Holloway:
Tonight we're in Greenville for another Town Hall Meeting on race relations. Stay tuned next on Black Issues Forum. [MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Jay Holloway, you're host. Tonight a Town Hall Meeting again, this time in eastern North Carolina, in Greenville. Tonight we have with us three guests that will be very good guests to talk in our part one episode of this Town Hall Meeting in Greenville. First, let me introduce you to Mildred Council, she's on the City Council here in Greenville. Welcome, Ms. Council.

Council:
Thank you so much.

Holloway:
Also, the mayor of Greenville, Mayor Nancy Jenkins. Mayor, thank you for being with us.

Jenkins:
Thank you for being in Greenville.

Holloway:
And last but not least Bishop Randy B. Royal with the Phillipi Church of Christ and also the Coalition Against Racism. Thank you for being here. First let me get it straight, is it GREENville or GREENVILLE.

Jenkins:
Either one as long as you say it loud and clear. I say Greenville.

Holloway:
I noticed that. Well, I hope you all accept me for either...

Jenkins:
Either is fine.

Holloway:
Well, let's talk about it. In many instances your area is recognized much as the gateway to Eastern North Carolina, the main city when people look to what is going on here. What are the state race relations in Greenville, Eastern North Carolina and Pitt County. I read about the problem a year ago with the police brutality and it has come back up now. And I've researched, that seems to be one of the initial issues. And that is not unlike some other areas across the state. Who would like to start off and get some comments about why that has raised its head again here in Greenville.

Royal:
I think from the community's perspective we have a history, not just in Greenville, but in other areas of overzealousness on the parts of some police persons. While that is not an indictment to the whole of the police department, it truly happens. And I think one of the reasons that we need conferences like this and race relation workshops is that the city, at times, seems to be in denial and pretend that it doesn't exist. And it does exist. And the worst thing one can do is try to sweep it under a rug or pretend that it doesn't exist. Because whether it exists in a large part or in pockets, it exists. That is why you have organizations like the Pitt County Coalition against racism.

Holloway:
Mayor, does the city have a commission on human relations, race relations to deal with this and how have you all dealt with this.

Jenkins:
Indeed we do. And I think Reverend Royal would even agree that our perceptions, his and mine sometimes, are different. I have been here some 35 years so I feel as if I have really seen Greenville progress in a very fine way, in many ways, one of them being race relations. And we work very diligently in having an International Day and being sure that our councils and boards and commissions are balanced and the kinds of things over which we really can have control. As far as this, these other matters, I have not perceived them as any particular problem in Greenville.

Holloway:
Mildred, what is your opinion, you've heard two different viewpoints of this and where do you stand in what has been your view from your constituency or from your personal viewpoint.

Council:
Well, I get a lot of calls from my constituency regarding some of the same issues that Bishop Royal raised and then as a Council member, sometimes people want to know where do I really stand, but I'm one of those persons that does not straddle the fence. So, if the city is wrong then I side with the community and if they are opposite of then I am there. And we have had some issues and we're still having some. And we've come a long ways but we still have a long way to go in terms of race relations in the County of Pitt as well as the city of Greenville, and nationally. And we are hoping that one day we can stamp it all out but so far we have not done that in many areas.

Holloway:
John Hope Franklin who chaired the President's Commission on Race has been saying that now is the time to talk about these issues, when it is not perceived or really evident that you have major problems. So, when and if it occurs, you've talked through these kinds of things. And while there seems to be disparity we will talk about these perceptions and realities but we have our first comment or question. Sir, go right ahead.

M:
Yes, my name is Gary Lee and I'm a member of Phillipi Church and I have a question because if you listen to Mayor Jenkins and you ask her about the race relations in Greenville she will tell you that the quality of life has increased and it is better. But if you listen to Bishop Royal he will tell you that we have issues. And Councilwoman Council can bear that out as well as she said she pretty much goes on the side of right or wrong. My question would be what are we doing to solve the problems and, Mayor, are you in a position or have thought about maybe appointing a panel of people that can go out and see the issues. Because I know that there are issues and you are saying that there are no issues so at s some point we need to come to happy medium and get some kind of panel to address and go out and see some concerns because if Bishop Royal is here saying that there are problems and if Councilwoman Council, being on the City Council is telling you that there are problems, at some point you might say "well, maybe something is going on, let's investigate this thing and see what we can do to eliminate. So if you can address that I sure would appreciate it.

Jenkins:
Now, I'm not implying that there are no problems. Always things can be better. I don't know that you have to say that you are satisfied, but I would have to say that I'm generally pleased with where we've come. I'm a bit older than these people on the panel and so I come from a different perspective. From a segregated environment as I was growing up, and the years that I've been in Greenville I've witnessed, with my children, integration well done, I believe, in the schools. Again, that is my perspective. And as mayor I am very proud of Greenville and like to look at all the positive things. I think that the way we can progress is with such panels as this and in partnership. I will have to say that while Reverend Royal and I say we may see things differently, I feel that we have a good working relationship. I feel very welcome anywhere in this city and we have done such things as this young man has suggested. Anytime I'm invited to go and be on a panel myself I try to be a part of that and to be a good role model, if you will, to other citizens. I do believe that Greenville has, for an Eastern North Carolina municipal community who has gone from an agrarian society and done it well, I think, into becoming our area in all ways, we are doing it well. I think. That is not to say that there aren't things to be concerned about.

Royal:
I think one of the examples of the ways we've all tried to work together was the coming together of a committee to talk about, perhaps, looking at police brutality a couple of years ago. From that gathering have come about a community review committee whose responsibility it is to periodically talk to the chief and to report to the city council about the conduct and what the committee is hearing from the community. My basic problem, and it is well documented, was that I didn't think we had gone far enough to establish the kind of watchdog committee that actually would be a commission or a board that would really take a serious look at brutality as it relates especially to the Wetts side of Greenville, because that is where it is determined that a great deal of crimes are committed. I thought there should have been an, at least, police board or commission that would take the chief to task if there were in fact some problems of police brutality in the city of Greenville. So, while I applaud the city for at least creating a committee to at least meet with the chief and the council, I thought we could have gone much, much further in creating a board that would really look at the conduct of the police, because basically what you have now is the police policing the police. And anyplace you have that, and you look at the history of race relations in the South, you are going to have inequity as it relates to how justice is meted out. And so we were hoping to see a board come about or a commission versus a simple committee that meets with the chief and reports to them.

Holloway:
Let's talk about that committee after we get another comment or question from our audience. Go right ahead, Sir.

M:
Hello, Professor King Meadows from East Carolina, Political Science. I was wondering if there is a formal requirement of council members or city employees or county employees to undergo cultural sensitivity training as a way of getting rid of these misperceptions between the races.

Holloway:
Did the committee address that at all, this committee that reports to the chief on cultural sensitivity or training, these issues?

Council:
Not that I'm aware of. We don't have one, we certainly do need one and I think that would help because, like the mayor was saying, you know, how she feels, but then we have people in the department that don't necessarily practice what we set policy to do and that is the issue. A lot of times, you know, we really feel good about things and we'll say everything is going okay, but then if we are not there on a daily basis, because we hear from employees entirely different kinds of things sometimes. But yet, we know we've got a great city manager and he's doing the best he can, but then he has some department heads or some people within those, the lower level employees may be doing some things. And so that is, with, in any type setting, and that is where the issues really are. So, we can really clean house and we can make sure that everyone is doing the right thing then it would be much better. And as far as the schools are concerned, which she touched on a little bit, is that, you know, there's racism there, you know, when you see, we talked about the improvement from years ago when she was younger and all of that. But when you have classrooms where you don't have, in this kind of instance, no black high school principals but you've got 50% of African American students in the school, our population does not reflect the leadership of the ones in control. Those are the kinds of issues that concerns us. And when you look at the classrooms, for instance, when you talk about institutionalized racism, you will see all the AP classes, Advanced Placement and Honors classes filled with white students and international students and then you have your lower level classes, your general and our brightest minds are always stuck in CP, which parents do not understand today, that is not where your child should be, they should be Honors and above in order to really be there to get those scholarships and be able to compete in the 21st Century. So those are the issues. So, racism exists, even though they say it right in our school systems, in our work places, and in my office for instance, there is one hundred some employees in there. But when you've got four African Americans something is wrong. Because we are qualified, we have Masters and PhDs and all of that. And so if you check out your institutions, your workplaces and all of that, when you see the disparity there, that is when, that is what you call institutionalized racism. And there is no excuses that they can't find us, we are there. Because I know plenty of people in Pitt County that have all the credentials and they are still unemployed. They can even speak several different languages, they are still unemployed. Something is wrong.

Holloway:
Mayor Jenkins, this institutional racism is not a new word and it is not unique to people in this county or this city, but all across North Carolina, across the country you hear these kinds of things. We just ran a series this fall called Africans in America to talk about where Africans in America have come from. And do you understand why many African Americans might have these perceptions and still feel about these issues, how do you differentiate that between your background and the years, you've seen the changes, but people still aren't satisfied with the changes today, how do you respond to that.

Jenkins:
Well, I think we are all of sort of in an evolution. In history it appears to me that one hundred years is not such a long time. You and I perhaps have a different perception of that. But that both women, minorities, in my view it has taken an evolutionary sort of process and if it has not moved fast enough for many, I understand that. And yet, as the mayor in this particular town, I have to be, to say that I feel that our city has done as well as any. And that I think that many people work diligently to be sure that we have, for instance, on our city council that we represent the population. Our boards and commissions, we are very careful in our selections and council members, and Ms. Council has reminded us of the necessity of being certain that we do that. And so I feel that when positive things are brought to both elected officials and our staffs attention, we work on those. That is not to say, again, that everything is perfect. But that we're trying.

Royal:
Racism is subtle and at the same time systemic that it seldom is noticed by some. Racism is so entrenched into the American fabric, especially in the South, that not only do people who are white, let's say, not only do they not always understand that it is discrimination or that it is racism, but you also have some blacks who do not understand until they are in the company of a group of other persons who have similar experiences and issues, that they've been discriminated against. I mean, it is just so entrenched in the fabric. Until you literally have to sit down in a sensitivity classes and say, "hey, this is absolutely wrong." We don't practice this in 1998, we are heading towards a new millennium and yet the vestiges of racism still exist and we're not peculiar to anybody else across the state or in the United States, it does exist. It is just subtle.

Holloway:
Well, we know there is diversity of opinion within the black community and the white community and I think Mr. ______ may be giving a different viewpoint. You are also with the Coalition Against Racism, you have a comment or question, sir?

M:
Yes, thank you. And I do feel the greatest threat is that insidious pattern of racism, whether it be in hiring, promotion or differential treatment with regard to disciplinary practices. It troubles me very much and I want to the panel to comment on at least three very dramatic incidents that, again, are not that common but they happen. And they are happening right here in Pitt County in Greenville. On January 13th, poster-sized photos of blacks being tortured and slave ships were posted near janitorial closets in the Jenkins Art Building on the ECU campus. And this is in the midst of a union campaign for the lowest paid workers, be it housekeepers or groundskeepers. In February '98, a hangman's noose was found hanging from a men's bathroom stall upon which the words KKK Klan were scrawled. This was at a Greenville cutting tool plant called Vermont American. On September 28th, 1998, Pastor Royal and I went up to the third floor of the Geology Building and found a hangman's noose hanging in full view from a professor's file cabinet. This noose had been visible from the outside hallway for over ten years. And I mention these things because they are not that common but they reflect something that is much more insidious, a pattern of tolerance for these kinds of things. And it is pretty scary for all of us, white and black, and I wonder if the panel can comment.

Holloway:
These are three things, thank you so much, that have happened in 1998 and appear to be pretty serious. Have you heard about these incidents and how do you view them, or do you view them as serious and something we ought to all be concerned about.

Jenkins:
I think it is unconscionable that those sorts of things would happen. But I do think, I'm not excusing them because they are few of them, but I think to counter that, there are equally more instances of a step forward, I feel. For instance, I think I know in this town we make it almost a policy to not only appreciate but to celebrate diversity. Not just black and white folk but we are made up now of many nationalities in Greenville and it appears to me we must respect all nationalities. That is just in the human right thing to do. And if there are exceptions, there are people, individuals who do these deplorable acts, we certainly cannot condone that in any way, and I know that we don't.

Holloway:
But what happens when, has the campus itself done anything about it, other incidents, do leaders in the white community come out and speak against that and what is done to people who are the perpetrators of this?

Royal:
I can tell you, excuse me, ma'am, I'm disappointed with the amount of comments from white Greenville, primarily because I have just assumed that in 1998 that there would be a greater degree of outrage with these things, especially on a campus of higher learning. I was incensed when I was asked by Don Cavalini, and he was Chairman of the Department, had a hangman's noose hanging there and a night worker who is African American so afraid that he would not dare even speak about it. This existed in public view for ten years. To me it was a reminder to any African American who crossed the professor that they had a problem. If I were to go deeper into the particular case. I was also incensed by the fact that after arriving on that campus within five to ten minutes, after ten years that noose was taken away and we've not seen it again. And the only concern that one of the professors had that we addressed on that morning was whether or not we were going to take it to the media. Not about how many person's of color who had clean that hall, pass by that door, go inside that door, be humiliated every night and clean that professor's office, the kind of trauma that these African Americans must have been under for the last ten years. The only concern that the assistant professor had was whether or not we were going to the media. We said the problem has dissipated, as far as the Coalition was concerned, it was no longer a problem. But we're still working with the African Americans who are afraid because, while that has been removed, the symbolism hasn't been removed.

Council:
And the students too. I mean, I don't know how many geology students there are, but I would wonder what type treatment with that type mentality would these students receive in their classes or, if not in those classes, the friends of these people teaching other kinds of courses or curriculums that the students may be involved in. So, I was disappointed to hear about it.

Holloway:
Let's talk about in a few minutes how the history of Eastern North Carolina and this area, and you talked about how far we've come, Mayor, still influence these actions today. But lets go to our microphone once again. Go ahead, sir.

M:
My name is Naim Akbar and I'm a resident student at ECU, undergraduate. And listening to the comments about systemic racism and discrimination, you can take the comments that are being made about the city of Greenville and place them in the middle of the campus of East Carolina University and it is the same. You have minority students on that campus who are afraid to talk about issues and deal with issues that threaten their very survival, things like the disbanding of minority scholarships on the campus because there might be a protest from those who are against affirmative action. We are talking about a lack of minority administrators, I mean, people that really have power to make changes for minority students on the campus. We're talking about a department called Student Development which is supposed to help students through the rocky course that they have on the University having a counseling department with eight counselors and no African American counselor. And I'm a minority peer mentor and I know that we sometimes need to refer our students to counseling. But you are talking about an 18-year-old who is not very comfortable and/or does not relate to a counselor that is not their cultural background and experience.

Holloway:
Mr. Akbar, do you have a question, because you are giving us a lot of issues that we can address but... Akbar: Yes, my question, my question, my question is how much influence does the city of Greenville have on the ECU campus or vice versa, is ECU a reflection of the city of Greenville or is Greenville a reflection of ECU?

Holloway:
Okay, we have just three minutes so we want to address that and then talk about this history impact. What is the relationship ECU, I know, is obviously a major employee here, but do you want to talk about, address the relationship between those issues on the campus versus the city and what the relationship is to those two?

Jenkins:
Well, I think as far as policy is concerned, we in municipal government don't have any real jurisdiction over that, as well as over county policies. We are a municipal mayor and city council, does those services, provides those which municipalities do and while we are concerned, I pretty well have my hands full thinking about Greenville. I am learning, frankly, tonight, because I'm not aware of those dire things or them being as dire as being presented here. Last night we had Halloween in this city, which I'm sure you have heard of and thousands of students coming downtown on a Saturday night after a game, we were a bit concerned, it was a rather precarious time, but I saw students of all nationalities, black and white and other nationalities mingling, perhaps too many of them, in the street. But things went very well. I went down and stood till 2:00 o'clock or so.

Holloway:
Well, let's just talk about this in just two minutes....

Jenkins:
I don't see the things that they are seeing is what I'm saying.

Council:
The town and gown relationship that the mayor has and then recently the Chancellor called us to be a part of his strategic planning at ECU and this is the time that I think that even though we don't make the policies there, we should be able to articulate those policies somewhat, that are coming from our constituency base, so maybe this is how we can say to them that this is nonsense, these things are happening, we are hearing about it and it doesn't make Greenville look good because we are the city and what goes on here reflects all of us.

Holloway:
Let me just, we have a minute but this area has a unique history in terms of the relationship of the rest of North Carolina in terms of having a great disparity between income, black and white and education and so forth. And that is our history. Can someone address that very briefly.

Royal:
Well, of course, as you know, Greenville and Pitt County, as far as the hub is concerned, is the exception, that the income ratio as it relates to other poorer counties are probably greater and that is basically why people are migrating. But it seems to me that Greenville being the largest city and being the hub has an obligation to lead the field as it relates to race relations and in other areas. It is sad to say that Greenville is a part of Pitt County that continuously has a high mortality rate when it looks at children being born and dying, per thousand, when it looks at the poor birth rate of kids, when it looks at its educational system how we are rated lower, sometimes, than state and national averages. When we look at the police department this year, while it may be an aberration, but we have 25% crime and is higher than the state and national. That is a concern.

Holloway:
That is a concern and we've run out of time is a concern too. Well, we want to thank you so much for participating and thanks to our audience too and we are going to continue with this discussion next week. And let me urge you to continue watching, we continue with part 2 on Black Issues Forum. We'd like to encourage you to visit our Website. The address is on your screen. Call us at the number or fax us with your comments or questions. I'm Jay Holloway, thank you so very much for joining us on Black Issues Forum here in Asheville. You have a blessed evening and a good night.