Holloway:
Another town hall meeting, this time in our capital city of North Carolina, on the campus of NC State. A town hall meeting on race relations in Raleigh next on Black Issues Forum. [PAUSE: MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host. Tonight, we're in Raleigh, North Carolina, on the campus of NC State for the first in two parts of a town hall meeting on race relations. Tonight we'll be talking about diversity in higher education. We have a distinguished panel as well as a full, standing room only, audience. And so we're looking forward to this discussion today. Also I want to take the time to personally thank you for viewing this program. It's first airing on holiday season, so we thank you so much for watching and staying up late to watch the program. First, let me introduce the Chancellor of NC State, Chancellor Mary Anne Fox. Thank you so very much for hosting this meeting and participating and showing your leadership in this tough issue.

Fox:
Our pleasure, Jay.

Holloway:
Thank you, Chancellor Fox. Also, Dr. Graham Watt, he's executive assistant to the president at St. Augustine's College. Dr. Watt, thank you for participating.

Watt:
Pleased to be here.

Holloway:
And last but not least, Ricky Livingston. He's a student here at NC State, an applied sociology major with a minor in African American studies. You're also the Vice President of Diversity here and you have some initiatives going on at NC State. We also have a diversity expert in our audience tonight who will be talking with you a little later on, Al Vivian, President of Basic, Inc., one of the oldest cultural diversity training firms in the country. Let's start right off in our discussion. We're talking about diversity, but affirmative action is a real tough issue. But as we think about that, let me talk about something that's been recent in the news here in the UNC system. And Chancellor Fox, I'd like for you to first address. The latest statistics show that there's a decline in Black enrollment at the historically Black colleges in the systems, but yet the enrollment is going up at the historically while institutions, like NC State. What does that mean to NC State and to our system as a whole in North Carolina.

Fox:
Well, the improvement in Black enrollment at NC State, we believe is a very positive indicator that our campus is becoming more accessible and allowing opportunity to be more broadly available to those who come to us. We're very interested in student success and we are very pleased to see the increasing Black enrollment year after year. Of course, part of the mission of NC State is in parallel with those of our sister schools in the University of North Carolina and we strongly support the historically Black colleges. We think that diversity is as important in achieving those, that institutional balance and achieving student balance within those colleges as well.

Holloway:
NC State is the largest, in terms of enrollment, in our state and the Black enrollment is very large as well.

Fox:
Almost 10%.

Holloway:
Ten percent. And Dr. Watt, you're at St. Augustine's College, an historically Black college here in Raleigh, a private institution. How has that trend in North Carolina effected the historically Black, liberal arts private colleges, specifically St. Augustine's College.

Watt:
I'm not sure that the increase in Blacks has adversely effected a decrease enrollment at the Black institutions. I say that because we are in the process, in the midst now, of increasing our standards and broadening our recruitment base. Traditionally, at least St. Augustine's College has gone up and down the east coast to get it's students. But now we are going across the country to get an increase in standards and get a better quality of students. And hopefully, those students who go to NC State, for whatever reason, will come back.

Holloway:
I know that enrollment at the historically Black colleges in the UNC system appears to be down with Black students for the first time and I understand that it is also at St. Augustine's this year. But also about 43%, I believe, of the Black students enrolled are at the traditionally white schools, at least in the UNC system. How has St. Augustine's College dealt with that, though your enrollment probably went down for another reason, I believe.

Watt:
Our enrollment went down because we increased the standards.

Holloway:
Right.

Watt:
And of course, we expected that decline in enrollment. We upped the standards because traditionally Black institutions have had the feeling that we had an obligation to educate every Black boy and girl who came in our doors. Of course, that's utopia and we can't do that because the resources required on both ends of the spectrum are just too broad. So I'm happy that we are increasing standards and bring it back into we get a better quality of student.

Holloway:
Ricky, from a student point of view, you chose to come the NC State and you're very involved in diversity. How do you view this whole diversity issue, Black and white, Black and white enrollment at historically Black colleges, traditionally white colleges? What's your view on this?

Livingston:
For myself, diversity issues, coming to NC State, the reason why I chose NC State over HBCU was basically financial. HBCUs are outstanding colleges and I even got accepted to Morehouse, which I think is one of the best schools in the country. But financial-wise, I couldn't afford it. The GI bill, other things that I had for getting loans were more of my base with NC State University. But even the family at NC State is a very welcoming institution. The African American community that's there is set up where you feel like you're a part of something, not only with the African American faculty and staff and the students, but also the broader students across the way and the faculty, outside of our community as African Americans. And so I feel lots of us are choosing NC State or other schools of that nature, 1) finance and 2) those schools that have opened to other schools outside of the majority class are saying that we're there for you, we're not just going to put you to the side, and working with you just as much as we work with the other students.

Holloway:
I want to move the discussion to affirmative action. I know that you have lead debates on campus about that issue and I want you to think about that. But Chancellor Fox, you've come to this state from outside of the state. The President of the system is from California where they've already implimented affirmative action. North Carolina may be one of the next states that has to go through this. How do you think that affirmative action and higher education will effect NC State?

Fox:
Jay, you're right about that. I came from the University of Texas, which was adversely effected in terms of our ability to recruit underrepresented groups by the Hopwood court decision, where we were forbidden to use race as a factor for admissions or financial aid. Really the lesson that we learned from the Hopwood experience of Texas I think has relevance to many states around the United States. In particular, we learned that it's not possible simply to focus on only financial aid and admissions decisions. We have to think more broadly. We have to recruit more strongly. We have to be much more receptive to responding to how students have developed as people. We have to be less reliant on standardized testing in admissions decisions. We have to work hard with the public schools to develop a cadre of students that can take advantage of the opportunities that our best universities offer and we have to work very hard with our alumni to make a circle from strong recruiting through appropriate financial aid and admissions decisions through success for all of our students who become alumni and come back to their communities and complete a circle. So it's much more complex than it used to be, but our major goal is access and opportunity and to do so by assuring student success at every step along the way.

Holloway:
Let's move this to the heart of the matter, in terms of just human relations, Black and white. From the student point of view, how have the white students perceived and what has the discussion been in your debates on this affirmative action and how is the relation?

Livingston:
Most of the time, most students will approach, especially the white students, they will approach it from a sense of merit. Some of them feel that affirmative action allows individuals of the minorities or the groups that come into this institution not being qualified to be there. It takes up seats other people who supposedly should be there. But that assumption is so erroneous, it's ridiculous. The ideal is affirmative action is there to allow a pool or an avenue of people to come into play that any institution, be it a government or whatever, who are qualified but had the opportunity to play in that field. And so what we usually have to do with a lot of students is educate them about what affirmative action is and isn't. The lay persons, the lay people's idea of affirmative action is a play used mostly by politicians and also a lot of conservatives to try to wean out the ______ of affirmative action. And then also the other thing that really worries a lot of us, when we focus so much on affirmative action, is that they always deal strongly with race and affirmative action, gender-wise, has effected women a lot better than it has men, especially white women, who have gained the most from affirmative action. But usually when they debate affirmative action issue comes to play, you hardly anything about gender. So one wanted to be addressed right, defined right and then dealt with with the reality of how it effects the system, not lay people or political bias being thrown into play.

Holloway:
I would like to invite some of the students to really come to the microphone and one of the things I know that the Chancellor is interested in is how do we get a diverse group of people to come together. We apparently have a diverse group of people here today, but I don't know what all of your opinions are. But I would really would like to hear someone who is opposed to affirmative action to come to the microphone. I know this is Abe Jones that is here now. [Laughter] You want to start off with a, and you don't necessarily have to talk about that but I wanted to prime the audience about that.

M:
_____ fit your description.

Holloway:
Right. [Laughter] Go right ahead.

M:
I did have a question for the panelist -- and they don't have to answer it now, they can answer later -- one thing that I've seen missing in the general media is an apt definition from the progressive side of what affirmative action is and I'd like to know from each of you what you're definition of it is. Thank you.

Holloway:
Watch out. This guy's an attorney. [Laughter] But people often get affirmative action confused with quotas. Who wants to attack that first?

Fox:
Well, what I could, I could start by saying what it is not. It is not quotas. It is not preferential treatment of any particular group. In fact, I think because of that confusion that sometimes it's not so good to use the term "affirmative action." It's more important to understand what the goal is to be accomplished by looking more broadly in terms of merit. So long as one has standards and one defines the populations above which you would expect success, then I think that one wants to look broadly at characteristics that lead to that kind of success. And that means being open to numbers of students across racial divides, across gender, as Ricky mentioned, but other kinds of diversity as well, international students, students that have different orientations, different lifestyles as well.

Holloway:
Ricky, do you -- personal question -- do you have personal, social friends that you can really talk honestly about these racial issues and affirmative action on the campus that's diverse like this?

Livingston:
Yes. I work with a lot of different student groups, Asian Student Association, Native American Student associations, various Indian students and all the African American organizations. And a lot of times we do sit down and have some real strong debates, but the question is about what it is and what it isn't. And even groups like the BGLA, Bisexual, Gay and Lesbian Association, we discuss the ideal of affirmative action is not put there to give anyone an upmanship over any one else, but it's put there basically for a level playing field. It's a tool for access. Point blank simple. And you know, a lot of students are beginning to understand that and not being caught up in the games that are being played about in our country, especially with the certain individuals in the west coast. [Laughter]

Holloway:
Dr. Watt, is that the same kind of thing going on at historically Black colleges or is it not a big debatable issue.

Watt:
Well, since, being a Black institution, we are the recipients of what is missing. We believe that we have a social obligation to impress upon our students that they have to be educated and qualified to meet demands of an ever-changing technological and economical work force. We encourage them to talk, to understand what their own culture might be, accept those cultures of others and be able to dialogue along those lines. As long as there is inequality and freedom that's not across the board, injustice, we need affirmative action to, as he said, to have a level playing field.

Holloway:
I want us to talk later about that but we do have someone at the microphone right now. Go right ahead, Sir, you have a comment or a question?

M:
Yes, good evening. I happen to believe that affirmative action in higher education is actually destroying historically Black colleges in terms of the resource bases and in terms of human resources, caliber of students as well as faculty. How would you all address the idea that as historically white colleges across the nation reach out to actively recruit Black students that it does not drain the high caliber of Black students that would normally go to historically Black colleges, as well as the siphoning off of Black professors, who are in actually short supply across the nation? How would you address that in terms of Black colleges not being dismantled because of affirmative action?

Holloway:
Who wants to attack that? You've already kind of answered that that yours changed but not because of that. Who wants to...?

Watt:
I believe, you know, I partly agree with his, this is a free country. This is America that we live in. A student has a right to go to any school he wants to. The historically Black institutions are important to us because we feel that we know our people, know our kids better than someone else, so we are better able to educate them. One of the problems, I think, that came with segregation is the fact that, for an example, when I finished the 12th grade, I mean, I could read on the 12th grade level. I mean, you can't really say that today about our kids because it comes from the commitment or the lack of commitment of those who are doing the teaching.

Holloway:
Chancellor Fox, let me ask you, when Dr. Watt says that, our audience probably can accept it and understand what he's saying, but if a white person were to say that, would that be considered racist, "We understand our people better"? Do you think whites view, some people view historically Black colleges as still a form of segregation, separate but equal. How do you deal with that? What's your view?

Fox:
I think the existence of historically Black colleges is just one expression of diversity. It provides choice for students. Those who want to and feel more comfortable in that environment should surely have that opportunity. I think, in fact, in the state of North Carolina, this will be a mute point, because we're going to be expecting such enrollment growth for all our institutions that the capacity of our historically Black colleges is going to be a vital ingredient of how we'll be able to handle the increased enrollment that we would expect by 2010. What we need to do is to provide them with the resources to provide quality programs that have very high standards.

Holloway:
Let me just say before we go to the next comment. Bill Friday, former President of the system, said that we can't afford to close any school, Black or white, with times like this. Sir, you have a comment or question, please?

M:
Well, my name is Ralph McKinney. I got to commend you for having the courtesy of being before you. But I've lived too long through Jim Crow and through Jim Holshouser, Jim Hunt, Jim Martin and Jim Hunt and I find that the racism that I have met the last 40 years has been from within the business community. And it's a privilege to do business in North Carolina, but what has occurred is women and minorities must work for less and pay more and then live in an environment that wouldn't want an elected official to live in. The educational opportunities for success has been voided -- you know that "general welfare" in the little Constitution. And what's occurred with the Wilmington riots, with the riots we had in the '60's is that rather than solve the problem, you allow it to become either violent or complacent and do nothing. Now in the '90's, I've worked for more than one business that would openly do that. And the only response I ever got was, don't bother us about racism, sexual abuse on the job. Now, your universities educate consumers, workers and business and government leaders. And somewhere along you've missed the mark for too long. Now, if we must live in an environment where we can't challenge and hate when we meet it, then we need to identify that so we can learn to live with it.

Holloway:
Let me ask our panel. How do we deal with that, challenging the issue of racism on both sides, up front in academic institutions, whether it's historically Black or traditionally white college.

Watt:
Well, let me address it this way. We know that in the 1960's a lot of change took place in this country. I personally believe that we as Blacks, the majority of us -- maybe not a majority but a significant number of us -- threw up our hands and we say, "Yippee, we've made it." We have equality, justice. What we failed to realize that our struggle for equality and justice is a never-ending thing in this country. The institutionalized kinds of racism that you're talking about is with us. I attended a meeting this morning where the gentleman said that in the '50's and '60's we had white water fountains and we had Colored water fountains. Very clear signs. Today, we have a different set of signs. Only the leopard has changed his stripes and we still have to fight and struggle for equality and justice in this country. And the best place to do it is in education. [INAUDIBLE]

M:
...because the people that I vote for hadn't got the courage to do so. _____________ people we vote for...

Holloway:
Okay, Sir, we can't hear you at the microphone there. The audience couldn't hear you.

M:
Well, I appreciate your courtesy. But make a difference so it's not in the next generation for my children, because I'm tired of it. If we make it a felony and we lock the bigots up and declare it a disease, at least we could treat 'em. [Applause]

Holloway:
Alright. Thank you so much for your comment. Okay, let me ask Ricky too. Ricky wants to address that and this gentlemen did pass out something here. Ricky, you want to address that real quick.

Livingston:
The gentleman brought up the idea of racism in our society and how we deal with it at the university, I would hope that -- I know some universities like NC State are implementing things of this nature, having within the classrooms, not just within courses you can take that are women's studies or African American culture or gay studies or whatever, but within the structure of the general requirements for most students -- taking courses with the understand, across gender and ethnic lines, understand what diversity is, have an understanding of what they're dealing with in their society and understanding not just the nice, social issues are about to be played, how we need to talk to one another, about how the economic game is related, how this is a money game most of the time. And it's a power game. And this is nothing light. And you will get into an institution or a job and the things that are played out are not just things on your performance but in a sense, who you are economically and where you're from. Class still has a strong thing to do with our society.

Holloway:
We're going to talk about that economic issue in Raleigh in our part two next week. But let's go back to the audience. We have a comment or question. Yes, Ma'am.

F:
Yes, as supporters of affirmative action, how do you feel about the view that affirmative action is, I guess, a sort of reverse discrimination?

Holloway:
Reverse discrimination. Our expert Al Vivian wants to respond to that real quickly. Would you like to? We only have five minutes left but if you could be quick because we do want to give your closing comments too.

Vivian:
I always get fascinated how people call it reverse discrimination when those who talk against affirmative action, they look at the rare cases when it's a white, male being discriminated against. That does happen. That's rare. But let's look at the reality. They only speak about discrimination on the rare cases when it's a white male but not the overwhelming majority of the time when people get discriminated against and it's women, Blacks, Asians, Latinos, etc. So the question is do they really care about discrimination? But do they only care about white males because that's when they speak up? If you look at reality in this country, every major system in the country is controlled by white males, whether you're talking economic, whether you're talking housing, whether you're talking education, whether you're talking anything, including the penal system. Everything in this society is controlled by white males and white males only make up 39.2% of the population. So we have to stop and ask, who's really actively affirmed in the society.

Holloway:
Thank you, Al Vivian. [Applause] Did that address your question, Ma'am?

F:
Yes, but how do you support a country that realizes that it has a problem and just compensates for it instead of trying to correct it?

Holloway:
That's a very good question. Who would like to answer that?

Fox:
Of course, part of the reason that we're trying to support diversity so strongly is because of the effect on the majority student, not only on the minority student who is brought into our community. We have to be much more inclusive and focused on success of everyone.

Holloway:
Does the next gentleman have a very quick question or comment 'cause we're going to have to conclude in just a few seconds.

M:
I'll talk really quickly. In dealing with affirmative action, I mean, obviously historically social ills in our country, it was necessary to level the playing field. My question is how do we know when to stop? That's the goal is to have it as non-necessary and the level of attainment of quality is I think what people are dealing with. I mean, some people say it's close enough, we need to stop now. Some people say obviously it's not, we need to keep going. But my question is, how do we know when to stop? Or, yeah.

Holloway:
Okay, we only have a couple of minutes. Can one of you address that and I'll ask Al Vivian to come to the mike to prepare your closing comments here. And who would like to?

Watt:
I don't think we'll ever stop because we have these subtle kinds of things that confront us now. For an example, use Blacks for an example, when we hear statistics like we're not, we're less likely to receive a home mortgage than a white. When we have a devastating drug in our country, called crack, that is definitely earmarked for Blacks. And then on the other side of the spectrum, you have something called cocaine, which is the rich man's drug. And the crimes and the punishment that is assessed for these things are so different. And so as long as these things, these kinds of things confront our society, then we have to keep fighting and struggling. And it may not happen in my lifetime, your lifetime, even our children's lifetime.

Holloway:
Well, I'll tell you what is going to happen right now. Time has run completely out. [Laughter] I know we can't solve all these issues, but hopefully, you in the audience as well as the television audience are going to be a little more thoughtful about these issues of diversity in higher education as well as affirmative action. We talked about other diversity issues. And just today --we don't talk too much our international community -- I met a gentleman from Israel, he said the real problem here is racism was going to be the downfall of America. He says racism goes both ways, Black and white. And he says it's 80% of people are really good. So I want to thank you so much for watching. Thank the audience for coming. Please contact us at the numbers and addresses on the screen. And join us next week for part two of another town hall meeting on the campus of NC State University. I'm Jay Holloway. You have a blessed evening and good night.