Holloway:
Did you know that the only
coup d'etat recorded in American History occurred right
here in North Carolina? We'll talk about the 1898 race riot
in Wilmington, next on Black Issues Forum. [MUSIC]
Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to
Black Issues Forum. I am Jay Holloway, your host. Tonight
we are in Wilmington, North Carolina on the campus of UNC-W
talking about a very emotional and sensitive issue, the
1898 Race Riot of Wilmington. This community has already
been through a 100 year commemoration activity and has been
struggling with this issue for the last two years. But,
really with its historic significance for the last 100 years.
We are going to talk about that tonight. Let me introduce
our distinguished panel first.
First is Kenny Davis. Kenny
is a member of the executive committee of the 1898 Commemoration
Committee. He is also publisher of this book entitled, We
Have Taken a City: Wilmington Racial Massacre and Coup of
1898. Kenny thank you for being with us. Also, Rhonda Bellamy.
Rhonda is news director of Coast 97.3 and 102.7 FM radio
stations. And she has also served as the co-executive secretary
of the 1898 Centennial Foundation. Rhonda, thank you for
being with us. And last but not least, is Dr. James McGivern
with UNC-W. He is professor in the Department of Philosophy
and Religion. Thank all three of you for being with us this
evening. This is something that many persons across North
Carolina may or may not have ever heard about this 1898
Commemoration or the actual event and the historic significance
that it has for North Carolina or really the country. I
can imagine that going through this in 1998 was a tough
issue for this community. Who would like to start and explain
why there was a need to have a commemoration for this and
the significance of this? Kenny.
Davis:
I believe that we had to start
talking about the issues that divide us and the 1898 event
was a very sensitive issue. In my view, no one really talked
about it. There were always undercurrents about what had
happened and it had a direct impact on race relations in
Wilmington. So, as we began to meet, we started about 2
years ago at the public radio station. It was an organization
known as ACT, the Alliance for Community Transformation.
This evolved into the 1898 Foundation. One of the things
that I personally tried to do was not focus so much on the
violence but to focus on the positive accomplishments of
African Americans from 1865 to 1898. During those 33 years,
focus on what they accomplished in terms of business and
politics.
Holloway:
Rhonda, let me ask you as
one of the co-chairs of the Foundation, and incidentally
Chancellor Lutecy referred to that about focusing on the
positive and we want to do that. But, I guess we need to
clarify what actually happened in a very brief summary.
What was this race riot? And what was this coup d'etat?
Can you tell us briefly?
Bellamy:
It was actually three days
of violence following the Wilmington Elections of 1898,
when duly elected government officers were thrown out of
office and run out of the city and some were killed. And
the undercurrents that continue to plague the Wilmington
Community are what the 1898 Centennial Foundation chose
to look at.
Holloway:
Dr. McGivern, what kind of
impact has that had on this community as a historical event?
McGivern:
Well, it has had all kinds
of impact. Much of it not easily recognized because when
people don't talk about it and those who come after the
fact don't learn anything about it, and just may know that
something not very pleasant happened but not sure what it
was. And it was very cleverly done. What happened would
be that the Democratic party on its program of white supremacy
managed to wrest power as far as the elections were concerned
and then to have the history books written in such a way
that it was sanitized. So, understandably white people didn't
want to talk about it because it wasn't any big deal. It
was just a few little incidents of violence that unnecessarily,
unfortunately took place. But they don't even include the
intentions, the planning, the extent of the conspiracy that
took place. The Raleigh News and Observer played a very
large part. Josephus Daniels fomented the race hatred for
some 8 or 9 months before the events in Wilmington. So it
really is a very sad chapter of the history and that is
why this centennial commemoration was so necessary. At least
we have started to have the story told.
Holloway:
Well I guess you all have
talked about it so much in the commemoration event and have
gone through a lot of details. But I imagine it is still
a tough issue as you mention. What do you think are some
of the misconceptions that people have about, still views
that people have, blacks and whites today. If you have an
opportunity, Kenny what would you say to clarify?
Davis:
One of the things and one
of the committees that we had on the foundation was the
economic inclusion. And that committee addresses economic
issues. And what had happened was business men were banished
from town, never to return again. In 1898 there was in excess
of 120 businesses. So business became stagnant and right
now, what we are trying to do is get black and white businessmen
to come together and establish mentoring programs and things
of that nature so that we can be an inclusive society, in
terms of business.
Holloway:
And we are going to talk about
some of that next week, about some of the political implications.
What would you say, Rhonda, has this event caused the black
and white community here in Wilmington to come together
more?
Bellamy:
Yes, I think so. I think that
is was the vehicle by which some of the relationships that
we were striving to forge were able to come together. The
executive council, for example, of the 1898 Centennial Foundation
was comprised of co-chairs. One black, one white, by design
so that through this mechanism we have in place. Through
the foundation we can start to practice what we preach.
Holloway:
In some of the materials that
I read, there was some criticism that not many blacks were
involved in this event. Was that true?
Bellamy:
I would say that there was
a significant portion of the black community that chose
not to become involved. But it is my philosophy that you
can't shake hands with a clenched fist. And I would rather
be out there with a cause that is educating our children
and stimulating economic development and memorializing the
victims of 1898 than to sit on the sidelines and let another
100 years go by without mention being made of this terrible
travesty.
Holloway:
Dr. McGivern, do you think
it probably was due to fear on both sides, fear from blacks
not wanting to do that and maybe fear from whites not wanting
to discuss it too? Was that an element you believe?
McGivern:
Fear was certainly an element,
but there were other factors. I don't think that many white
Wilmingtonians ever read the white declaration of independence
that was signed by over 400 white male Wilmingtonians November
9, 1898. And never renounced until November 10, 1998. That
declaration of white superiority and black inferiority is
really the cancer that has caused most of the problems between
the races in the community. I am not saying that signing
a declaration of interdependence is going to solve those
problems, but at least it is a step in the right direction.
Holloway:
You know, it is kind of eerie
to think that 100 years ago and at that time, as Kenny mentioned
before, more black businesses but you had more black elected
officials. The income of wealth was more, I guess, equally
distributed. You are probably getting closer to that now,
and you said that 100 years later they made a disclaimer
to that. We do have a comment or question in the audience
now. First, I do want to remind our viewers as well as our
studio audience, is that we have a studio audience and we
urge you to come to the microphone. Yes, sir, your comment.
Thomas:
Good evening. My name is Larry Thomas. I am a writer based
in Chapel Hill. I have written a book called The True Story
Behind the Wilmington Ten. I have done extensive research
on this incident. One of the things that disturbed me was
that there was land stolen. There was property and money
stolen from the African American population here in Wilmington
in 1898. No one has really talked about that. No one seems
to want to talk about that. I have a hypothetical question
to anybody. If there was a mass movement in Wilmington to
seek compensation for what was stolen and what was taken,
would there be any people in this room to endorse that besides
me? Thank you.
Holloway:
Thank you. That's reparations
issue. Let me..
Thomas:
Compensation.
Holloway:
Compensation, yes sir. And
Mr. Thomas, I want to thank you, you sent us an article
that you published in The Urban Journal, and I want to thank
you for sending this to Black Issues Forum.
Thomas:
Thank you for coming.
Holloway:
All right. Compensation, I
have to acknowledge this because we did a show, actually
Dr. McLauren, about a year or so here from Wilmington was
on there about reparations, and that's why I put the two
together. And the country has dealt with that larger issue.
Why would whites even want to consider that? I'm just throwing
that out. I imagine there are a lot that are watching that
wouldn't come tonight, but I'm sure they're thinking that.
Who wants to deal with this question about this compensation
issue? How is that relevant today?
Bellamy:
I've wrestled with the issue
of reparation and compensation. We do know that as a result
of people being run out of town and lives disrupted, that
certainly there was a transfer of property that happened
probably illegally. And to some extent I would like that
recognized, but I also want to recognize the value of the
human lives that were lost, and it's not all about property.
It's about ensuring that something like this never happens
again. And while I would probably back someone who could
come with proof about what was taken and when, I would probably
be hesitant to say that it's something that the foundation
would endorse.
Holloway:
Dr. McGivern, do you want
to address that?
McGivern:
Yeah, I would agree that I
think the danger of starting with something like reparations
or compensation is turning it into an economic, political
question alone. And as far as I'm concerned, the primary
question is ethical, and until we address that and recognize
the wrong that was done and do what we can to bring about
some kind of reconciliation between the races, no amount
of money is going to do anything that will be of lasting
value. Now, I would not be against reparations or compensation,
I'm simply saying I wouldn't start there. I think when the
spirit were sufficiently developed, where there could be
honest discussion and accurate records-I think that's part
of the problem is that there's so little that's been documented;
that if there were proper documentation where it could be
shown that this property was illegally taken and that there
are heirs that are around to whom it would have been inherited
or by whom, then I think something might well be done, and
it's time to consider it at that point. But I think, given
the situation where virtually nothing was known about 1989
throughout so much of Wilmington, that's not the starting
place. There, if you want to talk about fear, that's something
that'll scare a lot of white people in a hurry.
Holloway:
Well that's why I mentioned
that, you know. And I mentioned that right off the bat because
I'm aware of that, and quite frankly, that's the majority
of our state and the majority of UNC-TV viewers, and I want
to bring that point up. Kenny, do you agree with this?
Davis:
Well, one of the things that
has to happen is, because it's a very sensitive issue, but
you have to identify that a number of people who were banished
from town, their property was illegally seized. We have
to identify those people and prove ownership, and form a
connection with the property. I think that dealing with
the economic issue in terms of trying to create better jobs,
better conditions, establish businesses and entrepreneurial
spirit in the black community would be better in terms of
involving the whole community, and doing something to uplift
the whole community, instead of focusing on a few people
who have to go through a long legal process in order to
prove ownership or connection with these properties.
Holloway:
Okay, we have another comment
or question. Sir, go right ahead, please. Tate: Good afternoon.
My name is Jesse Tate and I'm a Wilmingtonian but I left
over 35 years ago, and I've been living in the Washington,
D.C. regional area, and I want to go back to this issue
about reparations. In that Washington D.C. area, there's
been a platform that's been on the Congressional floor for
years, and we believe, we as African people, we believe
that the issue is money. We need the money in order that
we may be able to rebuild those things that have been taken
away from us. And I find that white people don't want to
do that. They refuse to recognize that issue, and I take
issue with the idea that the minister thinks that that would
be a big cause of trouble if we should start there. I don't
think so. I'm 55 years of age, and I know what is required,
I can handle my own expenses.
Holloway:
Okay, thank you so much for
that comment. Let me ask you, do programs like this help
the issue, in terms of understanding? I know there's been
discussion and there's been dialogue on this, but is there
something on both sides of the issue that the other side
needs to hear to help them understand better about this
issue. We understand clearly there's a big gap between this
issue.
Davis:
I think one of the things
that the Foundation has been instrumental in doing is creating
positive dialogue between people who have been historical
adversaries. And I find that you have a situation where
whites are in a perpetual denial mode; they deny that these
events took place and refuse to accept it. And on the other
hand, in a number of instances, we have blacks who are in
a perpetual blame mode. We can't blame white folks for everything
that's happened. We know that slavery existed and wrongs
were done, and some people benefited, and some people in
our society still benefit from the vestiges of slavery.
But we're going to have to address these tough issues and
that's what the Foundation has done, created a dialogue
so we can address very serious and hard questions that.
Holloway:
Is that dialogue ongoing or
it just this past year for the..?
Bellamy:
The work of the 1898 Centennial
Foundation is ongoing, and in fact two of the major components
are yet to be realized. And they're still in the planning
phase and they're really going to determine how successful
the commemoration was. We want people to understand that
it was more than a Kumbaya-fest where we all sat around
feeling good about what was happening, and patting each
other on the back for being noble. But rather that we have
economic development initiatives, efforts to memorialize
the victims, that have yet to come to fruition, and that's
why we're still counting on the community.
Holloway:
So those are the goals that
you have?
Bellamy:
Exactly.
Holloway:
And so that's how you're measuring
some of the success from the.
Bellamy:
Exactly. We have a number
of programs that were very well-received in the community
last year. But again, I think the real measure, the success
of this foundation is going to be the economic development
initiative and those things that come after the 100 anniversary.
Holloway:
Given that often the bottom
line, economics often comes up, and that's one of the things
here, you can understand I guess why some people are so
passionate about the economic and the reparations or compensation
issue, what could you say-because I understood you say that
you understand that but it's not really time to do that
first--What can you say to help folks understand your viewpoint
a little clearer?
McGivern:
I think that without solid
human relations with mutual respect, with people talking
to one another as people. Without that, I think your negotiations
turn into legalistic quarrels and they are not going to
be of any lasting value. I don't believe that the bottom
line is economic. I think economics has stolen that position
as far as a password, but the bottom line is humanity. And
unless we can learn that we are one family, that we are
one human race, that there are no races other than the one
human race, and that means no more white superiority, no
more black inferiority--when we can get that through our
thick skulls and thick hearts, then I think we can do a
lot of things to help the poor, to help those who are most
needy in our society. But otherwise, I think we're dealing
with the superficial.
Holloway:
Okay. I want to, before you
ask your question, I want to ask Mr. Anthony Bolton with
this economic partnership to come to the mic to explain,
because he may can add some insight to that. But go right
ahead, Rhonda.
Bellamy:
That's Bolton Anthony.
Holloway:
Bolton Anthony, I'm sorry.
Bellamy:
I just wanted to add that
I think that educating the public has to be the first thing.
There are many people who grew up in Wilmington, my parents
included, that knew nothing about 1898. And so for them
to go to bat fighting for reparations and some of the other
things that other factions of the community feel need to
be in place, they need to know about what they're fighting
for.
Holloway:
Mr. Anthony, excuse me for
getting your name wrong. But could you give us some positive
examples of what your partnership has been doing?
Anthony:
The partnership that you're talking about is one of
the two initiatives that are part of the economic development
committee. And the heritage-based tourism as an opportunity
to develop jobs and entrepreneurial activities, that's one
piece. The other is an effort that grew out of the economic
development committee of the Foundation, in collaboration
with the Chamber of Commerce and the Black Chamber of Commerce,
and that is an effort at partnership for economic inclusion,
and that is to work on, at the system level, at change in
a number of ways. Kenny is familiar with some of this as
well, but it's developing mentoring, it's developing access
to capital, and it's developing the entrepreneurial skills.
That is going forward. It began with a conference in September
attended equally by black business folks and by city execs
at a number of levels. So that's a very promising piece,
but the real measure of this, as Rhonda Bellamy said, the
real measure is the success of these long-range initiatives.
Holloway:
Thank you very much. I want
to move now to a different area, but you mentioned, I think,
Rhonda, about your parents not knowing very much about this
issue. Is this issue in the public schools? Is it being
taught here in the New Hanover schools? Is it in the North
Carolina public school history books?
Bellamy:
It hasn't been, but one of
the things that the Foundation did during the past year
was to donate sets of books to all of the high schools of
the fiction and non-fiction that have been written about
1898. And for the past 100 years things have been written,
a lot in the scholarly realm, but certainly some things
that high schoolers could understand. And so that's one
of the efforts that we have.
Holloway:
We want to remind them about,
We Have Taken a City I guess would be good reading as well.
We have another comment or question; sir, go right ahead
please. Male: Yes, my name is James Edward Oliver Hickey
the II and I'm a 7th grader at Noble Middle School. Ms.
Bellamy, how are going to memorialize the victim if you
say that the records don't reflect on who they are? In other
words, if you don't know who to compensate or give reparations
to, how can you memorialize their ancestors?
Holloway:
Let me ask you a question
before you sit down, sir. Middle school is where North Carolina
history is taught, right? Male: Yes.
Holloway:
Have you heard anything about
this in your curriculum? Male: No, they don't put this kind
of stuff in the books. [APPLAUSE]
Holloway:
Rhonda, how are we going to
commemorate these people if we don't know the details?
Bellamy:
There is conflicting information
as to how many people were killed, but we know that at least
9 died as a result of the riots of 1898 and probably many
more. And probably hundreds run out of town or whose lives
were disrupted, and so I don't have to have known Dr. Martin
Luther King to know that his dream was something that I
could believe in, and I don't have to know some of the other
people that lived in history who I follow, and whose memory
I want to keep alive. And so that's how I'm able to.
Holloway:
You all have this event that
has brought people back together-I guess that brought people
apart a long time ago-and it's a very emotional thing here,
and not too many of us, no other city in North Carolina
or the country has this kind of event, I guess, that's been
recorded at a coup d'etat. But what can other cities, do
you think, that are watching this across our state of North
Carolina, learn from what you all have gone through in this
last couple of years in preparation for this commemoration?
Dr. McGivern, do you want to try that?
McGivern:
Well I think it's interesting
and coincidental in a way that this was the same year that
the Presidential commission chaired by Dr. John Hope Franklin
was promoting such discussions around the country. And I
think that just as we learned from other places--like Tulsa
especially, we had the Mayor of Tulsa up here at the very
beginning to tell us about their experience of attempted
reconciliation-so I think that just as we learned from Tulsa
and other places, other places can learn from Wilmington.
We were able to have the kind of leadership and support
that was necessary for a year-long program, and I think
that other places may not have the same kinds of resources,
but nonetheless the book that was produced as a result of
the symposium, That Democracy Betrayed, published by UNC
Press, I think is one of the lasting memorials of the commemorative
year. So I think by looking at the products such as the
book on the symposium, and such as the book that Kenny has
made available again, is certainly one way in which Wilmington
can make a difference.
Holloway:
Has the university involved
that book in its curriculum yet, the one that was published,
or are there plans to do that you think?
McGivern:
It just came out in October,
and I don't know. I suspect that it will be much used.
Holloway:
Let's go to another question
or comment. This may be time for our last one. Go right
ahead, sir. Male: Thank you. There's no doubt that this
coup helped split the black community, and my question is,
are there any plans to help develop some kind of black solidarity
within the community to help with any kind of plans for
economic development?
Holloway:
Now you said split the black
community, not the black and white. Is that what you said?
Male:
Correct, yes.
Holloway:
Okay. Good question.
Male:
And also the community at large, but basically it split
the black community right in half, and we're still simmering
from that today.
Holloway:
We didn't get into that. How
has that happened?
Davis:
I think that what happened
is the community was fragmented. Some people didn't want
to face this issue, some people thought that we were celebrating
instead of commemorating a negative event in our history.
And to kind of answer the young man's question, you have
to do your own research. For years, since almost the inception,
we have a certain viewpoint of history, and it has not reflected
the actual happenings, what actually happened in 1898 or
other events, because other people have always written our
history. So I challenge the young folks to go out to the
libraries, I challenge you to go to the Record of Deeds
office and start looking at the old deeds and looking at
the city directors and find out who these people were. And
again to identify the blacks who were instrumental in making
some things happen in the political and economic area in
Wilmington.
Holloway:
Well we thank you all so much
for participating, and thank you audience for coming out
this evening. I want to thank our viewers for watching too,
and hopefully you found out something about this 1898 race
riot that you didn't know. And maybe you've learned something
from what this community is struggling with. And if they
can deal with this, I'm certain that you can deal with the
issues in your community. I'm Jay Holloway, thank you so
much for joining us. You have a blessed good evening and
a good night. We'll be back next week with Part II of Race
Relations Town Hall Meeting in Wilmington. Thank you, and
have a good night.
