1999 - 2000 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts
Episode #1512

Holloway: This weekend many of us are thinking about the legacy of Martin Luther King, yet North Carolina's NAACP and black colleges are receiving hate mail and the Confederate flag is still up in South Carolina. We'll be taking your calls about these topics and others, next on Black Issues Forum. Stay tuned.

Male: This program is made possible in part by contributions from UNC-TV viewers like you.

Holloway: Good evening and welcome to another live edition of Black Issues Forum. I am your host Jay Holloway, and we're taking your calls tonight. Our topic: Martin Luther King's legacy of speaking out and doing something about equality, civil disobedience and civil liberty. But we are here in the year 2000 and many of the issues are still the same: hate mail to the NAACP and to black colleges, and the Confederate flag still flying in our southern neighbors' of South Carolina. Here to talk about these issues tonight we have Ronald White, President of the South Central Wake Branch of the NAACP, and Reverend H. P. Pickett. Pickett is the second Vice President of the State's Conference NAACP and the President of the Raleigh-Apex branch of the NAACP. Gentlemen, thank you for being with us tonight on this cold night to talk about some hot topics.

Pickett: Thanks for inviting us.

White: Thank you.

Holloway: Something as soon as this Monday, the NAACP has sent out a national media advisory: "NAACP march and rally to remove the Confederate Flag atop the South Carolina State House," signed Kweisi Mfume, NAACP President, this Monday the 17^th at 9 a.m. I assume people, you all are organizing to go down from North Carolina?

Pickett: Yes, we will be having a bus leaving from Goldsboro and coming on through Raleigh perhaps, and then Greensboro and other points of departure in North Carolina.

Holloway: So here's a topic, and we look at the King legacy and we think about 30, 35 years ago when it was, you saw the Confederate flag up a lot, but it is still there. How do we see this juxtaposed against celebrating King's holiday? Here it is, the year 2000: who would have thought we would have been going down, on his holiday, to try to remove a confederate flag? Why do we still have these issues? I mean, you probably can't answer, it is probably an unfair question, but isn't it ironic in the year 2000, Ron?

White: Yeah, it is. Many people always say that the Confederate flag doesn't mean anything, but it has this history and we are trying to overcome the negative history that the flag carries for us throughout the South. There are a lot of people that still feel like this flag is a prominent issue, and we're trying to remove some of the things that have been a black cloud over us for a length of time.

Holloway: We want to put the number up on the screen: I think it is right now; 1-800-555-3120. We are talking about the Martin Luther King legacy, and are you really making a difference? Here we are in the year 2000; The NAACP this Monday is trying to make a difference. What are you doing to try to make a difference with some of the things King stood for? Give us a call, let us know what your opinions are and if you have questions for our State NAACP or local chapters, give us a call as well. Reverend Pickett, at this rally, I mean the Confederate supporters have just had a rally down in South Carolina. The NAACP, what do we hope to gain, what do you hope to gain from a rally? It was successful in the '60's and maybe the '70's, but is a rally going to make a difference?

Pickett: Yes, we believe a rally will make a difference. We'll have people not just from North Carolina but from other states as well. As you know the President and CEO Mfume will be there and he will be the main speaker at the rally, and of course we hope to have several thousand people there just as the other group did, in terms of the ones that rallied in favor of the Confederate flag. But we believe that this will show the solidarity of the people of good will, not only in North Carolina and South Carolina but throughout the nation, as they come to voice their opinion there about whether or not the Confederate flag should fly over the State house there in the State of South Carolina.

Holloway: Okay. We have our first caller tonight in Cabarrus County. We'll go right ahead with your comment or question please? It sounds like we may have lost him already. Did we lose the caller? Okay, once again the number is on your screen; 1-800-555-3120. If you have questions or comments, we'd love to take those comments or questions.

Well, let me ask either one of you gentlemen about this issue of the Confederate flag. Are you finding that this is an issue that both blacks and whites in North Carolina agree that the Confederate flag should be moved or taken down, or are you running into people here in North Carolina that are in favor of the Confederate flag?

Pickett: Well, I've spoken several times on radio stations in the Raleigh area, and I have found that you have people on both sides, that some who are in favor of the Confederate flag continuing to fly over the State capitol wherever. But we are of the opinion that it is something that should be placed in a museum and stay there for the simple reason that it does not represent the majority or most of the people in North Carolina, South Carolina or anyplace else. The Confederacy and well, the North and the South had the war, and the North won, and of course because of that we have what is called the United States of America, not the United States of the Confederacy, and so I believe that the United States flag which we give our pledge of allegiance to is the flag that should be flown over the State house, and one that represents all people, not just a particular group of people.

Holloway: Let's go to another caller. Everett from Southern Pines, you are on the air, and how do you feel about the flag in South Carolina, the Confederate flag?

Male: Well I have mixed feelings, you know, because this is a new millennium and we've been persecuted as a people under both flags, if you really want to get technical about it. Even the Indian has been persecuted under the American flag, the one that we pledge allegiance to, so neither flag has been very good to us, and personally I've always felt as if it should come down, okay? Because it is a very negative reminder, but even when I look at our own flag I think of the prejudice that the black soldiers faced when they came back from W.W.I and W.W.II, not to mention Vietnam. And so both flags have abusive memories for our people, and at some point in time we're just going to have to put that in the past and go on, but be alert and aware to people who might try to harm us as a people, and you know, keep vigilant as these two professionals are doing here on your show tonight.

Holloway: Will you support the NAACP in its rally to remove the Confederate flag?

Male: Well you know, I am kind of ambivalent about it because both flags have such negative connotations and.

Holloway: So you are not saying to remove the United States flag are you?

Male: Well, I am saying that, you know, if we are going to remove the Confederate flag, we have just as strong a case for removing the United States' flag because we've been persecuted under both of them.

Holloway: Okay. Thank you so much for your call. We'll go to another caller right now. Caller, you have a question or comment on the Confederate flag in South Carolina? Go right ahead.

Male: Yes, I am sort of like the other guy, I am a little ambivalent too, but the flag, the Confederate flag is a part of history, but it is also a part of black history because there were 25 to 50 thousand black soldiers that were free that fought for the South. And one of the things that Jefferson Davis said after the war was over, if the South had won, they could never go back to slavery on account of all the blacks that did take up arms. And also Lincoln didn't fight the war to free the slaves: that only became an issue at Antietam. So you know, it is part of history, and I don't see how you want to take one section of history and do away with it while you uphold another section of history.

Holloway: Okay. Allrighty, well thank you for your comment. We have some other callers. You all want to comment on these ambivalent callers, so we'll see both sides of the issue.

White: Well I kind of go along with Reverend Pickett when he stated to maybe put the flag in a museum, and for history to go ahead and preserve it, like the two callers were just stating. I don't see anything wrong with it, but also, we have people that are in South Carolina, they are tired of that flag being flown and they want it removed now. Just today I think they lost seven to ten million dollars in revenue from December to now, during the Yule-time season, the Christmas season, because the natives of South Carolina are coming to North Carolina and to Georgia. They are not showing support. The other side, media is telling us that nobody else is supporting this Confederate flag because they have lost numbers of conventions that generally come to South Carolina. So it is a message being sent across the nation about the Confederate flag, that not only people of color but everybody is tired of this flag waving at the Capitol of South Carolina.

Holloway: We have another caller, I didn't get where this caller is from, but caller go right ahead. Do you have a comment or question about the Confederate flag on the State Capitol in South Carolina? Okay, did we lose that caller? Okay, well one of the things that the last caller brought up which I thought was interesting is that there were thousands, 25 thousand black soldiers that fought for the South. So I guess his conclusion is that therefore, you know, it should be up for that reason too.

White: Okay, but the thing is, the question is whether or not they were doing it on their own volition in terms of whether they really decided themselves to do it. If they had a choice between fighting with the North over against the South, I wonder whether or not they would have fought with the North when they knew that the North was the one that was really trying to free them? And the question about President Lincoln: we know that President Lincoln didn't really want to free the slaves, that he did everything he could, and when it came down to whether or not he could save the Union, then he decided that, "hey, I better go ahead and do something about this because if not, I am going to lose the Union and then all of us are going to end up in slavery." And so you know, that is I believe the reason why he came out with the Emancipation Proclamation, and we just celebrated, as my fellow President would let you know, just celebrated Jubilee Day, in which we had the Emancipation Proclamation read as a reminder to all of us that never will we forget our history in terms of from whence we have come.

Holloway: Good point. We are going to take our last caller on this topic and talk more about King's legacy. Caller from Little Washington, go right ahead please with your comment or question. Do we have that caller? Caller go right ahead. Okay, we seem to be having some, uh. Okay, lets try, we have another call from Cabarrus County?

Male: Yes.

Holloway: Okay, go right ahead. Is this Gary?

Male: Yes, how are you?

Holloway: All right. Thank you for calling.

Male: Good evening gentlemen. I just tuned in to your topic here, and you know I have been keeping up with it on the news, but are those not the African flag colors you are showing on the screen there?

Holloway: Well, you mean the colors of the program Black Issues Forum?

Male: Yes, correct.

Holloway: Yeah, that is our logo. That is not necessarily, well you know Africa is a continent, so these are endemic, those colors are endemic when people think about the red, the green, purple and yellow.

Male: Yeah, they remind me of the African Nation flag there. I just wondered if that is not their flag colors?

Holloway: Well you know, there is not any one African Nation.

Male: Well there are many nations.

Holloway: .Within the continent of Africa, yes.

Male: But we see these colors on t-shirts and what have you, and with the African continent displayed. Why should I not take offense to that?

Holloway: Well, okay. Let me, uh. So your question is, the logo for this program.?

Male: Yeah, it is displayed as sort of the African flags that I have seen on the bumpers of cars of you know, black folks, and also on t-shirts with the African Nation and the African hats, and what not.

Holloway: Okay.

Male: So why should I not be offended by that?

Holloway: Okay, well let me make a brief statement first and ask our guests to comment on that. I can tell you that that logo was developed about five years ago to signify colors. The red, black and green does symbolize a lot of African heritage of land, blood and the color of our people, and we put some other colors in there, but this is not, this is a television-program logo. It is not representing any State government or State Capitol. Comments you want to make on that before we go to any other callers?

White: Reverend Pickett, I'll give.

Pickett: Okay. Well, when I look at it primarily, when it come downs to something that black people identify with or black people have something to represent, there is something wrong with it. You know, just like we have what is called "black dollar day", where we teach our dollars and cents, in terms of we say, "why don't you make sure that you look out for your own people's business so that they can stay in business and turn around some dollars within your community." Well, they take offense to that, because we're trying to help ourselves. But yet and still, when there was such a thing as welfare, and people were getting money in terms of welfare, well, "those welfare queens", and "you ought to stop those people from people from having the opportunity to drive around in those Cadillacs and do all of those different things", making fun of people, some people. There were people who had a special need as far as being on welfare. They weren't on welfare because they wanted to be, they were on there because they had to be in order to feed their children. And so as far as the dashiki or whatever else that we want to use in terms of trying to identify with our history, you know, that is our right as a people. But when it comes to the Confederate flag flying over the Capitol, which supposedly represents everybody, then I have a problem with it because it does not represent me. I did not have anybody that I know of in my family fight on the side of the Confederates in terms of doing the rebel call and everything else. And so it does not represent me, and I am sure my brothers and sisters in terms of those who look like me, most of them would say the same thing. And so put it in the museum. It is a part of history yes, and a part of your heritage, and I would say more power to you.

Holloway: Okay. We are here on the weekend of the Martin Luther King holiday and many of us are thinking about the legacy of Dr. King, and I want to move to that topic now, talk about his legacy and some of the issues related to that. We have our first caller: do you have a comment or question or did we lose that caller as well? Okay, lets try. Do we have another caller about the Martin Luther King legacy? I didn't get where this caller is from. Okay Eileen? Do we have Eileen there from New Hanover county?

Female: Yes, this is Eileen.

Holloway: Yes Eileen, go right ahead please with your comment or question.

Female: Well I called of course first about the flag, and you are just now.

Holloway: Oh, go right ahead.

Female: .Getting to me, so I apologize. I am very proud that North Carolina does have the Martin Luther King holiday, so I will comment that much on it, and I do know quite a bit of his heritage and am proud of many things about him. About the flag, I will be brief since you wanted to go on. Certainly based on some things other callers have said, I certainly think the U.S. flag should stay atop the, in South Carolina, not because I am extremely attached to it, I don't wear it a lot, but it is our national flag. And I don't think I necessarily want to say that the Confederate flag should stay atop. The museum thing, that idea is excellent with exceptions for such things as, for example here in Carteret County there are historical reenactments which many people go to and of course they do it in many other States where the Confederate flag is part of reenactments and so forth. And I am talking about legitimate, recognized, sanctioned-type things. And so I think those things should be taken into consideration. North Carolina was not a State that, I think we got drug kicking and screaming into the Civil War.

Holloway: Eileen, we don't have much time left. Do you have a question, or are those your comments?

Female: Those are my comments.

Pickett: I'm from Morehead City in Carteret County.

Holloway: Oh okay. Reverend Pickett is saying hello, he's from your home town. Okay, and we have one more call we are going to get in before we move on. I think this is Pedro. Do you have a comment or question please sir?

Male: Well yes I do.

Holloway: Go right ahead.

Male: A comment for the gentleman from Cabarrus County.

Holloway: Yes.

Male: He had some question about the clothing or the styles that black Americans wear pertaining to Africa. Now this is a cultural thing which offends nobody, but the Confederate flag represents political oppression, and when we look at that, we look at it in the same light as the Jews look at the swastika. It represents oppression. There is nothing that nobody can say or revisions in history can change it. It represents repression and that is what we think about. That is why the war was fought and that is why the flag was created. It represents black repression.

Holloway: Okay, Pedro. Thank you so much for your call. Speaking of that, let me just hold this up, because this. You can only probably see the swastika that he is talking about, it is probably difficult, but the NAACP has received this hate mail. This is a copy that the Reverend Pickett shared with me that, just as a letter that North Carolina Central University, Fayetteville State University and St. Augustine's College, amongst other black colleges in the country have received hate mail from persons with the swastika, and many of them came from a Fayetteville post-office, which we saw. We are talking about, in a legacy of Dr. Martin Luther King where these things are still happening. We are going to take one last call, and who do we have here for our last call? Chuck from Robeson County, go right ahead briefly please.

Male: Yes, I'm Chuck Smith from Robeson County. I am from Morehead City myself. [FEEDBACK]

Holloway: Chuck, can you turn your television down please and get right back with us with your question or comment? I think we are getting a little feedback there.

Male: Okay, is that better?

Holloway: Yes, go right ahead.

Male: Okay. Concerning the flag, that is a very hot issue and it is going to be hot until it comes down. South Carolina being a place where they never acknowledged Martin Luther King as being anybody of strong stature or with strong leadership, so it doesn't surprise me that they look at the flag as being a symbol that they stick up and raise high. But the reality of it is that they never acknowledged black people as being a people in a way. They have always been second class people, and there is a deep undertone, if the truth be said, South Carolinians basically wants to hide behind this flag. That flag represents hate, they know it. It represents the Klansmen, they know it. It represents everything that is negative.

Holloway: Okay.

Male: I can't see myself with my children going there and they represent something like that in the future, and then tell them something positive.

Holloway: Okay, Chuck. Chuck thank you so much. We want to get one more comment in and we appreciate those comments, and we'll take our last caller for tonight. John from Pitt County, you go right ahead very briefly.

Male: Yeah, how are you doing tonight?

Holloway: Okay, thanks for calling.

Male: Yeah I just wanted to call and say well, I'm 28 years old and I never went to school in a segregated school system, I guess I'm the generation that Martin Luther King really dreamed about, and I just wanted to say that I am glad that although I was exposed to hate and all those things, you know being a white man from North Carolina, it is just, it gets frustrating seeing all this controversy, and I just wish we could fulfill his dream, and I think our generation is going to end up doing it, and I just want to thank these gentleman for keeping the issue open for us.

Holloway: Did you say that you are a white male and you feel that way? Did I hear you say that?

Male: Yeah, of course. I mean I grew up, actually I went to a small school in Green County and there were five white kids in a classroom of 30, and you know, I grew up in a culture where I was exposed to such things.

Holloway: Okay. Thank you John, so much. And we appreciate ending on that call tonight. That is probably a good way to end on Dr. King's legacy. Very brief comments from both of you gentleman before we conclude. Ronald?

White: We'd like to. On behalf of the NAACP, the struggle is still alive: we still have a lot of, a long ways to go before we get to equality. We're in a new millennium, the year 2000. We're hoping that we can set some high standards and make a fast pace to reach these standards, and keep Martin Luther King, Dr. King's dream alive. But we need to come together as a race of people, and as a collective body of people, blacks and whites, if we can come together to overcome this hate mail and everything else that is out, and media is showing it to us, if we can overcome that, I think we will do well in the new millennium.

Holloway: Reverend Pickett, do you have a last word?

Pickett: Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in his Letter from a Birmingham Jail, and talking to his fellow white clergyman who had written to him about why he had to go to jail and the things that he was doing down there, he let them know that they needed to take a stand too as far as what was right in terms of turning around repression and oppression and doing things that would be beneficial. I am wearing a 'Census 2000' pin. I want everybody to make sure that they send in their questionnaire that we'll mail out to them in March.

Holloway: Well I have a good lead in for that. Thank you all so much. We are out of time for tonight. Once again I would like to thank our guests Reverend H. P. Pickett and Ronald White of the NAACP for coming out on this late night. And as always, I want to thank you for your calls and for tuning in. Next Friday night at 11:00, please join us for an informative talk. Reverend Pickett stole my thunder: we're talking about the Census 2000 and the issues around it. For Black Issues Forum and all of our late night crew here, I am Jay Halloway. You have a blessed evening and a good night. Thank you.

[END OF PROGRAM]