Holloway:
Last week we talked about the 1898 Race Riots in Wilmington. Tonight we'll talk about its political legacy, next on Black Issues Forum. [MUSIC]

Holloway:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host and tonight is part 2 of another Town Hall Meeting. We're in Wilmington, North Carolina on the campus of UNC-W. Last week if you missed us, or if you saw us, we had a discussion on the 1898 commemorative race riot here in Wilmington. And just in case you didn't know or you didn't see it, Wilmington had the only coup d'etat in the history of the United States that was recorded here, 100 years ago. But we are now talking about its political legacy, what is happening here in Wilmington here today, politically, economically, representation and so forth. We've got a distinguished panel and a studio audience here tonight to talk about that. First let me introduce to you Harvard Jennings. Harvard is a talk show host and producer on WAAV news talk radio. Harvard, thank you for being here tonight

Jennings:
Thank you.

Holloway:
Also, Harper Peterson. Harper is on the Wilmington City Council and he is owner of a restaurant here in Wilmington. Harper, thank you for being here with us. Last but not least is Cynthia Brown who is Executive Director of the New Hanover County Community Action. And you are a descendant of one of the, how do you refer to that?

Brown:
Victims.

Holloway:
Victims of the 1898 Race Riot. Let's talk about that now and has Wilmington ever really recovered from something like that that happened 100 years ago, a riot where people were killed and were thrown out. Let's start with you, Cynthia. We talked about last week how emotional that was and the whole idea of paying people back, of compensation and reparations, about the humanity of it versus the economics of it. How has the city recovered and what are you doing today about it.

Brown:
Well, let me first start out by saying that victims, in my mind, don't just include those people who lost their lives. The term victims I use to refer to those people who also suffered any of the direct effects of that event. The city of Wilmington has come some ways over the past 100 years I'd say, however, I don't believe that we fully recovered, even partially recovered from the effects of the 1898 event. The social effect, the economic effect, the political effect, both within the black community and within the community at large continue to suffer from that violent time in Wilmington's history.

Holloway:
What about the political make up. Harper, you are on the City Council here. You see representation, I think, in reading some of the materials, unlike some areas in North Carolina this is not a district representation. How are minorities represented, you think, in proportion to their population here, politically.

Peterson:
I think elections are long overdue. It is being discussed now and I am a proponent of district elections, for the obvious reasons, representation. If we live in a democracy that is driven by capitalism then we need to participate, encourage all to participate in that Democratic form of government and enjoy the rewards of capitalism. And that is not the case today in Wilmington, North Carolina. M: Does that mean a referendum or something will come up?

Peterson:
The Council has the ability to introduce district elections. I think the best form, everybody agrees, is a balance between that large _____ and district elections.

Holloway:
Harvard, you are in my business and you talk with people on the radio every day. How often does the historic come up with what happens today.

Jennings:
Well, history comes up often. 1898 rarely, unless someone calls and brings it up or I introduce it. But when we think about what happened here in 1898 we need to be careful not to extricate Wilmington from the larger picture of the experience of African Americans in the past and present in this country. Because when you ask the question "has Wilmington recovered?" it is very difficult to recover from something that continues to happen, however, more subtly.

Holloway:
Okay, good point. Let's talk now about regaining that political power, because that is what we are talking about recovering from. It is not just having an event where everything was the same as it is today, but at that time blacks were very much involved in the political and the economic environment in Wilmington and that coup d'etat basically took over the political, ran the folks out of town and killed several people. In terms of regaining, is there a plan, I mean, this potential referendum for district elections or at large, will that do it?

Peterson:
That is only the beginning. If we are talking about equal opportunity, choices, not just opportunity but choices, if it is for housing, education, jobs, transportation, I think the black community is left out. And I think again, if we are going to live in a democracy and be proud of the fact that we are a very productive community economically then we need to be inclusive. Everyone needs to have an opportunity and a choice and that is not the case. And I think it is the responsibility of the city government, the elected officials, to reach out and embrace and bring all aspects of our community together. Every neighborhood.

Holloway:
Is it a partisan council of election?

Peterson:
It is non-partisan but everything is politics.

Holloway:
Yes. I understand that this community is not only divided on racial lines but along the political lines too, and not unlike much of North Carolina. But what is unique I guess is that at the turn of the century many blacks were in the Republican party. Is there any sense of the partisan now that there is a return to that or how is that playing into this picture here in Wilmington.

Jennings:
Well, let me just say that politically speaking it is hard for me to conceptualize how we will be much different in terms of our prejudices, our biases, our anger, our frustration, our perceptions of who is at fault, simply because we carry our issues to the political arena. Politics are important, and I don't mean to suggest that that isn't so, but I think it is very important to be realistic and not to put all of our eggs in that one basket. I think that politically speaking the community is divided. I think we don't get adequate representation on local boards and commissions, I think that is a fact. I don't know whether I would hold municipalities accountable for that. I see problems in the community as well. And I don't mind saying that I think it is not smart to run black, I think you need to run smart in this environment. It is a numbers game. If you perceive yourself as a minority numerically speaking then you have to have fairly wise strategies the majority over and forming political alliances and allegiances, and also enabling others to understand your issues. And if you approach that in a confrontational mode or if you paint the whole story black you are going to miss out on, I think, a lot of allies you might have won.

Holloway:
I've heard many success stories like that in the last few decades.

Jennings:
I think Joe McQueen, the local sheriff, is a good example of what I'm saying. You don't see Joe McQueen flying a black flag around the community. Joe tends to respect and respond to the entire community. He tends to be a leader that brings us together rather than splits us apart and I think not only does Wilmington and New Hanover County need that leadership in today's America, but the nation does as well.

Holloway:
Let's go to our microphone. We have our first comment or question from the audience.

Male:
My name is James Hankins, I'm president of New Hanover County NAACP. My question is did this committee come up with a definition, was this a riot or a massacre. To me a riot is when two groups are fighting each other. A massacre is when one group overpowers the other. First, did they come up with a definition of what this actually was.

Holloway:
Anyone from..we talked about that last week and I don't know if anyone on this panel is prepared to answer that.

Jennings:
Well, you know, indirectly let me say that I would consider it a massacre. But then again, I don't extricate it from the general experience of Africans in America. And when you look at how blacks have suffered in this country historically. When you look at how blacks have died and have been deprived, based on race, if you could account for all the deaths related to bigotry and prejudice in this country you would have to say this was part of a national massacre.

Holloway:
Cynthia, you represent a community organization. What are folks on the grass roots level and community people saying about this issue. Last week we talked about that the black community was divided even over having a commemoration. They've confused it with celebration. What are folks saying now. What do they want to do now that that 1998 commemoration is over about 1898.

Brown:
Well, I can only speak for the segment of the community that our agency represents and it is New Hanover County Community Action. We represent those people who are economically disadvantaged and disenfranchised in our community and who are struggling to break the cycle of poverty. Many of the people that we work with on a daily basis have some degree of apathy because their first order of business is survival and breaking out of the shackles of poverty, if you will, that continue to hold them back in society. There was very little participation in the commemoration, if you will, by those people my agency represents. And I think the apathy continues because the effects of the event, massacre if you will, have perpetuated themselves over the years, over the generations and now that segment of the community that we represent again is most concerned about survival, economic inclusion, education.

Holloway:
Well, you know, I need to say because we have been to about nine different communities across the state doing this and inevitably people come up to me after the program or we get calls or e-mail saying some of the same things. The reason you don't have people represented even here, in the audience, in terms of a wide variety, are dealing with those issues. It doesn't mean that people aren't concerned about the issues, but they are concerned with the basic needs and just putting food on the table and just providing for their family and children.

Brown:
And to that extent, if I may say, that is why I believe there must be a wholehearted and a sincere effort on behalf of the community at large to work to correct, reverse, rectify the effects of the 1898 massacre. Economic inclusion is at the top of the list. Because when a person is hungry, when a person is struggling to position himself or herself in society, and they continuously meet with a concrete wall, there is no interest in being involved in the political cog wheels, if you will. There is more of an interest in surviving. And the 1898 massacre had effects that have perpetuated themselves throughout the history of Wilmington since 1898 and we have got to find ways to break that cycle. We have got to stop the perpetuation of those.

Holloway:
Dr. McGiven last week was on this program, from UNC-Wilmington, talked about the humanity issue and we talked about the economic issue. But is there a way to merge the two. Because if you have people that have been oppressed for so long and even if you gave them the money, he is saying, it is not time yet. Is there a way to merge the two where you can take the humanity effort and begin to get people involved in the political effort? You're shaking your head, go right ahead, Harper.

Peterson:
I agree with Dr. McGiven that ethics plays a part in this. But I think the economy, economic empowerment is the key. But let me share a story with you. Ethics makes sense and is real to my seven-year-old son. He attends an inner city elementary school. Last year we had a parade, the Azalea Festival. And one of his fellow students, a young black girl, was told by a young white boy not to attend the parade because there would be men in white hoods and they would take her away. That concerned me. And that is a problem we have at the very heart of our community, the family. We need to address that at an early age. We can all pay lip service to ethics and principles. But if we don't believe and follow through and practice it makes no difference.

Let me share something about economics with you, another story that means something to me personally. Seven years ago, eight years ago we had an Earth Day celebration, the 25th anniversary. And one of our co-directors, a black gentleman, came to me and asked me why it was so important, when he couldn't put food on his table for his children, couldn't find transportation to get to his job in the county, on and on he listed the reasons why Earth Day was secondary in his mind. He needed a job, he needed a house to live in, a safe house. He need the opportunity for his children for a good education. Those are the things that matter and dollars make sense.

Jennings:
Let me just say that I believe that when we talk about economic inclusion I hope we are focused at a very fundamental level with that because blacks don't control much if any of the base resources of this nation. It seems to me that you maintain a serious element of dependency if the inclusion isn't from the ground up. I don't want to be included on the 17th floor. I want to be included at the foundation. I want to control some of the tin, some of the iron, some of the base resources of this country. I think that is a focus that we need. We also need to think in terms of the resources that exist in the black community today and how those resources are allocated in terms of our common interests and needs. Housing, jobs, you know, what can we do in our own community to provide some of those opportunities for ourselves and for others.

Holloway:
Well, that is a topic that many have talked to us about, we could do a whole show on in terms of self empowerment and doing those things. What about other representation. We talked about City Council, but I know you have to have a School Board here and County Commissioners and so forth. Is there black representation there and..

Female:
Not on our Board of Commissioners for New Hanover County and they are scarce on our school board. But I'd like to go back because I'd still..I'd like to go back just to the general issue of inclusion and empowerment to say that when you think about Wilmington's history since 1898 there oftentimes tends to be a misconception of misperception that the black community went into a slump and it remained in a slump. And I don't believe that is true. There's evidence of success stories in our black community in Wilmington. However, there hasn't been absolute evidence of complete breakthrough whatever glass ceiling has existed since 1898. When I go back to that original tabloid that we discussed a little earlier that reported on the events prior to and immediately after the 1898 massacre, one of the tenets of that white declaration of independence was a commitment to ensure that any black person seeking employment would be kept from that employment in lieu of a white person who would seek out the same employment. And that was part of an entire plan to ensure that whites came into Wilmington, found Wilmington a reasonable and wonderful place to live while suppressing the black citizenry here. That has perpetuated itself over the years. Jobs have been controlled. And whether we have some businesses that have managed to break through that ceiling or some individuals to leave, become educated or come into the community anew, we still have that stronghold on employment opportunities. And until people have absolute access to jobs, absolute access to educational opportunities, you can't, I don't believe, see a break in the apathy that exists.

Holloway:
The issue of affirmative action today is going to be played out, probably, in the legacy of this situation?

Brown:
I believe so. Because affirmative action is simply taking positive steps despite all of the misnomers that have been given that term over the years. It simply means taking positive steps. An equal opportunity simply means giving equal access and opportunity. If people are not given that access then the playing field absolutely will not be level.

Holloway:
We have another question or comment. Sir, go right ahead, please.

Male:
Hi, my name is Alex Fletcher, I attend UNC-W, I'm an African American studies minor. I've given a couple of speeches on the 1898 commemorative, the events that happened then, in my public speaking class and I come across a lot of interesting information. I'm from Kinston, North Carolina and the Kinston Free Press was started by Josephus Daniels who went on to the News and Observer and Secretary of the Navy or whatever. I'd like to comment on I like to call it the good ol' boy system of economics. It is not only in Wilmington. It is, I think a consequence of the Wilmington racial massacre, it had an effect on this whole state. And this past summer I was looking for employment in Kinston. I went to the temporary job service, whatever. I got a job working at a window factory. And I was one of like maybe 5% of the white people working there. And I looked around and I said "these people are working hard, they are working very hard, and it doesn't seem like they'll have the opportunity to get out of this job and advance." And I think she is very correct in stating that problem, and it still exists. I've witnessed it and I think there really needs to be something done about it.

Holloway:
Thank you for that insight. The good ol' boy network, it has been going on for some time. And even in the legacy of this declaration. How do we break that?

Peterson:
We have a low unemployment rate in New Hanover County, I believe it is below 3%, but it is deceiving. Because a lot of those jobs are low paying jobs and they go nowhere. We need to give job opportunities and choices through vocational training, votech training in collaboration with the university and community college and industry and business all working together to provide choices for black youth. I don't think they've had that. And we need to start early. As early as elementary school with good role models and the opportunity that is available to them. Encouraging them. And this has to come from the entire community, a comprehensive effort.

Holloway:
: We have another question real quick then I'm going to ask you all to conclude there. Go right ahead there, sir, please.

Male Voice:
My name is Frederick Wall and I have a brief comment and then I'll field a question to the panel for anyone to take it. I think what is interesting that what took place in the 1898 situation took place, unfortunately in the framework of what was supposed to have been an established political process to be exercised in this country. And I'm hearing economic development, inclusion and these type things, which seems to me would still have to take place within the framework of a political system to ensure that these things are going to be effective. How closely are you, in the political arena, looking at the effectiveness of public policy and are these things really going to make a difference. If not we could still have a lot of simmering within the system that is not making a definite change.

Holloway:
If I could summarize, talk about public policy, economic development.

Jennings:
We have recently, this past week, had the US Department of Agriculture confess to racial discrimination and agree to some sort of settlement with black farmers. That is the government of the United States discriminating. When you talk about the political arena, most fundamentally you are talking about the Constitution of the United States. I have great difficulty with that document. For me it is substantially a poem to the extent that it is not realized in the behavior and attitudes of the people in this country, to the extent that we fail to live it out each of us, as individuals, and certainly our government as it represents us, it ceases to exist. So, you know, lately people have been saying there is a constitutional crisis in the country, well it is not a new crisis. The real American dream is the constitution of the United States, it is not a home in the suburbs, a car. And we've been misled to look to that as our dream. But we are really trying to realize here is a social system wherein people cooperate and collaborate and create opportunity to advance all of our lives. And if that is not what America means to us, we can be as political as we like, we can try whatever systemic approaches exist. If we don't get right in our hearts and minds it could easily be an effort in futility.

Holloway:
Harper, a few more minutes, you want to make some concluding comments?

Peterson:
Just a couple of issues, political issues that I'm interested in on the local level. Housing, I've seen statistics that say there are 8,000 families in our community, just in the city, that rent but would like to own a home but are unable to afford that. The North Carolina Housing Finance Agency provides up to $200 million in funds for cities that take advantage to issue revenue bonds so that we can provide good mortgages, low interest mortgages to qualified potential homeowners. And that initiative has never been taken by this city. I think another important area state wide is campaign finance reform. I think that is essential when it comes to black representation, black voice.

Holloway:
Cynthia, do you have the last quick word?

Brown:
Well, these gentleman have addressed the political and economic issues. Education, we didn't really address that this time around but education is critical because if the children today don't understand the basic components and facets of the 1898 massacre, the political, the social, the economic factors that contributed to that event, I'm not going to suggest that people will be murdered on the streets of Wilmington, but the same effect of that riot, or massacre better still, will continue to perpetuate themselves into the next century. And so our children have to receive the education that is needed to be smarter.

Holloway:
Thank you all so very much for participating and thank to our studio audience here in Wilmington. And I thank you for watching. And regardless of whether or not your community has experienced a riot or a coup or a massacre as it was in 1898 here in Wilmington, blacks and other disadvantaged persons all over this state, all over this country, still struggle with economic issues, housing issues, basic education issues. As Martin Luther King says "all of us, in our constitution, have certain inalienable rights." And we want you to think about that and maybe you will think differently about what you think about difficult issues like this and how you can engage yourself to make a difference. I'm Jay Holloway. Thank you so very much for joining us. Next week we'll be in a town hall meeting in Winston-Salem. Until then you have a blessed evening and a good night. [MUSIC]