for Afrocentric schools. And you have four students, two of them have already graduated and two are still in the public schools here in Asheville, is that correct?

Mullin:
That's right.

Holloway:
Well, thank you all so much for participating in this discussion tonight. Achieving, minority student achievement is a problem we have state-wide. So here in Asheville and Buncombe County you are not unlike the state-wide problem. Mark, let me go to you first and talk about, maybe what are some of the statistics, what are some of the, why is this a problem here in Asheville and what have you been doing about it, the exploration team and task force that you and Vicki co-chair.

Gordon:
Well, I think one of the, when you look at this concern with the gap in achievement between white students and black students, this is not a new circumstance. And it is becoming the vogue to talk a lot about this topic within the last several years within the state-wide educational system and within the nation. But even when I was in school, coming up through the elementary school system this has always been a topic. What to do about African American achievement. As we enter our new millennium I think it is incumbent upon me, citizens of the community, to really take a hard look at this question. It is a very difficult question. As President Clinton started his committee, Council on Race, chaired by our own Dr. John Hope Franklin, that is a true recognition of a national circumstance whereas the new millennium comes about that we really must come to grips with understand the impact of race on our daily lives. And nothing is more important to the development of our community as is our education system.

Holloway:
Vicky, how big is the disparity between the achievement of minority students and other students?

Dineen:
It is large enough that it is a concern for Asheville City Schools, all teachers, principles and teachers that work within the system. Seven of our schools were exemplary in the ABC program this summer, but we don't feel that that's enough. We want our proficiency rate to increase so we looked really hard at what we're doing in Asheville City School with the Student Achievement Task Force and we've already made some, I think, some enormous changes that will reduce that gap even further. And we won't stop until the gap is reduced.

Holloway:
For the past few years the State Department of Public Instruction has started a blueprint for success. And we did a program on that a few years ago. And I just wanted to remind our audience that we have that information available on our Website and they can get that tape to find out more. But has that blueprint been successful for you here in Buncombe County or Asheville?

Dineen:
Well, we are working diligently with DPI, with their plans. They have made very specific growth steps for each school system. And it is within part of the ABC program that there is local control and that each school system looks individually at their own issues, their own problems and the gap between achievement is definitely a problem that we are addressing in Asheville City Schools.

Gordon:
I would like to pick up on that point. That is where local control becomes idiosyncratic to that local community and where that local community may even need to do some very hard looking at some things that may seem a bit radical in their approach to understand exactly what things are causing the gap, the gaps, in your educational achievement. But every community is going to be unique. Even though it is a national problem, we all have unique circumstances and that is where the local citizens need to take control of the process and have the school system understand how far they can go in innovating and recreating their school system.

Holloway:
Let me ask Dr. Mullin. We asked our audience before we started why we think that we have that problem. And I probably should have jumped right in and set it first, and we got a wide range of answers. Do you want to take a stab at why do you think we have this disparity?

Mullin:
Well, we can trace it, here in Asheville, back to the 1980's, early 1980's. And you see disparities between reading, math, writing abilities, achievements on standardized exams going all the way back to the California Achievement Test to the Scholastic Aptitude Test, SAT. And that is the question, why, why, why? Why do we get 100 point disparities. Why do we get half of the achievement for African American students that we might have for the white students. And the answers depend on what audience you are asking. But for me I think primary among the reasons are that when we integrated the schools we didn't sufficiently protect and plan for the complete participation of all the communities effected. And so here we are, 20 or 30 years after integration, and we see a decline in the numbers of black teachers. We see a decline in the numbers of African American administrators. And without those key individuals in place, the students, I think, have responded in a very negative way. And it is time to change that now.

Holloway:
Well, I know that we have a studio audience here and I would encourage you to come to the microphone if you have comments, and I know that we have heard several reasons why many people and perhaps those watching, the upbringing, the family background, whether it is a two parents household or not, I know that's been brought up and that's an issue. Cultural sensitivity. Even the testing standards, you referred to some of the tests, some of the standards, and even some of the expectations. Do we, in the black community, do we in the larger community, does the State expect black students to have achievement similar to those of their counterparts?

Mullin:
I think it is only here recently where we've even attached a financial incentive. With the ABC programs teachers are rewarded for being exemplary. I think we need to refine it some more now, because if we look closer at Asheville City Schools we find that the African American Students made significant progress but are still only scoring in the 40, 50th % in terms of being at grade level or above. Most of the students are still not at grade level and that is unacceptable.

Gordon:
Back on your comment on parental involvements, parental involvements is one of the major predictors of academic success. I think where we are as a school system, though is to recreate the school system, like other industries have done, to fit the environment in which they exist. A one parent household is likely not to reverse itself any time within the next several decades. The children of single parent households are well into their school age years now. To have them be academically successful we must build a supportive environment in the school system that reflects the society. Because we are not determinants of the society. Society determines the school system. And that is where we are in terms of recreating that environment so that we, as we move into a new millennium into what is the traditional support for that child.

Holloway:
Vicky, what do you think white teachers need to know about black students in handling this problem?

Dineen:
I think we, it is very important that teachers understand that there are cultural differences. I think it goes one step further. I think that we have to look individually at each and every student . That you make a plan in a school in a classroom for each and every child that you have. And this is one of the steps that we've taken in Asheville City Schools from the Student Achievement Task Force, that no longer do we look at groups of children that are not making progress, but we look specifically at each individual child and what is keeping that child from being successful. And if we keep our focus and if we keep working in a very sincere and doing the professional personal plans that we have developed for the children, I think we will see a great deal of success with the children.

Holloway:
That seems like a very logical way to approach it, on individual. And I guess that is one of the criticisms of the President's Commission on Race is that, and a lot of people say we are shooting for a color blind society, but I hear what you are saying and I would say that maybe that it is a color intelligent society where you look at people, whether it is race or any other variable, and make an intelligent decision about that individual and not be color blind about it.

Dineen:
And I think that all teachers need to be aware. And we are looking at that issue, we are all providing immense staff development training for teachers so that we can make our curriculum relevant to the children and make it important to them so that they see themselves in the curriculum that we have within our schools. And that is a goal that we will continue to work towards.

Holloway:
Speaking of seeing themselves, how, in this community and around the state, I know that there is a shortage of developing teachers throughout university systems and there is a need and we're really trying hard in this state to get new teachers and retain teachers as well. But in seeing themselves, do the black children see themselves in this community in the public schools, black teachers, male teachers, I know we're just short of male teachers anyway but...

Gordon:
I don't think we, we're losing our black teachers. Some of our really excellent black teachers are retiring. We are not nearly in the intake process in terms of getting our African American teachers in. One, because that market just isn't there. Now, on the other hand, having a child understand their environment as in the seventies, and we're seeing again in the nineties except in a different fashion, is an understanding of that black child by looking at the productive professional African American professionals who are in the working world. Was that a good trade off in terms of what they had to do, in terms of the presentation of themselves and their skills. And is it worth them actually giving up their culture for that? And I think some of the kids are actually needing to see some of that cultural inclusion in their environment every day. The teachers are doing an excellent job of trying to bring that to the classroom, but actually developing an environment where that child feels comfortable, supported and confident about who they are is not a new concept. But we haven't done a real good job of really creating an environment that accentuates a child's individuality. And an African American child does have a culture that needs to be enhanced.

Holloway:
Well, speaking of that and a new concept, in our state we are about two or three years maybe, second year or so into the charter school concept. And I think we have someone in our audience, I know, one of the parents who is involved in one of the new charter schools. Is that correct, sir?

M:
Yes, charter school. That's not my question, my question, my comment is that if we had, if the situation were reversed and you had the numbers of white kids failing and below grade level that you have the number of black kids the schools would be radically looking at what is going on and maybe even shutting down. Industries can't operate the ways the schools operate. So my concern again, and I would like this comment addressed by each of the panelists, what are our expectations. Until I saw the ABCs come out and the schools can actually be closed down or taken over by the state if they continue to fail or have a failure rate, I've not seen any real movement on how minority kids are educated. So, again, it comes back to expectations and consequences. So, I'd like all you folks to comment on that if you would.

Holloway:
Who wants to jump on that first.

Mullin:
I will.

Holloway:
We touched on that.

Mullin:
I have no problem with that. One of the things that I am advocating are schools that responsive to the community. I think it is a mistake to distance the communities from the schools in a very personal way, because I find that the communities have the highest standards of expectations for those students. And I think that when African American students are separated from their communities in the ways which we find the students in Asheville city, over and over again, I think that is a mistake. And you can't expect much of an improvement. Take for example here in Asheville city, we are, the ABC programs for example, concentrate on the academic achievement. That is really fine. Finally we are looking at academic achievement. But there are also social components. The child is also growing to become a member of the community. What does that community look like, how does that community have input and control. All those things are issues, I think are clarified when we start bringing back the schools with the neighborhoods. I think that is a very important thing.

Holloway:
Anybody else want to try to take a stab at it.

Gordon:
Well, I think without a doubt one of the difficult natures of this discussion is sometimes it is politically incorrect, but there is the power relationships within a community and white flight is not absent from the mind set in Asheville City Schools or anywhere else. What will happen once you lose your middle class white child, if you start to reinvent, innovate your school system, the process of that tinkering with that system, will it cause more flight from that school system. These are all very difficult questions and very sensitive questions. But the relationships in terms of who you try to keep in that school versus who you try to satisfy in that school are very real to us. And one of the major issues in the _____ that I hear in Asheville is that there is a perception that the satisfaction of their child and the satisfaction of that parent within the school system is not actively sought after. And that in term disengages the parent from the school.

Holloway:
Well, should the black community expect the larger community to take on that as a responsibility or is this the responsibility of the black community.

Gordon:
Well, I guess you could at that from a public accountability standpoint. Tax dollars are, should be spent in an accountable fashion. If it is, if you ask that in terms of a question of should the black community take on its obligation to be responsive to the needs of their children? Absolutely to both. We should be accountable to our public dollars and make our public officials accountable to our public dollars. And also, the black community has an obligation to be responsive, to pursuing its needs and wants.

Holloway:
Thank you. Vicky, what about these expectations?

Dineen:
Okay, I truly do believe that we are setting high standards for ourselves, for all of our children. We had 100 community members with a thousand hours in the Student Achievement Task Force and we are implementing daily the things, the ideas that the task force suggested that would make a difference in student achievement. It is going to take some time. They are being implemented daily now. I think that we will see the proficiency rate of all students increasing in Asheville City Schools with these efforts.

Holloway:
Thank you. We have another comment or question. Sir, go right ahead, please.

M:
Good evening, welcome to Ashevillle. H.K. Edgerton, President of the Asheville branch of the NAACP. I wish I could ask this question to one of my heroes, Virgil Smith, who is also here in the audience. What has the introduction of crack cocaine, rap music, negative images from Hollywood and TV and the image of the African American male played in the decline of student achievement in the African American community.

Holloway:
Your question, anybody.....

M:
I also wanted to say, Dr. Mullin, I did so many things that you've said, too.

Mullin:
This is what I'm talking about, Mr. Edgerton, this is what I'm saying is that the schools are there to address academic skills. No question, the state is holding people accountable through ABC programs. But that is only part of the story. We still have to address the social development of our children. There are socialization issues that haven't even begun to be addressed by the district. But every neighborhood is very well aware of the negative repercussions of the things that you've listed. Now, whether or not the student culture is in control or whether or not we as a community take control of that is a decision we have to make.

Holloway:
You know, quite often the media is blamed a lot. And as a representative of the media I am quite often to say that that is only part of the equation. And I guess you are alluding to some of that, it is really a community's responsibility but there have been criticisms of this, it takes a whole village to raise a child, some people would say, no, it just takes a parent, a family. So, there are two views that way. Another comment or question, sir, go right ahead.

M:
My name is Martin Levy I am an independent business man. Preferences, quotas and affirmative action have been declared unconstitutional by a federal court, and I don't know whether professor, whether this has been upheld by the Supreme Court, but eventually it will be, if the court continues to be 5-4. I would like to know what effect that will have on Asheville, Buncombe County and, because, I believe the country is going conservative, the south went conservative when Lyndon Baines Johnson signed the Civil Rights Bill. And just to make it short, what effect will it have on minorities in the United States.

Holloway:
So, we are really talking about this whole state, everyone is aware of this issue. Our university system is taking a look at it. And he did make a point to put preferences, quotas and affirmative action, because people define it differently. Who wants to take a stab at that. How is that going to effect our education, let's specifically look at our public school education. We know that higher education is another big issue.

Mullin:
Well, we can't resolve it right now but...

Gordon:
But you know, when the _____ approaches is this, it is this dilemma that on one hand you are being prohibited from talking about race based programs, on the other hand you have the expectation and the real political pressure as well as the moral obligation of including your entire citizenry. How do you do that without talking about race. Well, at some point people have to take in hand something other than the law as their guidelines. And for me, as a citizen, I think that it is very important to talk about those things, even though the law may not let me talk about things, because I have the freedom of speech.

Mullin:
I think the circular argument that we get into, education, affirmative action, quotas, preferences, you start to roll over on yourself. The economic question of whether or not we can actually get kids to that level where we know there is a direct correlation between the socioeconomic status and the educational performance of the child and the myth of a color blind society persists. We do not have a color blind society and the realism that discrimination still occurs today still has not totally some impact on the socioeconomic viability of the black family. So, it is a very circular argument. If you take away the preferences, you take away affirmative action, yes there will be some question about that. Now standards, I'm in whole agreement that standards and rigorous academic standards for our black children are a must. There should not be a dumbing down of any standard. They need to be trained, they need to be rigorously pursued academically. I've never seen a research study that has proven that more rigor produces less performance. It doesn't exist. And that is up to the black community to set that standard.

Holloway:
We have another comment or question, sir. I believe you are here with the students at UNC-Asheville.

M:
Yes, my name is Justin Stein and I'm a senior here at UNC-A. It was mentioned earlier how one of the mechanisms of integration was this color blind approach to education. And we've heard that it has possibly had or it has had detrimental effects in regards to the disparity of performance between minorities and white students. And I also heard that a possible remedy to this is now to have a Afrocentric school or other schools that serve specifically the needs of minority students. My question is, I can see how this very well may assist in the achievement of minority students, but as a white students it is sometimes hard to see the forest through the trees, but I know very well that high school education, college education is very eurocentric and white-centered and my question is how will creating these minority centered schools, like an Afrocentric school assist with the problem that white students have in that we're constantly being taught that, essentially, we are the center.

Holloway:
Dr. Dwight Mullin, you are an advocate for these Afrocentric schools. Can you handle that?

Mullin:
I would prefer to think of them as community schools. Afrocentrism carries with it certain philosophical baggage that I'm not sure I carry. But the thing is, you know, Justin, you know, you are one of my favorite students, but I don't see Afrocentrism as being, I don't see the focus on the education of the African American students as being equivalent of eurocentrism, of a core curriculum that refuses to recognize a contributions or peripheralizes at best the contributions of other cultures. I just don't see the same thing. What I, my justification is that at the elementary and secondary level I think it is very important to equip students with skills and with training that allow them to succeed no matter what the environment. And that success does not include the peripheralization of other peoples. It just does not.

Holloway:
We only have about three minutes left and, let's move to the next kind of question and we're going to try to wrap this up, believe it or not time has moved on. Yes, sir?

M:
I just have an observation. You talked about, in your opening statement, I'm O.T. Thoms, a local minister here. How often do you think of the color of your skin? It is a proven and demonstrated fact that by fifth grade white students clearly understand that they have something looking out for their welfare. By the same token, black students at that level know that they are not in charge and will never have the equal opportunity that white students have. That is just an observation.

Holloway:
So, I guess we are going back to expectations and some believe that if they feel that way that it effects their achievement. Anyone want to tackle that real quickly before we conclude.

Gordon:
Kids are very bright. And even at a very young age, and Reverend Thoms, Councilman Thoms is very right, they see that very early and they watch the behaviors and not the words.

Dineen:
One of our principals at Randolph Elementary shared a story with us with one of the educational staff developments that we are doing is working one on one with children and she was working an African American child and he made a comment to her that made her know that he felt that being black in the picture was not good. And it is an issue and it is an issue we have to address and it is an issue we have to work on. And I think knowing it is the first step. And then the next steps are working with the children in finding out from folks like this panel, what do we do, how do we change this?

Holloway:
Well, and, that is a good concluding statement. What do we do and how do we change it. We want to thank all three of you and our studio audience for participating. We will continue with this discussion next week and talk about economic opportunities around the state but specifically in Asheville and Buncombe County. Also, hopefully you've thought about how you view race and education as implications, what are your expectations, what are the standards we are holding our children accountable for. And what are you doing to engage yourself to make a difference in your community. Well, we want to thank you so much for watching Black Issues Forum. We'd like to encourage you to visit our Website. The address is on your screen. Call us at the number or fax us with your comments or questions. We do have information on our Website and tapes available about how you can improve minority student achievement, a blueprint for success. If you contact us we'd be happy to get that to you. So, please join us again next week for another Town Hall Meeting in Durham. It won't be next week, I'm sorry, it will be Asheville next week, but the following will be Durham. Next week we'll continue with the discussion on economic opportunities. I'm Jay Holloway, thank you so very much for joining us on Black Issues Forum here in Asheville. You have a blessed evening and a good night.