Holloway:
Tonight, another town hall meeting on race relations, this time in Fayetteville on the campus of Fayetteville State University, next, on Black Issues Forum. [PAUSE: MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to another edition of Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host. We're in Fayetteville tonight on the campus of Fayetteville State University for another town hall meeting on race relations. This community is unique because they've already had town hall meetings, at least one, during the spring of 1998. And we're going to be talking tonight about some of the outcomes of that, the outgrowths. We'll have a part 2 on next week and talk about some specific study circles they've had. First let me introduce you my panel here on the stage. First is Ray Shipman, he's president of the Fayetteville chapter of the NAACP. Mr. Shipman, thank you for being with us. Shipman: Thank you for having me. .

Holloway:
Next is Linda Lee Allen. She is co-chair of the Fayetteville United. Linda, thank you for being with us.

Allen:
Thank you so much for being here.

Holloway:
And last but not least is Roger Stancil, he's the Fayetteville City Manager. Thank you for being with us.

Stancil:
Thank you. Welcome to Fayetteville.

Holloway:
Thank you. And also we'll have our expert in the audience here, Dr. William Brown. He'll make some comments at the end of the program. He is the former Superintendent of Public Instruction here in Fayetteville, in the public school system. And we also should, I say, have a studio audience here on the campus of Fayetteville State University and we're asking them also to make comments and post questions and we certainly hope that you will be involved as well. Let's talk about this town hall meeting that you all had. I read an article and, Linda, I'd like to address maybe the first question to you. You were quoted in the paper, and I just want to jump into it, it says here "the front rows of hell are lined with people who when faced with controversy do nothing." Have you all done something here in Fayetteville as a result of the town hall meeting you had in April of last year, 1998.

Allen:
I think we've begun to do some things and I have to tell you that quote did not come from me. I don't want to take credit for that. That came from Dante's Inferno, so I have to give credit where credit is due.

Holloway:
All right. What kinds of things, let me ask you, Mr. Shipman, what kinds of things, is the NAACP satisfied with what has happened in Fayetteville as a result of the town hall meeting? Shipman: Well, to be totally honest, no, we're not. And to say we're satisfied would be a slight inappropriate term to use at this time. However, this began approximately two years ago and we're needing some concrete things to be brought about in order to alleviate problems. Dialogue is great but there must be an action phase.

Holloway:
You know, the City Manager is in the position, sometimes, to do some things. Have you seen some concrete things? I know we have these study circles and we are going to talk about that in detail on the next program, next week. But have you observed any concrete things that have happened as result of the first town hall meeting.

Stancil:
Well, I think Fayetteville is a truly unique community in North Carolina. We are multinational multiethnic community. And I think one of the things that has occurred, not only as a result of the town hall meeting, which in my mind emphasized the need for us to talk together and to talk at all levels in this community and to involve everyone in those conversations. And I think that effort has begun, but I would certainly agree with both Linda and Ray, I don't think we will ever be satisfied with what we achieve because there is always more to achieve. And I would also think we've only just begun to talk and there's a lot to talk about. But Fayetteville United, which they are the co-chairs of, the mission statement includes not only dialogue but united actions and that is the beauty of study circles which we'll talk about later, it involves action and not just talk.

Holloway:
In our research our producer found four issues that were raised in that April town meeting. And let me throw these out and ask you where are you now as a result of those issues. One was a lack of church unity. Another was racial objectivity of the Fayetteville Observer Times, another was incorporating black history into the public school curriculum. And the final one was lack of involvement by the working class. Let's start with the lack of church unity, has Fayetteville United, tell us what that organization is, is the church more united now, has the NAACP observed that or do you want to comment about that? Shipman: Well, actually it has been stated quite frequently that the 11:00 o'clock hour is the most segregated hour in our country. However, through Fayetteville United at least we have some churches now that are partnering up and they are having dialogue. And you'll find out more about how they are going about this whenever they discuss the study circles. The churches are beginning to form study circles and of course you have different ethnic groups involved. So, therefore, it is a beginning. So, therefore things did come out of the meetings, those study circles are bringing churches together in partnerships.

Holloway:
Linda, tell us about this Fayetteville United as an example for viewers around the state. What is the organization and how are you organized?

Allen:
I'll be happy to, Jay, and I need to give you one additional comments on the churches. One day Roger got a check in the mail from one of our local Fayetteville churches who sent the city of Fayetteville a check for $2500 and asked them to apply that in anyway, any program that they felt appropriate to work to improving race relations. Two of our specific large Baptist Churches, Snyder Memorial and First Baptist, have done a pilot study circle for us. There is some additional work that our churches have done in working together to improve different conditions in this community. There is an In As Much day that they do several times a year, a number of other activities. As to Fayetteville United, Ray and I represent or represented at the time fairly large constituencies. At that time I was chairman of the Fayetteville Chamber of Commerce, Ray was president of the NAACP. We both, organizations, had vested interest in seeing this community begin to communicate, work together on common problems. So, as the volunteer leadership of those two organizations, Roger encouraged us to sit down and talk and that is really how it all began, Ray and I talking privately one-on-one and then gradually bringing various partners together to form a very small Fayetteville United nucleus, just to begin to get to know each other, so that we could talk about common interests and talk about common concerns and then begin to work on projects, goals, strategies to improve this community. Study circles is only one piece of beginning to work together in this community.

Holloway:
So, these are some action things that did specifically come out of that initial town hall meeting. Roger, have you all decided what to do with that $2500?

Stancil:
Well, actually it is being used to support the study circles effort and that whole budget, that whole amount is dedicated to helping study circles get off the ground.

Holloway:
The other topic was the racial objectivity of the Fayetteville Observer Times. Is the newspaper, does it have that much impact in terms of public opinion here and is it still viewed by some or many as not being objective?

Allen:
I think everybody will always view the media, at times, as not being objective. I mentioned to our editor the other day that I get very frustrated when an organization or something that I'm a part of that spends big advertising dollars with Fayetteville Observer Times then gets bashed on the news side. We think that is unfair and yet if you ask the media, that is exactly how they ought to be, as separate, just like church and state is separate you've got to separate your advertisers who pay you from being good news reporters. I think I've seen some change in the Fayetteville Observer Times. When we met with the editor the other day, he shared with us an initiative that they had begun to begin to even understand the diversity within their organization and within the reporting media. The Fayetteville Observer Times is especially critical to this community because we do not have a local television station, in terms of doing local news. And so our radio stations and our print media become even more critical to this community. And I don't think that anybody will ever believe that the media is always objective because they don't always mirror our viewpoint.

Holloway:
That is one of the reasons that I should say, on behalf of the state-wide public television, that we are coming to different communities. To give you an audience and give you an opportunity to have this forum. But let me ask, though. Have the media specifically the Fayetteville Observer Times been involved in these study circles.

Allen:
They've given us great coverage. They've given us wonderful coverage.

Holloway:
But because they are the topic of the discussion it seems to me they should be invited to participate in the dialogue.

Allen:
Well, everyone in this community is going to be invited. Everybody.

Holloway:
What about the economic issue. I've heard it said actually, a gentleman who is going to be on our next panel had a little difference with this most segregated hour being the church hour. He says the most segregated hour is pay time. And we think about economics. You are the City Manager here. Is there equal opportunity in the city of Fayetteville? Do blacks and whites feel like they have an equal opportunity here and that kind of thing?

Stancil:
Economically? Well, it is a low wealth community in the first place. It is a retail based economy in many regards. And retail is not a high wage industry. There have been significant efforts by the community in recent years to attract basic industry and we've had some success in doing that, we have many international industries located here in Fayetteville and a growing distribution operation. So, there is an attempt to raise the level for everyone. We are, I believe the opportunities here are available to everyone. One of the examples I think the studies had to do not with economics but had to do with housing patterns. And the housing patterns in Fayetteville, I believe, were the fourth least segregated in the country as a whole, and to me that would indicate that there is some equal access to the economic systems because the housing patterns are that way. Shipman: Jay, along that line I'd also like to state from our perspective here, what we would like to see, the jobs are there, what we would like to see, we'd like to walk in the City Hall, and if it is 33% of this community is one ethnic group then let that ethnic group be represented that way in City Hall, from the top to the bottom. In other words, if we're going to be fair about it, let's bring in and let our diverse culture and diversity show from the beginning to the end. And the best place for it to start would be at the head of the government.

Holloway:
Let me just say to our studio audience that this is a forum and we only have a short amount of time and so we really would encourage you to participate with a comment or question because one of the criticisms, quite frankly, of these types of forums is that we don't have a wide variety of people participating. And we do have here, so I would encourage you to come to the microphone if you have a comment or question.

Allen:
And, Jay, on behalf of all the women I've got to tell you that the women of all cultures in this city are making 1/3rd to 1/4th less than the men are. I guess I need to speak up for our gender as well as race.

Holloway:
Let's talk about, well, have the study circles included youth in this as well, because that is another issue as well, and we have a comment we're going to go to in just a second.

Allen:
The study circles have not officially begun to the community yet. We've had pilot study circles and so those have been from the Fayetteville United Group, from the two churches that I've mentioned, and from the Human Relations Commission. So they have not been youth involved, although in the last two pilots that was a very, both of those were a very multicultural diversity in those two study circles. Starting in January, when the whole community becomes engaged there will be every age.

Holloway:
You heard me quote a gentleman earlier and this is Carl Lucas at the microphone now, go right head, do you have a comment or question, sir.

M:
It is a comment. And my concern was brought up at the last meeting. There's a lot of good ideas that get bantered around in a discussion like this, just like at the last meeting. One of the good ideas that was brought up by a parent was to include African American history throughout the K through 12 level, and that was laid on the table. When we have leaders who are involved in the public school system as well as in the academic area through the college, and then government officials as well as labor, in terms of industries here, when there's things that are brought up that they can act on, we don't need a study group to study that, we need to act on that. And that was one of the concerns that was brought up at that particular time, when they were concerned about K through 12 inclusion of African-American history, there was a professor from Fayetteville State that had volunteered to get involved with that and he helped develop the curriculum. And when you get a free opportunity to get that kind of high level experience, because they have 20 years experience teaching African American history, we should capitalize on that and move forward. The other thing I was concerned about was that still there was no resolution to the police officer situation. And that requires not a study group but direct action from the city management to act on that. And those are the kind of concerns that I have about what a study group won't be able to do. They can talk about issues, but then it requires those government officials as well as industry officials to actually act on the laws that are present, EEO laws, public policies, governmental policies from the federal level to the local level.

Holloway:
He's raised quite a few issues. Thank you so much. And I guess that I could translate that into saying accountability when we bring some of these issues up. At what point do we say, well, we don't need to discuss this any further. We need to go ahead and act on it. Who would like to address that. First, I guess, the public school issues, do you all know what happened to that with the black history in the public schools? Anybody? What happened to that? [SILENCE] What about the government issue, I guess that it something, Mr. Stancil, you can address.

Stancil:
Well, in regards to Mr. Shipman's comment I would wholeheartedly agree that local government, especially, should look like the community it serves. And that is especially important in Fayetteville as we talked about the multinational multiethnic character of our community, the women in our community. And we try very hard to do that. We've created an equal opportunity employment plan and we are trying to work closely with the NAACP and other organizations in the community to develop that plan, to seek assistance in recruiting people to fill positions. We're very concerned about the management of our city and the that the management of our city reflect this community because that is the only way that everybody's viewpoints will be represented in local government. And we work very hard to do that.

Holloway:
There have been some incidents with the military, I think, a few years ago with the racial incident there. And that effects this city, because I guess a lot of people are involved. Is Fort Bragg involved in this situation at all?

Stancil:
Fort Bragg is very much involved in Fayetteville United. They have two representatives on Fayetteville United and are very much a part of those discussions.

Holloway:
I want to talk about how your community has come back from that terrible incident a few years ago, but we do have another comment or question from the audience. Sir, go right ahead.

M:
Thank you very much, good evening, everyone. Going back to your point on economic development I've heard that being asked a lot of times and when it is answered, especially from the _____ point of view it is always centered on jobs and employment. Well, we know that economic development is bigger than just jobs and employment. To give you an idea, I saw an advertisement for a local franchise, not a national franchise, you can get your own business by having $80,000 of your own money and financing the _____ up to a million dollars, but they are equal opportunity? I think not. Because that criteria limits who can get involved. And I guess I'd like to see, in Fayetteville, things put into place that would not limit minority business and minority entrepreneur but also encourage it. And I think then we would have some first rate initiatives and economic development in our community.

Holloway:
So, you are saying there are limitations on that now, you think?

M:
Just some inherent limitations that really does not favor a lot of minority business, especially, because they don't have the track record or the history of being in the economic development field. But when you only limit economic development to jobs you are not going to have community and growth and development needs to be there.

Holloway:
So, ownership, are there any incentives from the city or did the Chamber of Commerce formally set up any incentives to help minority entrepreneurs.

Allen:
Well, the Chamber's mission and its budgetary level don't lend itself to have any money to assist one business over another. The purpose of the Chamber is to assist all of its members in becoming more profitable or profitable as some of us like to say. And then in exchange for their help in programs to help us be successful in business, then they ask us to give back into this community to make it a better community, and that is the Chamber's role. It is not a funding vehicle, there are no funds in that non-profit organization to spearhead entrepreneurial capital intensive efforts.

Holloway:
Does the city give any incentive programs for minority businesses?

Stancil:
Yes, sir, we do have a goal of 10% minority business involvement in the contracts that we issue, which is a pretty significant number of contracts. And we reach that goal every year for the last....quite a few years. We also have a constant effort to , in addition to an equal opportunity employment plan, we have an equal opportunity contracting plan which identifies where we believe the opportunities are. We work with the Chamber of Commerce and with other organizations, the business and professional league, to identify barriers that we might create in our contracting opportunities to small businesses and try to remove those barriers such as bonding or performance requirements. Holloway; So, is the goal 10% or is there another goal that you are hoping to achieve?

Stancil:
The goal is 10% and we have exceeded that goal every year.

Holloway:
Let me just remind our television viewers that we'll put the number on the screen for these study circles so that you can contact them and find out more about some of the issues that you are hearing about tonight. Let's go back to our microphone here. We have a comment or question, sir. Go right ahead.

M:
Nice to see you again. My name is Masila Moticia, I am a professor here at School of Education and I do teach two courses in cultural diversity. But I wanted to make a comment and a question as to how this relates to how the city addresses the issue because I see it dealing with the employees and the employees have the kids who go to school. And I find it quite troubling when I raise issues on ________ issue, as to how they relate to self-awareness which leads to positive approach to how you deal with each other in terms of relationship. I would like to say that a public forum like this would be difficult, and I understand, I'm going to be involved in study circles as a facilitator, so I know we are going to start a new way, but my question really lies into how do you help your employees, especially who work with the city, and those, what you may call stakeholders, in terms of those who you impact, in discussing the issues relating to identity. Because I do see a very big gap in African experience. African means African American and African experience, even in the classroom.

Holloway:
Let's talk about that identity, we only have a few minutes left. Who would like to address that.

Stancil:
I can tell you what the city is doing, one of the things we are doing is working with representatives of the International Folk Festival in order to expose or management and our supervisors and our employees to the different cultures that are represented in that festival. We are also beginning in the middle of December training to help our leadership and our employees recognize the diversity in our workforce and to begin to appreciate and understand that diversity and make it a strength for our city.

Holloway:
Mr. Shipman, what about these economic issues. Does that come up in the NAACP and are you all encouraging that? Shipman: Well under the, we do have a branch which we call Economic Development and that is a section of our organization which works with various manufacturers many people who are in business, to help and try to stem the gap and get more people involved in certain aspects of work. So, therefore it is an arm and normally we are receiving brochures, we do receive materials from various places, from the railroad companies, trucking companies and things of this nature, _______ periodically send us brochures telling us of opening that they do have.

Holloway:
We've asked Dr. William Brown to come forward, who is from this community and is well known here, but is also well known around the state. He is a former Superintendent of Fayetteville Schools.

Brown:
Associate Superintendent.

Holloway:
Associate, sorry. Give us your observations on what you've heard tonight and some words of wisdom if you could, Dr. Brown.

Brown:
Thank you for believing that I have words of wisdom. I can concur with the members of the panel that progress is being made in this community. I have been here 43 years and I've seen a lot of change made. I do want to make reference, Jay, with one prop that you have on stage. I think that most people out here would recognize if I were to say to them, tell me what do you see on that prop in terms of color. I believe most of you would tell me that you see two or three different colors up there. And one thing that I would say with the study circles and all forums etceteras is that in this community, as in America, I think we take a poor approach, if not the wrong approach, to race relations because we speak in terms of color blind society. We don't need a color blind society. Color blindness is dangerous. And if we have problems I say that it greatly rests upon the fact that people claim to be color blind. And as I look in this audience I can see people who have given attention to red blouse, blue shirt, maroon cars, we have all kinds of things of color and we have no problem with it until it comes to people. Now, up on that prop I have said to people, don't be color blind, be color intelligent. If you are not color intelligent you are going to get killed or you are going to kill somebody out there in the street if you don't know the difference between red, green and yellow. Red is stop, yellow slow, green go. That is intelligence. That is all we need to do is be color intelligent not color blind.

Holloway:
Thank you so much. And speaking of red, we've got to stop, we've run completely out of time. I want to thank the audience for joining us tonight and thank you for the audience as well for participating. Thank you to Fayetteville State University and we want to encourage you to engage yourself, to think about what Dr. Brown says and be color intelligent. Also we do want to remind you that we do have the numbers on your screen right now for the Human Relations Commission and the study circles here in Fayetteville, North Carolina. Also, the numbers to Black Issues Forum, call us with your comments, visit us on the world wide web. I'm Jay Holloway, you have a blessed evening and a good night. Thank you for joining us.