1999 - 2000 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts
Episode #1511
Cicily Wilson
January 7, 2000

Holloway: I'm Jay Holloway. And tonight we have a special program for you. Perhaps during September of '99 you watched the PBS documentary 'American Love Story'. '"An American Love Story". Well tonight that's the subject of our program. It's really about family diversity and love and communication and others. We're going to talk about that with a guest from that program and other guests from North Carolina.

Voiceover: This Program is made possible in part by contributions from UNC-TV viewers like you.

Holloway: Good evening and welcome to another edition of Black Issues Forum. I'm your host, Jay Holloway. Tonight we'll feature '"An American Love Story." It's more than what you may think. It's a PBS series that ran recently in September of 1999. But really, after watching this program, we hope that you might expand your horizons on issues of family, love, and diversity.

Well, you may have seen the PBS series on UNC-TV and PBS this past fall. But if you didn't, we're going to talk more about that tonight. Let me introduce our distinguished panel of guests to you. First of all, Cicily Wilson, thank you for flying in from New York, and I understand you just told me that you spent the night in LaGuardia Airport and you're here bright. We thank you for talking to our audience this late at night.

Well, Cicily, let me say Cicily Wilson is Director of Development and Communications at a community school of the arts and one of the subjects in the American Love Story documentary. You're actually the daughter of the couple that is primarily featured. And if I could hold up this for our director there. This is a program guide, just in case you missed it. You can contact us at the number and web address on your screen and we'll be happy to send this to you, that can help you understand more about the program on 'American Love Story' if you missed it. Or we can also let you know how to get the tape from PBS if you missed that as well.

Also let me introduce next Dr. Marvin Thompson. He is Professor at St. Augustine's College in Allied Health. He's also formerly with the U.S. Department of Agriculture in a major research lab there. Dr. Marvin P. Thompson. Thank you so much for being with us.

Thompson: Thank you, Jay.

Holloway: Alright. And last but not least, your wife, Dr. Brenda Alston Mills. She's a Professor at N.C. State University in Animal Science, nutrition, physiology, and biotechnology. Is that right?

Mills: Yes.

Holloway: Mouthful, but we're delighted to have you both with us as well.

Mills: Thank you.

Holloway: The program, we've entitled this episode '"An American Love Story," really features Cicily's family. And a producer spent how many years in your home in a program that perhaps many of us have already seen? And what was really, do you think, the purpose of this series and what should people get out of it?

Wilson: Well, she spent a year and a half filming us, and did interviews all the way until the end. Probably until this year. And I think the biggest thing that we want people to take away is the feeling of love. And that everyone deserves respect.

Holloway: Now one of the issues people may have already figured out that we're talking about are interracial marriages, interracial relationships. But the program that was on PBS was really more about that, as was '"An American Love Story." One of the episodes, you talked about going to Africa to really find out more about your identity. Do you want to explain that to our audience?

Wilson: Well, I went to Nigeria for a study group. And I figured, you know, I'm never going to have a chance to do this again. And I probably never will. And it was a wonderful experience, a huge learning experience. Traumatic, yes. But something that had to happen to me in terms of finding out who I am. Everyone has to go through that.

Holloway: Did you say traumatic?

Wilson: Traumatic, yes.

Holloway: Explain that.

Wilson: Just, I think, the racial tensions that happened in that group. The experience for me was traumatic because I'm from both cultures and I respect both cultures because of my parents. So for me it was difficult to try and deal with a situation that was tense because of a racial problem. Because personally, in my own home, I've never experienced that. So it was really in my face all the time and in a foreign country.

Holloway: Speaking of parents, we have a couple here, an interracial couple. Marvin and Brenda, have you all had any traumatic experiences, any tensions that you care to share and put some perspective on it? Either of you like to start with that first?

Thompson: We have had some interesting experiences. For example in North Carolina we've, I have been refused service because I was associated with African American people. And Africans as well. And that was rather traumatic for me. Brenda understood this much better than I did. And she said, be careful, let's make sure we choose our battlegrounds.

Holloway: Was that early on in the relationship and . because of your background, Brenda, you were prepared for that, you think, more than Marvin was?

Mills: This is a, I think, very new experience. Many times when-and I call this, with the due respect to everyone, White Man's Revelation-many times we have an opportunity to let people know that, yes there are still problems, and all is not well just because we're in the 1990s. We've been served cold food. We've been not served at all. And people are like, "Gee, you know, in today's times does that really happen?" Well, yes, it does. And we're..we've experienced that.

Holloway: And I guess we need to start saying now in the new millenium.

Mills: Right, yes, yes.

Holloway: Let's go back to you, Cicily. Your parents, and I'm assuming you will be, if not have been, receiving a lot of attention. You talked off-camera earlier that it's beginning to set into you the impact of this series. But how.have your parents talked to you maybe about some of the issues that they've had growing up? Now your parents were married, have been married over 30 years, right?

Wilson: Actually over 20 years but they've been together 30. They always talked about it. I think that was part of our education as children. We knew that from the earliest age what had happened to them because we knew that it was going to happen to us. And of course we always go through certain things that will always happen to us, you know, not get served or not know that we're together, assume that we're not. And worse things than that. But, you know, it's going to continue to happen, they're right.

Holloway: Now, here's an interesting question for you, Cicily. Knowing that there's potential tension there just by the nature of interracial relationships, but you're the product of an interracial marriage. So would you, would it be considered interracial marriage whether you married white or black?

Wilson: Yes.

Holloway: So you're gonna be regardless, you're gonna be...

Wilson: It's funny, everyone asks, "So would you consider an interracial relationship?" I said, "I guess I would have to either way." I guess I would have to if I want to have a relationship, yes.

Holloway: Well do you identify, which culture do you identify with more or is that a fair question?

Wilson: I guess it's a fair question. I think I identify more with the African American community only because they knew what I was gonna go through. So you have to raise your child to prepare for the future. So you prepare them in the best way you know how and that's who I am. Everyone's going to see me as that for the rest of my life and that's just the way it is.

Holloway: Let me ask our couple. You all live here in North Carolina but you've moved here years ago from another part of the country. But particularly the Northeast, have you noticed differences in acceptance here in the South versus the North, of interracial couples?

Thompson: Well, I think since it's such a new experience for us, Jay, to begin with, we really haven't noticed that to any extent. Have you Brenda?

Mills: Not between the North and the South. I think people look at Marvin anyway because he's got these cute little blue eyes and long hair. And I think most people think we're strange anyway. And just the fact that we're a mixed couple as the case may be, I think ___ says, "Yeah, well you'd expect that out of them because they're both really strange." So.but we've had some strange looks in both the North and in the South but I think because we live in the South, very often it's a little bit more of a sensitivity issue.

Holloway: Let me pick up on that White Man's Revelation you mentioned earlier. You want to expound on that?

Mills: I think that people don't understand that there are issues. And for us there are very definitive issues. And I think whether we are anything that is non-white, and so I'm including the entire realm of diversity there, non-white male as the case may be. And very often when you make the rules you makes the rules, and so any problems that are associated with those rules are non-issues. And suddenly when someone comes along and says, "You mean there really is a problem?" It's like, hello! We've been trying to tell you this for years. And I think if you talked with people who are Native American, people who are Hispanic, people that are Asian, they don't all do Kung Fu. I think there are issues there that people just don't know about.

Holloway: Well, let me ask all of you this question, and each of you respond if you'd like. About the difference between whether it's a black male and white female, as in your parents, Cicily, or a white male and black female. Are there different issues you think because of those dynamics or are they the same?

Thompson: Well, I would think, Jay, based upon my experience, that being white and dominant in this society which really wants that, it's basically much easier for Brenda and I than it might be for a black male and a white female. So I haven't felt, basically, we haven't felt basically that we've been abused or excessively ill-treated as many interracial couples have. And I think part of the reason for that is the dominant male..white male figure. Plus the fact that we're both professionals.

Mills: Yeah, yeah, that's a big thing to do with it.

Thompson: ..makes a big difference. Because we move around in crowds which, irrespective of race, and are very well-received.

Wilson: Intellectuals.

Thompson: Intellectually, mmhmm.

Mills: Yeah, yeah, I think that's.

Holloway: You want to pick up on that? Because I wonder if socioeconomics plays a role in this.

Wilson: I mean, part of the race problem is an economic problem. And it's just a circular thing. I mean, what is causing it, race or economics? Or does economics cause, you know, where you are on the totem pole, so to speak. And if you're in a lower economic class, I mean obviously you're gonna have to deal with certain issues that come up otherwise. And you're just an excuse to be upset, you know? So you're dealing with academics, in the academia, and it's totally different.

Thompson: Precisely.

Holloway: Have you talked with your father, with him being a black male, about him..do you think he would agree with Marvin?

Wilson: I really don't know. I'm in an interracial relationship now as you know. But he's white. But yet I still, we still get the looks. We still get treated differently. It doesn't really matter, I think.

Mills: Well in a sense for us too, we're older, and I think a lot of times when people see the young that are involved in these relationships, it's like, is this defiant? Are they doing this for a reason? We have no ax to grind, we're older, we're professionals. And I think that really does have a bearing. And in a sense it may have more of a bearing than the fact that he's white and I'm black. I'm not sure about that.

Holloway: I want to move to what I think, in our research in watching the program and as we prepared, is a common threat regardless of socioeconomics. That, which is probably the root of the documentary that you were part of, Cicily, is that we're really talking about A Love Story and communication and people versus race really. Because you, as a couple, Marvin and Brenda, mentioned earlier when we were talking, that I don't know if you want to share, about how you didn't go out intentionally looking for someone of the opposite race.

Mills: No, that was not my intention at all. But it was very interesting, when I saw him I just thought he was the cutest thing I had seen in a long time. And I fell in love with him. And he claims he fell in love with me on the telephone. So, it just happened. We still enjoy each other. We laugh a lot. He thinks I'm crazy. I'm a very anecdotal type of person and very often I'll tell these little stories. And I don't mean them to be funny and he's over there just laughing away and I look at him and I say, "I amuse you?" And he says, "Yes, you amuse me!" So, we have a fun relationship and I think that that whole things stems out of a love thing. It has nothing to do with whatever color he is or whatever color I am. We just like each other's company.

Holloway: Do you agree, Cicily, and from the..

Wilson: Totally agree. I mean it's, part of this movie is trying to disseminate the thought of, it's always jungle fever. It's unconditional love. I mean it's about family. It's about being with each other and enjoying each other. No matter what. And it really doesn't matter. I mean, the issue comes up when other people...

Mills: That's right.

Thompson: That's right.

Wilson: . do something and you're all of a sudden aware. "Oh, wait a second," you know, so.

Holloway: What about the other criticism? You talk about the jungle fever but the other side of it, maybe it's part of the jungle fever, of the, I don't know whether it's self-hate or not liking your own so you want to go to the other. Have you all ever dealt with that criticism?

Thompson: Well, go ahead and then I'll follow up ___ you.

Holloway: You're on the spot.

Mills: Yeah, I am. I don't know that that was so much an issue. As I said, people think I'm a little strange anyway. So they said, "Well, gee whiz, that's typical Brenda." So I'm not sure that that was the issue at all. My ex-husband was African American so it really wasn't a rebellion by any stretch. As I said, I just saw him and I thought he was cute and I just fell in love with him. So..and it probably would have been.it was him. It had nothing to do with what he was.

Thompson: It's a very strong affection for, and love and appreciation for who that individual is. And what that individual contributes not only to my life but to the lives of hundreds of other people. And as a..

Mills: He's my biggest fan.

Thompson: Well, she's a marvelous teacher and she's well-recognized at North Carolina State as being a mentor, a professor, an instructor, a communicator, a singer.

Holloway: Oh, Cicily is too.

Mills: Yeah that's right, Cicily. ______ make you want to scream.

Wilson: No, no!

Holloway: You want to comment on the same issue, Cicily?

Wilson: I agree with everything that they said. I mean, it's just about respecting someone and really truly enjoying that person and their spirit. It has nothing to do with color. And I think that's the biggest thing that, problem that we have today. And the biggest issue of this movie, if that's what you want to focus on.

Holloway: So if, as a product of an interracial couple, you would really have even more difficulty having a part of, hating part of either race because that's part of both of you, indirectly?

Wilson: Right, exactly. And that's part of my problem with Nigeria. Because they want you to choose. Be black or be not. A sell-out, or something. So I mean, that's just an impossible choice. You can't do that.

Holloway: It's mentioned in I think this guide or you mentioned in the program where some of your black colleague classmates talked to you about that being a sell-out. I think that was in the documentary. How do you respond to that? Do they..

Wilson: Then?

Holloway: And now. And have you changed your perspective now?

Wilson: Well, you know, at that point we were all adolescents. We were all trying to find ourselves and part of them trying to find themselves, and me too, is seeing who other people are. And what are you, you know? Choose. You have to be on my side or no side. You're not gonna be a part of me. And I think regretfully that happened to me. And, you know, that's something I had to go through, was going to happen. So it happened.

Holloway: One other question, just to get this off the table. When a child is born in an interracial couple, do you know who chooses which race and what goes on the birth certificate? Who makes that decision and when is that done? Do you know?

Wilson: Oh, on the birth certificate? Oh, probably just the nurse just looks and just says, you know, "Oh," you know. Probably, I don't know.

Holloway: Yeah, I mean that's an interesting question. And how is your ethnicity listed?

Wilson: Oh, I don't know.

Holloway: So that's a good question.

Mills: Can I make a comment on that?

Holloway: Yes, please.

Mills: You know, I think that's a problem and that's kind of my pet peeve. Why should she have to choose? Why should society put that on her? I don't think that's a fair, I don't think it's a fair choice. And I think the sooner that we as a group of people in general understand the fact that it is not necessary to be slotted, because when they slot you, then they put all of these other characteristics on you. And then if you act outside of those characteristics, I don't want to get on my soapbox here but this is really a pet peeve.

Holloway: Go ahead.

Mills: When you start to act outside of those characteristics, then they don't know what to do with you because you're not quite fitting into that slot that they put you in.

Wilson: ___, ____ you in a box.

Mills: So, they put you in a box. And I really have a problem with that.

Holloway: Well speaking of that, we're at the new millenium. And the census is upon us. And I think there are, what, about eight, five categories, and people will have to choose. And you can choose to list or not to list I guess. You can choose multiple ones that is. But that's an interesting concept.

I want to move now quickly to the whole, and I started moving to the root of what this documentary was about, but what you all share in common is dealing with people and communications skills as opposed to the racial issues. And let's move to that discussion now. That, we talked about the dialogue that, at least many of us in our production team, that was done in your program. And you all talked earlier about that you have such good communication skills. These are probably things that those of us in whichever race and in whichever family can learn. Good communication skills, good dialogues, spending time with your family. Are you okay to talk about that? We have just less than three minutes, believe it or not.

Thompson: I think communicating is an important thing. And I think communicating is something, Jay, and each one of us, that it takes time and it takes effort. And it takes paying attention to each other. And paying attention to the other person's needs. And I see that not only at home with Brenda, but I see it with each of my students at St. Augustine's College. Communicating with those students, those kids, I call them my kids, is an important facet of my life. And I think they understand that. Because most of my kids are African American. Or at least of African descent. And they want that kind of communication. And therefore they can respect me as an individual. Not only as a white individual, but as a person who communicates with them.

Holloway: Would you like to..go right ahead.

Wilson: I just wanted to say communication is a huge part of family life. And I think part of our family is understanding that we don't understand always the other person and what they're going through. And that's part of it. Listening and just being there. And knowing that you will never know what they go through. But respecting the pain that that person feels. And knowing that it exists. Acknowledging that it exists.

Holloway: Brenda, do you want..

Mills: It's the sensitivity. Again, to just reiterate Cicily's comments and Marvin's comments, just the sensitivity to the needs of others. And take the time to understand or at least try to understand that there may be a problem and you may or may not be able to help them solve it, but if you're there for them, they know that they can just have you there for support. And I think that's the..the communication is just absolutely critical.

Holloway: I want to know if you all can take 10 or 15 seconds at the most and just give us some final statements if you want to say to those people out there, what would you leave them with, briefly? Let's start with you Brenda, since you've got it we'll go right ahead, real quickly, please.

Mills: Very quickly, just don't make assumptions about people. Allow people to be the individuals that they are and stop trying to put them in boxes.

Holloway: Marvin.

Thompson: I think I would just tell people to be very, very sensitive to the needs of others, just as Cicily said. Be very sensitive. And realize that, hey, each one of us has a problem in this life. And be concerned about it.

Holloway: And last but not least, Cicily.

Wilson: Tolerance in every walk of life. Always exhibit and always practice tolerance.

Holloway: Well you all have been wonderful guests. And thank you for sharing such personal information with people in the public, and we certainly hope and I think we have, after watching this program, that we have expanded our horizons on issues of family, love, and communication. And we thank you so much for being with us.

All: Thank you.

Holloway: Once again, if you'd like more information on the PBS documentary, '"An American Love Story," write to us at the numbers on your screen, our address, or visit our website. And we'd love to send you the information. Once again, we'd like to thank you for watching Black Issues Forum. Join us next week for a live call-in. Same time, 11:00 Friday night on Black Issues Forum. And until then you have a blessed evening and a good night. I'm Jay Holloway. Take care.

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