1998 - 1999 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts

Black Issues Forum #1421

Holloway:

Is there a dividing line in your neighborhood, in your town in North Carolina? Well there is here in Winston-Salem between east and west. We'll talk about that next on Black Issues Forum. Stay tuned. [MUSIC]

Holloway:

Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host. We're in Winston-Salem tonight on the campus of Winston-Salem State University for Part II of another town hall meeting. Tonight we're talking about the dividing line between east and west here in Winston-Salem, and tonight we have with us a distinguished panel. Gene Williams. Gene is the chair of the Human Relations Commission. Mr. Williams, thank you for being with us. Also with us is Mr. Gordon Mailesh, he's a member of the Council of Conservative Citizens in Winston-Salem. Mr. Mailesh, thank you for being with us. Last but not least is Mr. Eddie McCarter, he's the owner of A Special Occasion bookstore. Thank you, Mr. McCarter, for being with us. And thank you to our studio audience for coming back again with us for Part II of this town hall meeting in Winston-Salem. Let's jump right into this dividing line. I understand that it's Highway 52. How real is that here in Winston-Salem? Is there a dividing line between black and white? Who wants to tackle that first?

Williams:

I'll start. Luckily for me, I've only been in the city for approximately a little over 2 years. And upon getting here, it was surprising when I was with real estate people when they were showing me a property, they never showed me anything across 52. And what was in 52 was East Winston. I had some friends that said, "There are some lovely homes in East Winston," and they showed me them, but it was surprising that I was never shown them by any of the realtors who I had, who were white at the time. I was shown North Winston, West Winston, Southwest Winston, Clemmons, etc. So I think, you know, and when you do see that the majority of Winston is--East Winston--is black, and the majority of West Winston is predominantly white, then you can say there possibly is a dividing line with that Highway 52 being that cord, that invisible barrier.

Holloway:

You know, that could be interesting, because you could have also stated that they only showed you the east side because you were black, so maybe it's not as bad as it could be. Let me ask Mr. McCarter. Your bookstore is in east Winston-Salem, the section that he's talking about here, and you've been in this community for a number of years. What's your perspective on this dividing line?

McCarter:
Well there's no doubt about the fact that's a dividing line. I moved to Winston-Salem in 1968, and upon my coming here it was very evident at that time that that was the dividing line. And just like he mentioned in terms of real estate, earlier when I would look for homes or talk with someone, they would only show you in certain areas, and that being in the eastern part. So the only thing that has changed is the fact that now they just flipped it going the other way, and they seem to have a tendency to do that when they have people come into employment here, they try to get people from out of town. And when they bring them in, they don't know the situation, so the only thing they show them is the white side of town.

Holloway:

We had a similar program in Raleigh about this, and it happened to be Southeast Raleigh, and that community is lacking certain types of businesses and economic benefits that North Raleigh has. And I imagine in other cities around the state. are there similar things that East Winston-Salem is lacking that the other part of the city has?

McCarter:
Well, the people probably chuckle, but I've been saying this for years that there are certain things, like you can't get a nail unless you go across 52. Just things very basic, which makes no economic sense at all. At the same time, when you listen at the Board of Aldermen meetings, they're always fussing over whether or not they can put something else over off of Stratford Road. Well, you almost need a police escort to get on Stratford Road. So it's very obvious that this is the dividing line, and the idea is that this is the black part and there's not point in putting anything over there.

Holloway:

Mr. Mailesh, based on what he said, is it safe to assume that you don't live on the east side of 52.

Mailesh:

Yes, we'll it's safe to say that, but I heard Mr. Williams here say that they showed him houses in Clemmons. So I live in Clemmons, so there's no dividing line in Clemmons. But as long as you keep talking about there being a dividing line between east and west, I'm sure it'll stay there.

Holloway:

It's going to stay that way. Okay, we have another question. Sir, go right ahead please.

Male:
Yes, good afternoon. My name is Jimmy Bonham and I'm a resident and a native of Winston-Salem. East Winston is a community that lags behind the rest of the city in economic development, jobs and housing, while enduring a high crime rate. What is it, our panel of guests, what do you think should be done in East Winston to make it look like West Winston, where there's thriving development, nice homes, and more schools? Thank you.

Holloway:

What can be done in this East Winston, and it's a question that many of our communities across the state deal with, where a majority-black area has to compete with resources. It's a human relations issue, too, I guess.

Williams:

I'd start by saying education, first of all. In order to be equal, education has to be equal. We have to bring up, our African-American students have to be as smart as everyone else. So they have to get a good education in order to compete. Next, housing. We have to do things for some of the areas that are dilapidated in East Winston. We've got to do more. There have been some things done, but there's a lot more that needs to be done. Let's look at employment: probably East Winston has the most unemployment if we look at the stats, and I think they would tell us that East Winston has the majority of our Hispanics and blacks who are unemployed versus West Winston. So you've got unemployment, you've got the lack of business, and that was really surprising to me as Mr. McCarter said that there are no businesses, basically, you know, really thriving black businesses, as compared to West Winston. So if you have an inequity, then we are going to have East Winston definitely suffering. So we've got to do something about that. And it's not, I think, the power brokers and political leaders have to take a leadership role in this. You know, we can talk all we want, but until action steps are taken, as Mr. Eversley said, with education, by the Board of Education, by the Board of Aldermen, by the business leaders in Winston-Salem. We have several large corporations, Sara Lee, RJR. And I think it comes from the top. If we want to see things change, where are we doing things with those business leaders, where are we committing resources?

Holloway:

We have some business leaders and I know some political leadership from the House here, from the County Commissioners, and if they would like to come to the microphone, we'd encourage you to, to address that. Let me ask you Mr. Mailesh. How would you, the conservative viewpoint, you represent this conservative organization. What is your view or your constituents' view on how to resolve these problems? Or is it an issue in your mind?

Mailesh:

Well, I consider myself a devout Christian, and I think it's primarily a moral problem. Now, if you people, if certain people spend all their money on dope and whiskey and cigarettes and wild wild women, you can't expect to enjoy all of the benefits of those who spend their money on a home. As soon as the minorities make as much money as the whites, then they move out to Clemmons where I live.

Holloway:

Now, I want to acknowledge that it takes a lot to bring up the point you brought up, and there's quite a bit of commotion and I know a lot of people will disagree. But I can appreciate the nerve that it must take for you to be honest about this, and I know there are a number of people that feel that way. And that's what a discussion like this can do, I think is to bring about this discussion. So I know that there are a number of people that will take issue, and that's the reason why we have this panel. Let's go to a question or comment. I'm sure you want to respond to that.

Male:
Yes, I'd like to say as a young person growing up in Winston-Salem that there is a dividing line between east and west because as a young black male on the east side, you can purchase at a young age alcohol, tobacco, things like that are accessible to you. As far as going to the west side, you can't get that. And now in Winston-Salem there is no place for the youth to relieve their stress. They have nowhere to hang out, so the only thing they're going to do is get in trouble. As far as going to the west side, I think that they have places to hang out. You go on Stratford Road, they can hang out all day and all night without being harassed by the police. So I think that there is a dividing line. [APPLAUSE]

Holloway:

Okay. While we're at the microphone, ma'am, you want to go right ahead too?

Female:
Yes. There is a dividing line, and the human resource person mentioned education. Well I would like to state an incident that happened. I went before a conference hearing at Judge James Beatty's office. In his court, on the very same day, attorneys were dissatisfied with the agreement we made. They went to Greensboro, and Judge Tilley who is a white judge, dismissed the case. So there is a dividing line, and education has nothing to do with it. Because I feel like Judge Beatty is just as qualified as any other judge in the United States, and there is a lack of cooperation, there's a lack of respect and responsibility. And it is a dividing line here in Winston-Salem. And respect, responsibility, and accountability. Who's accountable, you know, for some of the actions that are going on? Thank you.

Holloway:

Mr. Mailesh, can you understand why much of the black community may take issue with the points you are making when we have to live in an environment where the resources are not equitable, where the playing field is not level? You have these situations, and I think that in some way that's what these other two persons were trying to say.

Mailesh:

Well I disagree with you entirely when you say the playing field isn't level. I don't think any group has ever been given as much financial help and moral help as black people by the whites. Affirmative action, affirmative action is what has given you people a leg up on everyone, and I don't feel you've still done anything with it. So I want you to know that my father was nothing but an ignorant coal miner, and I lived in a shack in western Pennsylvania, and I went to school that had no heat except a coal stove in a wood-frame building. Anyone would probably tear the thing down nowadays because they think that that's what makes good schools. That isn't what makes good schools! And if everyone has an opportunity to have an education in this country, and you just heard it on the previous program, and anyone can go to any school they want to. So I think it's about time you quit blaming all your problems on other things and think that there's something more in life than money and economics. There are spiritual values. So maybe you ought to have a program on spiritual values sometimes.

Holloway:

Let me ask Mr. McCarter to respond to you.

McCarter:
Let me respond to Mr. Mailesh. Affirmative action is something that whites had for 200 years. [APPLAUSE] And that's enough said.

Holloway:

We have a number of people in the audience, go right ahead sir.

Murphy:
My name is Arthur Murphy. I was listening to the gentleman in the middle there saying that we've got all these breaks and they're so fair and considerate and compassionate to others, which is not true. Forsyth County is just like Forsyth, Georgia. It's racist. I was accused of a crime that I did not commit. I laid in jail 7½ months. I informed my employees that I couldn't make bail for $100,000. So I informed my employees, "I'm in jail, I can't make bail, I'm not guilty." They rushed to judgment. I'm standing here talking to you. Evidently after 7½ months, I go to court; instead of saying, "Hey, we made a mistake," they justified it. Nineteen years with the City of Winston-Salem. So don't tell me about what you're doing for us. You're not doing anything for us. You're destroying our family. You destroy the head of the family, be it the wife or the husband, you destroy not just one person, you destroy a family. Thank you very much. [APPLAUSE]

Holloway:

Let me ask Mr. Williams, this is a human relations issue, and that's one of the things that a program like this tries to at least encourage dialogue. We can't resolve this issue in a short program, we certainly don't want to make it worse than what it is. But I think we have representation of issues that people feel this way all around the state. How do you get people, like Mr. Mailesh, who are out there. and that's probably why we have this, because we have such a divergent view, how do we get two opposing viewpoints to come together and work together when we're so far apart?

Williams:

That's tough. I disagreed with some of the things, respectfully, that Mr. Mailesh said, a lot of them. That to me has been stereotypical of what we hear, and I heard that when I was in California, I heard it in Wisconsin, Michigan. And we have to get people like Mr. Mailesh to the table, to say "let's educate you. Let's let you know the other side of what's going on," because sometimes it's all well-meaning but all-well-intentioned and not well-purposed. Because Affirmative Action as it was well-stated, was only brought about for one reason, it was to make up for that inequity that was there because whites had the privilege and non-whites did not have the privilege. So when we look at jobs, and Mr. Mailesh said that we all have an equal opportunity at jobs, and that's just not so, you know. I remember coming out of the service when I was a young college-educated man, and did not get hired when there were young white males without a college degree, some without even high school, that were getting jobs. So there's not a level playing field. Now we've made some gains, but I'm not going to say that we've made up for that. So Affirmative Action was necessary, we do have inequity in employment. We have an inequity in the promotions of employment; there's a glass ceiling there.

Holloway:

I want Mr. McCarter to think about, you offset what Mr. Mailesh said earlier because you have set up a business, you came here, you stayed on this east side, and I assume you are successful because you're still in that business. I want you to respond to that, but let's go to another question or comment in the audience. Yes ma'am, go right ahead.

Female:
My name is _________, and I don't really live in Winston, but I go to school here, and I can say that there's a dividing line between East and West Winston. Because you don't even have to go to Highway 52, you just go to a restaurant, and you look at a restaurant and they have Wake Forest University stuff right in front where everybody's eating, and at the back towards the bathroom you have Winston-Salem State University in that area. And that really hurts me every time I go and see that. In East Winston, you can't go to a decent place and get something good, you have to go across town to get something, and there really is a dividing line, and I think it really needs to stop.

Holloway:

Okay. Mr. McCarter, what about the whole point? What do you say to Mr. Mailesh, because you've chosen to stay here. Obviously you don't meet that stereotype that he talked about. What can you say to offset that?

McCarter:
Well, I'm 55 years old, and I've marched and protested, and for people who have that opinion, I've come to the opinion that you can't really change a person's mind. And I think the only thing you can do is wait for the dirt to take care of that situation. And I don't wish anybody any ill will, but there are some people that you just can't convince. And I think in this country everyone is entitled to believe whatever he or she deserves to believe, but some people you just can't change their minds. And I've gotten to the point in my life where I no longer try to change their mind; I just allow them to have their feeling or their belief, and I express mine. I totally disagree with what he's saying, I think it's insane what he's saying, but I'm not going to try to change his mind, he has a right to feel that way. [APPLAUSE]

Holloway:

All right, we'll go back to the microphone in the audience once again. Ma'am, go right ahead with your comment or question.

Bell:
Yes, my name is Tabitha Bell, and with all due respect to you, sir, we've been given the Bible and our land has been taken. It's time out for that. To reemphasize on what the young man said about our children not having nothing in our community, they have everything in the white community. We don't have movie theaters. We don't have little nightspots. They cannot even drive up and down Martin Luther King and cause traffic without the police stopping traffic and saying "Go home, everyone." So you're talking about alcoholics, drugs addicts, and things like that infesting our neighborhoods; that's because our neighborhoods have been infiltrated by the drugs that we don't bring here.

Holloway:

What about. that's the second time that the Christianity and the Bible and the religious aspect has come up. And I have to say that, in all these town hall meetings, we haven't devoted I don't think enough time to the churches or the faith community's responsibility in this. And if anybody would like to address that, I think it's an opportunity, because it's been said that Sunday mornings at 11:00 is the most segregated hour, but it's also been said that pay time is the most segregated time, too. So we've got two times here. Let's go back to the audience here, we have a young gentleman. Go right ahead with your comment or question.

Male:
Good evening. It doesn't take a genius to realize that just about any city in the United States that there is a dividing line, and in major cities, I'm from Chicago, there is a dividing line in Chicago just as well as Highway 52 is the dividing line here in Winston-Salem. As a college student at the campus of Winston-Salem State, I have a question to pose as far as college students. What do you think we should be doing as far as taking on the challenges of education and economics? Because that, sir, is what runs this country besides politics, as we've seen tonight.

Holloway:

Okay, who wants to address that? Yes, go right ahead Mr. McCarter.

McCarter:
One of the things I caution people to do all the time is this: do not spend your money where you're not respected. And I'm going to say it again: do not spend your money where you're not respected. And when you stop spending your money, it's amazing how much respect you can get. And I mean the slightest hint of it. Ask the person straight up; let them give you an answer. If the answer doesn't ring true, then simply don't spend any more money with them, and they will go away.

Holloway:

Why did you set up in East Winston-Salem? Because I assume you probably could have set up anyplace else. But why?

McCarter:
Well there was a need for what we put in that area. We have a bookstore, and we concentrate on books that are and about blacks. We also can get any book that you would want. But you need to set up where it is needed, and we felt that that was something that was needed in that community. So that was our reason for doing that.

Holloway:

We're going to try to move, we've got about 4 people and we've got only about 4 minutes. So sir, we talked to you last week; if you can't be quick we want to move to the next person, but very quickly.

Male:
I'd like to say to my community, white people know us well but we don't know them well. You know, 6,000 years ago, he was crawling around on all fours with his tongue clinging to the roof of his mouth in the caves of Europe, and we put him there. We. The original people. If you go to Genesis and deal with Abraham and his seed, he said, My seed would serve, for God told him we would serve a people for 400 years, and after that time God would judge that people. And if you look into the world of America today, you see the morals being destroyed. And the way we're acting in our community is no more than a mirror of how they were acting in Europe. Okay? But . I know that's a little deep for this situation, but I want my people to understand that we are not inferior. We are the original people of the earth, and we had civilizations and governments far superior to anything that we have been ruled by today.

Holloway:

Okay, let me ask Reverend Eversley, who's behind you-thank you sir-to come in and make another quick point while we've got him.

Eversley:
Since you asked about the religious part, unfortunately I have to agree with some of what Mr. McCarter says. As a Christian minister, when I look at Mr. Mailesh, I have to remind myself that not everybody's going to be saved. Not everybody's going to go to heaven. Now, from a religious perspective, and you've heard a very fine Islamic person. From my own Judeo-Christian perspective, all human beings are radically equal in creation. And all human beings, from a Christian perspective, are radically equal in sin. But the sins may not be the same. In other words, the sin of white folks in race relations is racism itself. Racism is not only declaring another race's inferiority, it's the institution of systemic and cultural power to lower that race's standard of living. For the last 500 years of human history, basically only white folks have had the institutional systemic power to be racist. In race relations, black folks' sin is deceit, it is scratching where nothing itches, it is laughing when nothing's funny, it is "Yassir boss, everything's all right." And so to the degree that we go along to get along, we are sinning in regards to our white brothers and sisters. And so that summarizes my own religious perspective on this thing. When the Holy Spirit descends at Pentecost, the writer who is Luke, the third Gospel writer, makes it very clear that in that room there are Southern Europeans certainly, but there are a lot of black Africans, and there are some Asians and so forth. And everybody hears the Holy Spirit speaking in their own language. And so what Howard Thermin says is you've gotta be at home somewhere to be at home everywhere. So that's why I'm unabashedly and unashamedly both Christian and Afrocentric, because that's what God created me to be.

Holloway:

Thank you. Mr. Mailesh, is it safe to say that your perspective, that you do believe that blacks are inferior to whites? And if so, why do you believe that?

Mailesh:

Well, I wouldn't say that. Let me first say that I lived in an integrated community for 17 years. I lived in an integrated community from the time I was 50 until the time I retired at the age of 65 or 66. But I look at history, and I look at the culture that the Chinese had 3,000 and 4,000 years ago. I look at the culture that the Greeks had 2,000 years ago. I look at the culture that the Romans had 1,500 years ago, and I look at the culture of Western Europe. So you make up your own mind.

Holloway:

All right, we have one minute. If you all can be real quick, we can get both of you in.

Male:
Yes sir. My name is Collis Winston, I'm a student here but I work in the city of Winston-Salem as a counselor at Winston Lake YMCA. And I notice that if you go to the YMCA in the middle of the city, that there wouldn't be any traffic stops there. Where the other day I was at work, and at _____ Y we take care of over 40 to 50 little young Afrocentric kids. There was a roadblock, they were checking licenses. This was the third time this year that that has happened. Why do we send police officers in front of the YMCA to stop people, and not in the middle of the city at the other Y?

Holloway:

Okay. We've about run completely out of time, and certainly want to thank all of our studio audience. Sir, I'm sorry we're not going to be able to get to the last comment or question here. I want to thank the studio audience for coming tonight, and I want to thank each of our guests for coming, talking about such a difficult and emotional issue. This has been an enlightening discussion, and hopefully you at home and across the state, we want you to think about the impact that you have on race relations and what you can do to improve race relations and make a difference, and think about the role of the church, the role of business. And if there's a dividing line, which there probably is in your city, what can you do about removing that and wrapping it up? We want to thank you so much for viewing Black Issues Forum. Join us again next week for another town hall meeting. I'm Jay Holloway, you have a blessed evening, and good night.