1999 - 2000 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts
Episode #1519
Civil Rights Pioneers
March 3, 2000

Holloway: Good evening and welcome to another edition of Black Issues Forum. I am Jay Holloway, your host. Tonight we are delighted to have, perhaps for the first time at least in a public forum, two local heroes. First I'd like to welcome retired Col. Joe Holt of Raleigh, currently a public school teacher here in Raleigh North Carolina and retired from the Airforce. And also Bill Campbell, current Mayor of Atlanta and Raleigh native as well.

You two people made history in Raleigh public schools at one time. Col. Holt you were the first to attempt to desegregate the public schools in Raleigh, and Bill Campbell the first one successful to do that. I want to talk with both of you and give you an opportunity to share with our audience the experiences you had and how they were similar or dissimilar.

Mr. Campbell let's start with you. Your effort was successful but I would imagine it was trying on your family and on you.

Campbell: It was a difficult time for our nation. One of the things that was important, my father and mother always believed, is that there have to be sacrifices in order for our society to improve, that required individual sacrifices. In 1960 when I attended Murphy Elementary School, there were maybe 10 or 12 other young children that were supposed to be a part of that effort as well, but for individual decisions and for reasons that of course are difficult to challenge today, I ended up being the only one. My older brother and sister Ralph and Mildred, also sought application of course as did Col. Holt earlier. The school board turned down my older brother and sister Ralph and Mildred and approved me to go to the elementary school. It was a difficult time.

Remember in 1960 it is three years before Dr. King gave his speech on the march on Washington, it is before the Civil Rights Act, before the Fair Housing Act; this is very early in the Civil Rights Movement. It was a difficult time for our city and particularly for our family. We had death threats. we had a very, very difficult time. And remember, what's hard to imagine today is that the police departments for southern cities were not friendly to the Civil Rights Movement. They were often times made up of those who were sympathetic to the segregation movement, so we could not in good conscience call on the police department with confidence that they were going to be responsive to our safety needs. So when we would get bomb threats we would often leave and not call the police or sometimes call the police and hope that they would be responsive.

And individually of course it was just a very difficult time. For five years I was the only black child in Murphy Elementary School. But it was for the right cause, I believe it made a real difference for our city and for our state and also for the nation and was glad ultimately to be a part of the most historic movement, social revolution in this country's history. You know most people that are my age or my vintage or even a little older, don't have any real appreciation for what the Civil Rights Movement was all about. But my family, because my dad was the president of the NAACP, we marched every night. Even in addition to my integrating the schools we marched up and down Fayetteville Street, we'd go to the hotels, to the movie theatres, to the swimming pools. So I have a very vivid memory of the Civil Rights Movement and what we were doing, and I was privileged to be a part of it. It was very difficult personally but now of course I am able to look back and say that I was a part of history as was Joe and as were many others.

Holloway: Were you aware of what the Holt family went through prior to that.?

Campbell: Oh certainly. Everyone knew that the Holt family had done a very courageous thing attempting to have Joe integrate the school systems, it was earlier than our efforts and the resistance was greater and the legal impediments were more substantial. But ultimately because of his efforts at chipping down the wall and our efforts at being able to follow through, we were successful in this massive effort.

Imagine how life has changed today where here at UNC or NC State where the sporting teams are integrated and the campuses are integrated, that was simply not the case then. It was a different society, different walks of life entirely. And I think we can see that some of the segregation that we fought then and some of the problems and challenges we faced then, we are still facing some of those challenges. The re-segregation of our public school system, the housing patterns that are still largely segregated, the fact that we don't have what I think are some of the progressive policies that would allow minorities to continue to become a main part of the mainstream of our society. We are still fighting some of the same battles.

Holloway: I want to talk about some of those new challenges right now, but before we move into Col. Holt's part I want to give you an opportunity to have some kind of interchange here. I'd like some comments or questions you may have for Bill Campbell now before we move into your segment. And I want to talk about the new challenges. But I want to give you an opportunity to ask the Mayor some questions or compare some of your stories before we move to that.

Holt: I don't know if I have really any questions of the Mayor. I also want to congratulate him and his family on the courage they displayed and I appreciate the comments he just made about the Holt family. Quite candidly, we've been kind of lost in the history of the Civil Rights Movement in Raleigh. It was very encouraging and heartening to hear Mayor Campbell speaking of the role that we played, because that role has been just overlooked. We in fact, as he mentioned, we initiated the effort to integrate the schools here in Raleigh and that was back in 1956. The similarities I think are very great. We also received hate mail from white supremacist groups, we were constantly harassed, my father was fired from his job, one time my mother's check was garnished. It continued for four years and it was for all intents and purposes . Calls on the phone day and night, that sort of thing, those were the similarities. The difference was that I didn't get in, he did, and that's where the stories diverge.

Holloway: Let's talk now before Mr. Campbell moves on about the transition to where we are today. Henry Lewis Gates, a scholar at Harvard, has called this digital divide "Cyber-Segregation". You talk about some of the busing and housing issues that we have today and Atlanta is probably a great model for what we are looking at in North Carolina. You want to comment on that Bill?

Campbell: Well I think the issue today for the new century will really be the issue of bridging this digital divide: those who have access to technology and those who do not. The fight won't be for Civil Rights it will be for Cyber Rights. It will be making certain poor children and minority children, those that live in rural areas, will have access to this new technology that has changed fundamentally the way we live. It is estimated that in the next 10 years, 75% of all the jobs in America will require computer and technology skills. 15% of America's Colleges and Universities are requiring personal computers for their incoming freshmen. What this means is that there has been such a massive change in society, this compares to the industrial age and some of the other massive changes, where shifts in the way that we have interacted with society have occurred. But this particular shift is one of information and access to information. And those that have it will prosper and those that do not will suffer. It will be an economic death sentence for our children if they do not have a school that's wired, if they do not have access to technology, if they do not have teachers that can teach the technology.

This will be the most important challenge as a people, and when I say "as a people" I mean all people, but certainly for the minority community. Families that make over $75,000 a year, 77% of them have personal computers in their homes. For families that make under $25,000, only 16% have personal computers. What does that mean? That means that a whole large segment of our population is in essence being left on the side of the information super highway, and we simply cannot allow that to exist.

And much like Paul Revere went through and talked about the British were coming, I think there's an obligation for many of those of us who are in leadership positions, and those who are teaching, to talk about this issue of the digital divide and to tell our parents and tell those who are out purchasing goods for their kids: "Don't buy expensive tennis shoes, buy a computer. It will change your child's life much more than expensive sneakers." And I think that we have to get this message out everywhere that we go. We have to be just like Paul Revere and we've got to say "technology is coming in fact technology is here and if you're not hooked up, you're going to suffer for it." It's a very, very important issue. It's really the Civil Rights issue for the new millennium.

Holloway: And that's exactly what I was going to go to. Before we let you go I would like you to conclude on that and draw the analogies. We had the Civil Rights of the 60s and the segregation and we talk about this cyber-segregation right now.

Campbell: It's information segregation. It's the whole issue of how we are able to be certain that all of us have access to information. And think about this they are now talking about being able to vote over the internet. Again, the issues of fundamental fairness and who has access to technology, and who's wired up, and who's schools and homes are wired up. If you look at the patterns of where cabling, high access cabling is going it's going to the same areas that already are prosperous. So this technology segregation, this digital divide is a critical issue of our economic well being and our educational status in the future. And we just have to focus on that. We cannot let this issue continue to percolate without us doing something.

Holloway: Before we let you go Mayor, anything you'd like to say to the people of Raleigh and the people of the state of North Carolina.

Campbell: Oh I love Raleigh. It's my home town, I'll always be very proud of Raleigh. Of course I'm proud of my brother Ralph, who is a state auditor. It says something about a state that would elect the first African-American state wide elected official who is not a judge in North Carolina where I am from. There's an awful lot to be proud of. Still many challenges that we face in Georgia, in Atlanta, in Raleigh and in North Carolina. But I think the future is brighter and we have more reason to be hopeful than we ever have. And large part again it's because of this issue of technology. If we can bridge this digital divide we'll grow and we'll be a much stronger nation in the future.

Holloway: Thank you for joining us.

Campbell: And again, my compliments to the Holt family for their courage. In essence being the fore-runners and being those that helped to break down the barriers that made it easier for me to come along in 1960. It's all a part of being in a movement. Rosa Parks was the one that was always heralded, but there were many other countless people that boycotted the buses. People that said "no, I'm not gonna take this anymore," that refused to go into segregated restrooms, or drink from segregated water fountains.and their stories are really not told as the Holt's family story is not told. So we're joined here today, it's a good way start the new century of acknowledging the contributions of the whole family. And thank you for having me.

Holloway: Thank you.

Holt: Thank you very much for that. Best of luck to you.

Holloway: Let's continue our discussion with Lt. Col. Holt, who is a Raleigh native. We heard the Mayor just say that he wanted to set the record straight, but there's been so many years since that record has been not set straight. What can you add to that Col.?

Holt: Well again I'd like to say that I appreciate the comments he made. That's the first time I think that there has been any public statement in a forum like this, that acknowledged the history of Civil Rights in Raleigh and that the Holts led that effort. I really appreciate those remarks. This is about setting the record straight. It does need to be set straight because there's a great deal of misinformation and there's been a great deal of miscommunication about how Civil Rights got started, post 1954 Civil Rights in Raleigh in terms of who led it and that kind of thing. I personally would like to see something come out from the media, because the media has had this information and material available to them. We were the only family covered by the media for at least three years, and I mean tall big headlines and a lot of coverage. I can't understand now why it's just dropped out of the system. So I would like to see the media, and I'm glad this program is doing something along the lines of setting the record straight, because I think the media needs to come out and say "this has been an oversight, this has not been communicated." I would like to see something like that done for the record - something major. And it's not about self aggrandizement. It's about entitlement to the legacy that my family established and it's about setting the record straight and somebody needs to do that other than just me. I am a single individual.

Holloway: Now that was 1956 when your family attempted to integrate the Raleigh public schools and we aired a program on "Exhausted Remedies" that your daughter, Deborah Holt, produced that actually aired on UNC-TV. But share with us a little bit now Bill Campbell talked about the legacy of Rosa Parks and others, but there were people before that. So you were one of the first, was your story very similar, you touched on it earlier but share with our audience the segregation that you went through then and then I want to talk about the kind of segregation that we may still have today.

Holt: Again I think the similarities that manifest themselves are shown in the kind of harassment that each family experienced. Anytime you are the first or anytime you are in a situation where as a black person you are cracking a barrier or you're trying to enter into an area where you are accessing rights that have been normally withheld for whites only, you are going to be harassed. Well as I indicated earlier, our harassment that we received began in 1956 right after we applied to go to Daniel's Junior High School there in the Oberlin community. And then it really got hot in 1957 and '58. In 1957 we applied to go to Broughton and that was the most anxious summer, that summer in 1958, in my life and in the lives of my parents. Letters from White Supremacist Groups, threats to dynamite the home. At one time my family got me out of town, I did not even know the reason why. My mother was afraid to even tell me until I became a senior in college. The harassment continued right on up really into college.

Now, I think the difference is that we challenged the system, the Holt family did. We started out saying "hey, we're entitled to this right, law says we're entitled to first class citizenship, we're gonna buy into that, we are going to claim that." And so we fought that. My father said "if necessary I will sue for our right," and we did sue the Raleigh City School Board and that was just a very agonizing tough battle that we went through for almost three years. The difference is that there was no real fight that the Campbell family engaged in and the record supports that. This is not to discredit the Campbell family, this is to just set the straight. I think there is a notion or an idea that the Holt's maybe raised a fight, but they raised a better fight and that's why Bill got in. But there was no fight that they waged, they just simply applied and they applied fairly late in the game as a matter fact when I say that I mean even after the deadline had expired and this is supported by the press at the time and the minutes of the Raleigh School Board.

Holloway: Let's talk about why you think you weren't admitted at that time. Now you were trying to get into Junior High and then to High School and Bill was finally admitted four years later into Elementary School.

Holt: Yes.

Holloway: Why not, why weren't you admitted?

Holt: I was black. I wasn't white. That's why I wasn't admitted. Now the reason as to why Bill was admitted I can't say except that I think that our case, that the suit that we brought against the Raleigh School Board was certainly a factor. We also have to look at, and I think that embarrassed them even though the decision was in the favor of the Raleigh School Board. I think the other thing we have to look at is that four years had transpired and the number of things that happed in the United States and people had come more on board and the school board was I think looking at these things. There were three or four other cities in North Carolina that had already begun school integration I believe Charlotte, Winston-Salem, Durham and Greensboro. Raleigh, the capital city, a major city still lagging. So I think, and I'm not in the minds of the school board members, but they came to some sort of consensus some sort of agreement that "Hey it is time for us to do something and we want to be able to control this, we are not going to respond to the demands of people saying that 'I demand that you allow me to go to this school.'" I'm not sure what was in their minds as to why Bill, Mayor Campbell, was allowed in with just an application. But there was a comment made in "Exhausted Remedies - Joe Holt's Story" which is a documentary about school integration in Raleigh.

Holloway: That's the one we aired.

Holt: Yes, back on October 16^th I believe. The sole surviving member of the school board that was in place at the time I applied, Mr. J.W. York, indicated that "it was the feeling of the board", I believe he said that "they would begin integration, whenever they began it, at the primary school level." That probably was a factor too, but why they did it at that particular time, I don't know.

Holloway: Well let's move on to now to current day. You went on become a Lt. Col. in the Airforce, have retired and I don't know if it's ironic or not, but you are now teaching in the same school system that denied you admission over 40 years ago.

Holt: Yes. Right.

Holloway: When you look at that in retrospect and you look now, many people say that students are still segregating themselves in cafeterias, hanging out, that kind of thing. And we talked.in busing and housing and all that and we still are talking about it, we talked about it earlier with Mayor Campbell, even the digital divide. You want to talk about that now as you've seen this thing completely turn around, or has it turned around?

Holt: Well I think that we haven't done as good a job as we could've done in conveying the history and the background of segregation so that our younger people will understand what that really was about and what that meant. I think particularly in the case of African-American students they are hearing that you all had black teachers and you were well taught. And we are saying that, the older generation, because that's true. But I think even some of us are forgetting that segregation was more than just happening to have black schools and having good teachers. It was a wider system than that. So people need to be careful about saying that it was really better then, because segregation was wider and bigger than just being in a segregated school with black teachers. It was a very restrictive system. And when you're in a situation where you don't have access to what everyone else is getting, you are hurting yourself.

Holloway: Let me ask you this. I asked Dan Ruffin, our Chairman of the Board of Governors this question. Jesse Helms was on our air and said that back at that time, segregation, that it was no big deal to whites not even the blacks.

Holt: Consider the source. It was a big deal to blacks, certainly it was. Segregation was a way of enforcing blacks and keeping them in a second class citizen status. You did not have access to the same kinds of opportunities that whites had, you did not have access to the quality facilities, to the quality education. I would think that whatever blacks you might have interviewed back in those times, who said, "Well, I don't want to be here and I don't want to be there," it's because they felt that "I don't want whites who control my very being to know that I want to think of myself as being equal to them socially." So they said what they thought maybe whites might want to hear. But deep down nobody wants to be segregated or discriminated against.

Holloway: Let's, in our last couple of minutes of closing, let's talk about this access issue. You talk about access and we talked about this cyber-segregation. Do you think that we are segregating ourselves when we chose not to take advantage of this information technology and what are you seeing with kids in school today.

Holt: Are they choosing not to take advantage of it or is it a matter of not being able to take advantage of it?

Holloway: Okay.

Holt: Yes we would be placing ourselves, or jeopardizing ourselves very much so if we of our own volition excluded ourselves from access to information. I think Mayor Campbell alluded to this, it's a matter of ability to access, however also it's a mentality. He brought up the matter of tennis shoes as opposed to computes. You have to think in terms of investing in something that's gonna pay off and be meaningful in your life for a long period of time. So we need to take advantage of the opportunites we have now, particularly African-American children. There was a time where they could not be in a setting when they had access to the same information and I would like for some of their parents to understand that too, because their parents came up in that system.

Holloway: We just have less than one minute. What would you say finally, to the people of Raleigh and of North Carolina in about 30 seconds as we conclude?

Holt: I'd say let's not forget your history. Let's see where you have been. Look at the good things you did and let that be a lesson for pointing in the right direction for the future. Let your history teach you about what the bad things were or let it teach you what those things were that held you back so you won't make those mistakes again. But you need to know your history so you won't make those mistakes again.

Holloway: Lt. Col. Joe Holt thank you so much for taking the time with us.

Holt: Alright.

Holloway: I want to thank you for joining us and also thank Mayor Bill Campbell. And thank you for watching and hopefully you've learned a little bit about our history and I think Malcolm X said it, "if you don't know your history you are bound to repeat it."

So we thank you for watching and we want you to continue joining Black Issues Forum. Next week we'll have Supreme Court Justice, Henry Frye, Friday night 11:00 on Black Issues Forum. If you want more information about these issues and others join us at the numbers on your screen or contact our website.

I'm Jay Holloway for Black Issues Forum, you have a blessed evening. Good night.

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