Holloway:
Tonight another Town Hall Meeting, this time in Eastern North Carolina on the campus of Elizabeth City State University, next on Black Issues Forum. [MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to another episode of Black Issues Forum, tonight another Town Hall Meeting. We're in Elizabeth City, North Carolina on the campus of Elizabeth City State. I'm Jay Holloway and welcome to Black Issues Forum. Tonight we're going to talk about racial issues again, race relations, this time perhaps as it reflects from a small community and we'll compare that with other communities across the state. We have a distinguished panel here tonight and a full house here on the campus of Elizabeth City State University, a studio audience. And we thank you for joining us. Let me first introduce our guest to you. First tonight, Reverend Whitty Bass, he is pastor of Canaan Memorial Presbyterian Church. Reverend Bass, thank you for joining us. Also, Dr. Deborah Fontaine, she is Vice Chancellor for Student Affairs at Elizabeth City State University. Thank you, Dr. Fontaine, for joining us. And last but not least, Raymond Rivers who is President of the Pasquotank County NAACP. Thank you, Mr. Rivers, for joining us.

Rivers:
Good to be here.

Holloway:
I'm excited. And thank you, studio audience, as well, for joining us, and those at home. We've been to several communities across the state talking about race relations and this is an opportunity to see what is going on here in Elizabeth City, see what you've been doing, what kind of historical perspective on race relations, and is there any difference in what may be perceived in a smaller eastern community compared to other areas. Let's start off and ask that general question, do you perceive it being different here in terms of race relations in Elizabeth City as opposed to some of your other neighbors around the state. Anyone like to start off with that?

Rivers:
Well, I always put my foot in it. I think in a small town as compared to a Metropolitan area, you can see vividly the good ol' boy system that still prevails that prevents a relationship of the races socially. But by all means, economically, we are still a disenfranchised group of people. And I think you can see it very vividly in a smaller town, as compared to a metropolitan area.

Holloway:
So do you see that good ol' boy network, does it spill over to the campus community or are you contained from that, Dr Fontaine, on campus community like this.

Fontaine:
Well, perhaps in some respects we might be a little bit isolated from some of the things that are going on in the larger community. But I think even on our campus it speaks to some of the same, we have some of the same kinds of issues on our campus that I'm sure are being experienced outside in the larger community.

Holloway:
Reverend Bass, from that larger community point of view, what have you seen. Does the white community perceive that there are racial issues and problems here in Elizabeth City.

Bass:
I'm not sure perception is the right word. Acknowledgment might be the word I think what you have in a smaller community, the positive side of it is you have a better opportunity because of the closeness of people, the proximity of people, the history of people, to address the issue of you choose. I also think that most small communities in the South you also have a history that you are trying to overcome. And this community is no different with that in terms of history. We have very much a segregated community here socially, on a lot of levels. 11:00 Sunday morning is still the most segregated hour in this community, and that is across the board.

Holloway:
That is not unique to Elizabeth City. Not to North Carolina either.

Bass:
No, it is not. And you have a lot of people of good will here who are attempting to have it be different for the future. But socially, it is still very much a segregated society except for a lot of attempts to have it be different.

Holloway:
What do we do about that. Are we satisfied with that in this community and in this state, with still having the good ol' boy network, the segregation. What do we do about it? In forums like this there is an opportunity to talk about it and of course our hope is that we can't resolve these issues in a program like this, but we hope people will at least be more thoughtful and think about their attitudes and perceptions of these issues and what we can do about it. But what are you doing about these issues here in Elizabeth City, what is the NAACP doing about it?

Rivers:
We have recognized that until, until the bind of economics or those things that are economically orientated, until we, until the economic picture is released to the African American community, only until that time will social compatibility take place, will these other relationships that we talk about take place. It is all hinged around economics.

Holloway:
And we are going to have a part 2 which we are going to talk a lot about that in our second segment next week. But let me ask, I would imagine that Elizabeth City State University is one of the larger employers here in this community. And so I guess we couldn't say that that economic part is deprived because this is an historic black college. I would like for some of the students to come to the microphone and talk about that. How do you see the students in this college community dealing with those issues. And how have you dealt with it?

Fontaine:
I think one of the things that would be very helpful is that our students would get involved. I think people in the larger community need to get involved. It is important to have dialogue and discussion and it is also important, I think, as citizens of this community to participate in the governing process, to participate in elections and to really just get involved so your voice can be heard, so you can determine what the issues are and by doing that I think folks, including our students can have an impact in the solutions to whatever the problems might happen to be.

Holloway:
Last spring you and Reverend Bass hosted a workshop in response to President Clinton and John Hope Franklin's race initiative. And actually that is part of how this series came about, in terms of these Town Hall Meetings, in response to that. Could you all share with our audience what came out of those discussions.

Bass:
I think one of the things that it revealed was the tension not only in this community but in general between the students, between the commuting population and the residential population. That was a very strong issue in that workshop. The tension between those African American students who had come here seeking an historically black college experience to discover that there was a growing population of white students. I think what you have is an evolving university that is beginning to change and there is uneasiness about that and there's paranoia and suspicion within the African American community about what its future might look like if more and more white students begin to be here, and faculty. That's not an unusual experience but I do think the administration is sensitive to that and that particular workshop was an attempt to begin to look at that, to test what some of the feelings were and to see how we might deal with it in the future.

Holloway:
Well, that is a good point and I would like to thank this campus and particularly your Chancellor because that is one of the things he said to me, you know, is "Jay, if you can't have this kind of discussion in an academic community, where can you have it?" So, I would like to thank Elizabeth City State University for hosting this and Chancellor Laburnum. But tell me this, I heard the students talking as we were coming in, before we were on the air, about this issue, that there are some concerns. And what have you heard from them and I hope that they will come and share what they said earlier to the microphone about some of these concerns. What are those concerns, though, specifically. How are the students dealing with that. The historically black colleges and university system has probably been more open to diversification than the larger ones. And how have students dealt with the larger growing white population on campus.

Fontaine:
I would probably agree with Reverend Bass that when we had our forum last spring I think the students are dealing with it, I think they accept it. I don't think there is a tremendous amount of racial hostility on our campus, but I think there are some concerns. There are students that would like for this to be a campus that reflects 100% African American students while at the same time they recognize that we are going through a stage of change. They are wrestling with that change and perhaps trying to understand it, understand the reasons for it and perhaps what some of the outcomes might be with respect to that change. But I think in general the dynamics between our students, whether they be commuting students or residential students, black students or white students, it appears to me to be relatively positive, even though I think there are some specific issues and questions that students have about each other.

Holloway:
Well, we may have a specific issue and question now. Ma'am, please go right ahead with your comment or question.

F:
Hello, my name is Dina Mory and I'm a sophomore here at Elizabeth City State University. And I am for the change as having more Caucasian students studying here at Elizabeth City State University, but my concern was before the program, when we were conversing, was that the Caucasian students are not really dominant at different extracurricular activities such as football games, basketball games, whatever. And I feel that if they are prevalent there then they are showing their support of the school. And one lady sitting beside me today who is Caucasian told me that a lot of the Caucasian students don't know about different activities that are going on on campus or that they are older students who have children and families to take care of. But I feel as if the positiveness of the Caucasians being here is accepted, especially by me. But I feel like the should be more conducive, as far as extracurricular activities.

Holloway:
Let me ask you a question, the larger traditionally white institutions in the UNC system have specific initiatives to recruit black students, supposedly to help them feel comfortable on campus. Do the historically black colleges in the UNC system do the same for white students or how does that occur and is there some encouragement there to get them involved within the make up and the fabric of the larger student population.

Fontaine:
I think from a scholarship standpoint we have what we call an incentive scholarship program that is really targeted for all students that live in north eastern North Carolina which allows a student to come to Elizabeth City State University. We also have several grants that are supported by the state, minority presence grants, that encourages white students to come to HBCU's and black students to go to minority institutions. I think that is discussed with black or white students at either one of those institutions when they are seeking to come, so that there is some additional financial incentives available for those students that would like to do it. I would like to respond just in part to the question that the student raised. I think what we have on our campus at Elizabeth City State University are two different types of populations. We have a residential population that is predominantly African American. We have a commuter population which is probably 50% Caucasian and 50% African American, but the profile of that commuter student is a different kind of profile. And the student was right, these students are working parents. They have kids. They may or may not be interested in our student life as it relates to a boarding students, but we are taking some initiatives some initiatives to hire some folks to specifically intervene and work with our commuter population to try to get them more involved in campus life, find out what they want.

Holloway:
I'm going to talk about those dynamics later between the community and the college, but let's go to another person there. If you could come to the microphone, please, sir, and give us your comment or question.

M:
Uh, yes, I'm Michael Robertson, a junior here at Elizabeth City State and the concern that I was made aware of that I've had people talk to me about that a growing white population would decrease the ethnicism...uh

Fontaine:
Ethnicity

M:
Ethnicity, thank you, of the school. And I don't think that would really reduce that as long the school is producing programs that are strengthening the values of the African American. So as long as the school is participating in providing those types of activities, I don't think a growing white population would really do anything negative to the school.

Holloway:
Okay, anybody want to comment to that, how does that relate to the larger community and the university's recruitment of whites versus the city looking at how ECSU fits in in a larger white community. I think you've got two different issues going on here. We were in Greenville last week and one of the interesting things, that is a larger city in eastern North Carolina, but they are still considered like a college town. We're still in eastern North Carolina but is this really considered a college town and how does the community deal with that and how does the college community deal with this issue he raised?

Bass:
I think you'd get a lot of different opinions on that, Jay. I think part of the tension in this community as I have experienced it, around this university, a the evolution of Elizabeth City takes place, its own growth and people moving in here to retire, a lot of, much more tourism. This University has been here a long time. It has been a vital part of this community for a long time but that hasn't always been recognized by the larger community. And I think you can make a case that it has been ignored by the larger community for many years. But now that it is a legitimate part of the university system and able to get much more funding and grants because of that, the larger community is taking notice and you can be cynical about the reasons for that and I think some of the people on this campus are appropriately cynical about that. But the question for this community, I think, is whether we can affirm and embrace this academic institution and make it the best university we can for whoever needs a quality education in this community and to be able to reassure the African American community that the white community is not interested in being in control, in pulling the strings for what is happening out here. I think it is vitally important that this university retain a historic black ethnicity influence. I think it has a lot to teach the larger community.

Holloway:
Let's deal with that issue in relation to what he brought up because that is a bigger issue that people can identify with across the country, with historically black colleges. And let me ask you, Mr. Rivers, from the NAACP's point of view, there's two schools of thought in the black community about integration and segregation. Some people from the larger community view these historically black colleges as still form of segregation. But, you know, Reverend Bass here says that it is good, we should maintain its ethnicity. How do you think the larger community deals with that issue. Do you think they are concerned, as this gentleman is, about the campus losing its ethnicity if it recruits other whites and then how does NAACP, how do the blacks in the community deal with that.

Rivers:
You first have to define who is the larger community. Let's be specific here. Who is the larger community. I think Reverend Bass alluded to that. If I am a resident in the community, who are you referring to, Reverend Bass, in terms of...

Bass:
That's a good point.

Rivers:
I could very easily say that African Americans make up 52% of the population, that African Americans are the larger community. However, I'm not so sure that's the community you are referring to.

Bass:
Good point. If you want to go by numbers, I probably shouldn't have used the term larger. If you are talking about who is in control of the institutions and power systems of this community, you are talking about a white culture that has borne most of the influence and power and held onto that. River: Okay, so if that be the case then what is going on, the question I would propose to you, then, would be what assurances are being made to the African American community that the larger the white population that grows in the University, that that same control factor is not going to kick in and control.

Bass:
Well, you are touching on the heart of matter now and that is the paranoia and the anxiety and the mistrust that exist in the community. And it has a history. And the question is whether all of us are going to work to make sure there is a way to assure this community that we value its African American heritage and tradition and want to maintain that and at the same time that we'll be able to offer a quality education to the young people of this community, whoever they are, who would choose to come here. But it goes back to the whole question that we are here tonight to discuss, as far as I'm concerned, and that is race relations in America and the mistrust and the fear and the anxiety that exist. It is not a unique question wherever historically black colleges are being threatened by evolving changing student bodies.

Rivers:
I agree, but however, in order to reduce those "anxieties" those fears, we also have to be realistic as to, in order to solve any problem that occurs or we perceive that is occurring we also have to look at, realistically, what is going on right now. I mean what is, what is, in order to bring about a change. And, you know, we generalize a lot, we generalize a lot and are not specific to the problem. And when we do that all we are doing is covering up the problems, covering up the problems, and we're not really facing the problems in order to be able to establish a dialogue with one another, to arrive at some solutions. And I think that is what happens. People in the community, that is why I ask again, when we talk about the community, I hear the people say the Elizabeth City community, I have to ask them "what part of the community are you talking about when you say Elizabeth City community?" When you say greater community, is it a black community, the white community, the religious community, the public housing community. You know, they have perceptions of the university.

Holloway:
Time is about to run out here, let's get another comment very quick because you touched on a very good issue but I want to get this gentleman's comment or question.

M:
How are you doing. My name is Albert Walker. I am a sophomore here at Elizabeth City State University. On the subject of race relations I think that Elizabeth City State, we're in a unique situation. We are an historically black university and we have a growing white population. I think this is an advantage to, I guess a model to the whole world in essence. I think we have the opportunity to show the world that we can implement programs and something so that we can come together and be one. I think we need to progress and work on what can we do with the relations part. Don't get me wrong, with all due respect, I understand the community and all the other stuff, but we need to get to relations and we have a unique situation here and I think we need to hit on that unique situation and some suggestions on how we can implement programs so that....

Holloway:
Thanks so much, I'm going to ask Denise Wimberly to come to the microphone for just a second because if you can come to the microphone, Denise, we'd like to get some comments. We've touched on some specific issues here about trust, anxiety, relations and Denise Wimberly is here not from this community but she is a diversity trainer for corporate organizations and has been listening in on this discussion and I'd like to get some of your comments as to what you have seen in this community, what you have heard and can you share with us some analysis you might want to make on it.

F:
I think a lot of what I've heard is a lot of what I hear across the state when dealing with racial issues. One is what Mr. Rivers brought about, saying that we have a problem with naming things. It is very difficult for us to name a thing. We'd rather cover it up with political correctnesses is the most obvious thing we have now. Instead of calling things what they are, then you can begin to deal with what the problems are. It is sort of like not wanting to call cancer cancer, but you want to treat it like it is a cold sore. We need to call it what it is and then we can look at what we need to do. I don't know, I've been to this community a couple of times doing race awareness workshops on the campus, but what I see is a talking around the issue. But there is an important thing about talking around the issues, it is because we've never gotten to the point that we can call things as they are. And if we can sit down and have some safe environment that someone is there to deal with real pain, real feelings that people have around these issues, but then take us in an organized step by step way so we can get to the root cause of the problem. I think this forum is a great thing that you've done as well as the forum that you did in the spring. But we still tend to be very politically correct. Very much dancing around issues and not dealing with what communities we are talking about, what real issues. And we have to also understand that if racism or racial problems didn't benefit anyone, they would be eradicated. There is a benefit to racial division.

Holloway:
We thank you so much. And we know there is a benefit. And I want to thank this audience and thank the panel, specifically, for joining us. Time has completely run out that quick already. And we're going to have a part 2, we want you to come back next week and we will continue with this discussion and we still have some more comments from the audience. But thank you so much for joining us and thank you so much on this dialogue. I want to thank you all and we thank the studio audience and you all at home for watching. And I want to encourage you to think about being engaged in the issues of race relations, think about your attitudes, your behaviors, the consequences of your actions. And as Denise said, identify the issue and attack it head on and call it really what it is. We want to encourage you to contact us. We'd like to encourage you to visit our Website. The address is on your screen or call us or fax us with your comments or questions. So, this has been another Town Hall Meeting in Elizabeth City, thanks to Elizabeth City State University. I'm Jay Holloway, you have a blessed evening and a good night.