Holloway:
Tonight, another town hall meeting on race relations. We're in Raleigh, North Carolina again on the campus of NC State to talk about race relations and community economic development. Next on Black Issues Forum. [PAUSE: MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to another edition of Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host. We're in Raleigh, North Carolina, once again, on the campus of NC State for another town hall meeting on race relations. Tonight we're talking about community economic development in Raleigh. First of all, I'd like to thank you very much for joining us on this holiday season and taking the time to participate in this difficult and important discussion. Thank you to your standing room only studio audience.

And let me introduce you first of all to our distinguished panel. First, Aura Camacho-Marsh, she is Executive Director of the Latin American Resource Center. She also sits on the state and the city Human Relations Commission. Thank you, Aura, for being with us.

Camacho-Marsh:
Thank you.

Holloway:
Brad Thompson is on the Raleigh City Council. Brad, thank you so much for being with us.

Thompson:
Thank you, Jay.

Holloway:
And also, Mary Watson Nooe. She's a local community builder and we thank you so much for being with us, Mary Watson Nooe. And our expert for tonight, who will be commenting later on in the program on these issues is Dr. Dudley E. Flood. He's retired Associate Superintendent of Public Instruction here in North Carolina. Thank you, Dr. Flood, for being with us as well. Let's get right to the discussion. When we think about race relations, many talk about the bottom line being economics and money. In Raleigh, historically, southeast Raleigh has not grown at the rate that north Raleigh or the rest of Raleigh has. But let's talk about what is economic development first. And Mary, you and I talked about that off the mike already. Do you want to define that for us and let's see if the panelists agree?

Nooe:
Well, I think often we think of economic development in terms of recruitment of big industries or big companies to an area. But I disagree. That is a piece of it, but it is not the most important piece. The most important piece about economic development is supporting people to be entrepreneurial, to support them in developing new businesses to hire people. We don't pay enough attention to what we have and grow it. Instead, as a state, I see us or hear that we are constantly looking out there. We've got what we need. We just need to build it. We need to support those local folks and do that. For instance, a real good project that came out of the Raleigh Housing Authority, last good thing I remember -- no, I'm sorry -- that they had a project to support women to become child care workers and develop their own small businesses, that they might could look after as many as five children. Well, that's economic development. But we don't ever put that into the equation when we talk about it.

Holloway:
Brad, you represent the largely Black southeast Raleigh district here in Raleigh.

Thompson:
That's right.

Holloway:
Do these kinds of things benefit the citizens in that community?

Thompson:
Well, certainly. Economic development, particularly when you talk about community economic development, relates to all those things that makes a community sustainable, that makes it grow, so it can continue to be a place that's vital. So consequently, not only jobs but infrastructure, having the supportive system that makes community and those people who live there enjoy there. All that's part of the economic development fabric of the community. And it's particularly important for intense urban communities, like southeast Raleigh that happens to be predominantly African American. But I believe in terms of a community that has the potential, has all the elements to attract those things that makes it a great place to live in a sustainable way, that many of those elements exist within southeast Raleigh.

Holloway:
Brad, I want you to think about this question. We're going to come back to it. But every community in our state -- and we're talking to a state-wide audience -- has it's "community" that's heavily populated by Blacks and it has a reputation. And I want you to think about has that reputation changed over the years or has it been the same, and as we've talked about economic development? But let me go to Aura Camacho-Marsh. When we talk about race relations, economic development, we have a growing Latino and Hispanic community that is coming into our state, as well as into Raleigh. How does the Hispanic community look at this whole issue of race relations and economic development?

Camacho-Marsh:
Well, already, the panelists have touched on the critical area, which also, I believe, is infrastructure. We have tremendous growth of Latin American people in Wake County. Actually, Wake County is one of the largest, with the largest growth in the nation of Latin American people. And yet the infrastructure is not there to support these people living in the city. People come, arrive in a particular place, usually they have to go to the low-income areas, because they are beginning a new life. And they find themselves stuck in that place, because they find a job nearby, because you know, it's convenient, the transportation is there. And then they find themselves with all sorts of issues that relate to housing, where the landlords in many cases take advantage, you know, of these families. There is no resource really that these people can look for to move to another place, because it will be much more expensive. Already of the very expensive place that they are paying for, a very run down place, because the transportation is not there. So they have to stay there. So there are just an incredible amount of issues that relate to the structure that will not allow many families, many Latin American individuals, as well as other people from other cultural groups to really engage in the economic development process. And the cities suffer. The cities are screaming for workers.

Holloway:
So it's similar to the African American community.

Camacho-Marsh:
Very similar.

Holloway:
Let me go to the microphone now. Last week we talked about affirmative action, some of these issues and I know this gentleman wants to address that as we talk about these issues. Comment or question, Sir, please.

M:
Whether is be social, political or economical, according to the definition of affirmative action is to get a foot in the door. If there's already laws of discrimination, then that applies to whites, Blacks and everybody. So also, there's discrimination intra-racially with Blacks being prejudiced against Blacks. That can occur. And I want to, if anybody knows about that, I would like to have that answered, because I'm not a believer at all in affirmative action, because I believe that if God doesn't get you your foot in the door, the Supreme Court won't either. And that's what I believe.

Holloway:
Well, that, Brad, you want to...

Thompson:
Well, I certainly agree that God is central to any success that we would have as people. However, I do believe that there is evidence that affirmative action still serves a purpose. It will not necessarily end discrimination because that is a personal practice. But the effect of that discrimination can impair the ability of people who are qualified, who are capable, who can have a contribution to be included within those who do the work. And I think that the effort here is to try to make sure there's appropriate inclusion for those people who are prepared, and they're not pushed aside because of factors like their race or their sex or other parameters that could allow them to make contributions and have them be denied, only because of discrimination. That's what affirmative action does. And I think there's clear evidence that that's continued to be needed in our society.

Holloway:
Another question or comment, Sir, go right ahead.

M:
My name is Charles Burlack. For the last 30 years, I was an employee and manager of a very large computer manufacturing company. I worked with their affirmative action program, which I thought was a very good one. And what you've said tonight belies some of the information that seems to have gone to some of these people, particularly who just asked his question. We have a misunderstanding of what affirmative action is. It's not a program to give somebody a foot up to the disadvantage of somebody else. Affirmative action is a program of inclusion, as you were just saying. For those people who were not included before. And that's essentially all it is.

Holloway:
Can you tie that to economic development or would you all like to respond to that?

Thompson:
Well, obviously, you mentioned for example southeast Raleigh, which is a community, my district is over 50,000 people. And if you look at that community and you see a community with two universities. You see a community that has an average household income that compares favorably with North Carolina. Great average educational level, but a community that would struggle to attract a food store. It defies logic. [Applause] And when you began to look at why people don't invest, it is not based upon demographics or facts. It's based upon impression and perception. And you spend a lot of your time overcoming things that you know are not real. And I think this is the challenge for a community, such as southeast Raleigh that has so many strengths, is to have those people who are willing to invest and has resources to not see it through that prism of prejudice. But to open themselves to the real opportunities and the real people who have so much to contribute, who happen to be African American and happen to live in the southeast coordinant of Raleigh.

Nooe:
Well, actually, Brad, I'm also your constituent.

Thompson:
Well, you're in the 25% and I'm happy about it.

Nooe:
Okay. And as a matter of fact, as a white person, I will continue to be in the minority in this nation, as all of us who are white will be. People of color outnumber us. But going back to the whole thing that you were talking about, about perception. The city has -- a little lately -- but has actually come to prepare the infrastructure for southeast Raleigh. It has roads, new roads: Martin Luther King Blvd., Raleigh Blvd., Rock Quarry Road extension. It has water, sewer. It is well equipped. But what it does not have is it does not have people who are seeking economic development being cheer-leaders for southeast Raleigh. And that is a detriment to all of Raleigh. And basically, you know, we continually hear this perpetuation of crime. You can look at the statistics. There is no more crime; in fact, there is less crime in southeast Raleigh than there is at Crabtree Valley Mall. You know, let's get a break. You know, let's get real about this thing. We are not looking at the facts.

Thompson:
_____________ elements that will help, Jay. And I think that one of the things we have a new economic development act in North Carolina, so that those people who are willing to invest in southeast Raleigh and areas like southeast Raleigh will now begin to get tax credits up to $4500 per employees. I believe that will be an incentive for many new businesses to come in and also for existing businesses to expand and to use the benefits of that act to say southeast Raleigh is where we're going to create our opportunity. And I think that will benefit the people who live within that region.

Holloway:
Sir, we must not have addressed your point.

M:
I have one more question or one more point to make.

Holloway:
Quickly, please.

M:
And I'll make it quickly. What you've said about the attitudes being perpetuated in the Black community or about the Black community are really an offshoot of the old racism. There was always questions about the problem of Blacks in America. There was never a problem of Blacks in America. There was a problem for Blacks in American and that problem was racism. [Applause] Affirmative action is a step toward solving that problem, because the world is an inclusion of everybody, not just a particular group. It would be as bad if all of the leaders of this world came from Ohio and everybody who did not come from Ohio and was not a part of that culture had to have some sort of training or something to allow them to become a part of the situation of leadership, because they didn't have the same culture. And that's what's happened in America. There is not problem of Blacks in America. There's a problem of racism and the lack of inclusion in American and the only think that we can do right now to keep that from getting any worse is affirmative action. When does that end? It doesn't end. It's a program of inclusion; why would you end it? Why would you have five children and not include one in what's going on in the family?

Holloway:
Let me ask Aura...

Nooe:
Discrimination is a white problem, y'all. I mean, it's a white problem. Black folks, you know, they haven't discriminated against anybody. Who's discriminated white folks? And that's basically where we're coming from. And until we are willing to support and built on African American leadership and leadership of people of color, we're not going to get out of this stuff.

Holloway:
Aura Camacho-Marsh, did you view that the same way? The Hispanic community coming in -- I participated in a similar program before and you let me know that the color issue didn't appear to be as much in the Hispanic community, if I remember correctly -- but do you feel that you still have to deal with the issue, the problem of racism in America. Can you address that?

Camacho-Marsh:
Well, when one arrives as a Latin American person to the United States, immediately you are confronted with the race issue. In our cultures, race is not a main element to differentiate people, even though we have all the same cultural groups and cultural influences in the United States, meaning Native, European, African, Asian influences. Okay? But in Latin America, generally speaking, people are divided by social classes, social-economical groups. Okay? When we come to this country, immediately you are classified as a Latino, brown-skinned, you know, all these terms. Okay. Or Hispanic. You know. And immediately, it's like, we are not a homogeneous culture. Here, it's like everybody wants to puts us in a box. Okay? And so it's a tremendous adaptation that one has to go through, which I believe, I mean, we were talking right before beginning this session with Brad that I see, we can focus on the situation and say we have a problem, a serious problem. You know, if you look at the projections, I don't know really what has happened in terms of the growth of the Latin American community throughout this nation, you know, it's a huge problem. But I see, actually, this as a great opportunity, because if we look again at the cultural identity of the Latin American people, it's the same cultural groups that we have in the United States. So why don't we put that on the table, you know, and address, at the same time, we will address this new group coming in, you know, while addressing the old issues of the United States. You know, and we are all talking about people, you know, with the same cultural influences.

Holloway:
Thank you for that. We have another question or comment here at the microphone. Yes, Ma'am, go right ahead.

F:
Okay, my name is Tracy Ogen. I'm a student at North Carolina State University. And I've noticed that a lot of the problems that one minority faces are faced by other minority groups. And I'm wondering is you can kind of tell me what keeps those groups from working together or if they are working together, what they're working to accomplish and how are they going about doing that?

Holloway:
Who wants to deal with that?

Thompson:
Well, I think Aura and I do pretty well together but I don't know if that is reflective of the totality. We do find ourselves with common issues. I think once we pull back, as Aura said, the veneer that might look different about us and find that we need a better education for our children, that we need better housing, that we need to have opportunities. We begin to find coalitions and we begin to work together on doing that. We struggle sometimes to get past the barriers. When we do, we find very strong partnerships and we'll continue to try to work to forge those.

Nooe:
I would hope that you would be a participant also in these solutions, because it's not just somebody else. It's all of us.

Camacho-Marsh:
Actually, it is work that has to take place first and first ____ at the individual level. It's about each one of us claiming our space in this roll. And not letting anybody walk into that space and at the same time be open-armed to embrace all the other people. But know who we are as individuals. And only then, I think, we can open up and embrace everybody else. And that's the job mostly of young people. You know, all the young people, you are the future. You have a great responsibility.

F:
Thank you.

Holloway:
We're getting close on time here and Dr. Flood, I want you to walk to the microphone. Because before we run out of time, Dr. Flood is retired Associate Superintendent of Public Instruction but does a lot of diversity training and is from this community. Can you comment on some of the things you've heard tonight and even of last week too? Where do we go from hearing these issues?

Flood:
Thank you, Jay. Fundamental to our way of life is the consideration on which this country was founded. That would be secure the protection to the persons less well-prepared to protect themselves. That's fundamental to our government. The issue of affirmative action was manifest in the framing of our Constitution, when it declared that Rhode Island would in fact have one representative, no fewer, and two senators. That was to protect it from California and New York and North Carolina who would have usurped Rhode Island and Delaware and the smaller states. Affirmative action was not there for the sake of Rhode Island. It was there for the sake of the good of the cause of American democracy, because the lack of representation of any element of our society is detrimental to all the rest of the elements. Now, the second point I would make is that when you look the solution, the solution comes in phases, as you well know. And for a long time, we worked toward equality and having neared that, we must forget about that and work toward equity. Equity is considerably more difficult to achieve than is equality. Equity is the distribution of resources, human, economic and all the other, based on need. And again, it isn't benevolence. It is what is good for the whole. If I can cite a very quick example -- and I'm proud of this, Brad -- I get three garbage pickups every week, one on Monday, one on Friday.... I don't need three garbage pickups every week. Only two people live at my house. We have a 20 gallon garbage pail and we're economists, so we don't throw anything away. But three blocks from me, there are people who also get three garbage pickups a week; they need two a day. They have one garbage pail. They put from 20 persons putting food in that garbage pail. Equity would require somebody to figure, how do you recognize that I am not well-served with having a surplus, when somebody has less than he or she needs and how am I going to be impacted later on if that continues. Because don't you see, rats are portable. They will not just stand around that over-filled garbage pail. They'll walk the three blocks or four blocks to your house eventually. It isn't benevolence. It is recognizing that it is inherently good for all of us to insure that each of us is well-served.

Holloway:
Thank you very much. [Applause] We only have three minutes here, so we need to be real quick. Okay.

Nooe:
I know. Okay. But one of the things that we never address, which everybody brought up is the infrastructure needs, which are not in place. The infrastructure for affordable housing. The infrastructure for transportation system that serves everyone in this community. We do not have those things. And until we are able to figure out how to have that then we cannot reach equity as Dr. Flood talked about.

Holloway:
My producers are going to kill me, but if you could give us a quick comment in 20 seconds. We can take one more.

M:
I just wanted to ask the Councilman if he was aware of the Walnut Creek project with the environmental justice issue and all that. Could you say a word about your involvement in that.

Thompson:
Yes, I plan to be out there in the morning at 8:00, so for those of you who want to clean up the creek, tomorrow's a good day to do it. It's an effort to provide this issue of environmental injustice, that is where you have an impact on small communities, or particularly minority communities that's adverse, can be resolved. And I think there's a big effort by that community and the church there to try to solve the issues related to the dumping and the other issues related to Walnut Creek, which runs right through our neighborhood. And there's a commitment by many people to go out there and take action, affirmative action, themselves to make sure that that creek is well-maintained and ultimately it becomes a destination, it becomes a park. And I believe they should be really commended.

Holloway:
Environmental racism. I want to get the two ladies the last two words real quickly. Take about 30 seconds.

Nooe:
Let her take it. I already said my bit.

Holloway:
Oh, okay. Aura, go right ahead.

Camacho-Marsh:
Something that I believe is extremely important for all of us to -- I think we all know it, really know it, and act on it -- it's the fact that we have to do some very serious work. But this is long-term. We cannot change things overnight. So it implies patience, you know, persistence, commitment, at all levels. And I think that was my last word.

Nooe:
And I would hope that everyone who is watching will act, not talk about, but find some way to act in their community for equity and justice.

Holloway:
Well, thank you so much. Alright. Well, thank you so much distinguished panelists, distinguished experts and our audience as well. And thank you to NC State, Chancellor Fox for hosting this meeting. Next week, we will be in Fayetteville, North Carolina, on the campus of Fayetteville State University for another town hall meeting. I certainly want to say to our audience, our viewing audience as well, we know that we can't resolve all these issues in a certain short amount of time on a television program, but we hope that through discussing these issues, you'll be more thoughtful and think about these issues and send your comments to us. You see the comments on your screen, the address and the phone number. Let us know your comments and please call us or fax us or visit our Website. I'm Jay Holloway. Thank you so much for watching Black Issues Forum. You have a blessed evening and a good night.