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Episode #1520
March 10, 2000
| Holloway: |
Jay
Holloway, Host |
| Frye: |
Chief
Justice Henry Frye, North Carolina Supreme Court |
Holloway: Less
than 50 years ago he was denied the right to vote in our state,
today he sits on the highest seat of our state supreme court.
Meet the African American Chief Justice of the North Carolina
Supreme Court - Henry Frye is next on Black Issues Forum.
Holloway: Good
evening and welcome to another addition of Black Issues Forum,
I am Jay Holloway, your host. Tonight we are delighted to
welcome to the studio, Chief Justice of the North Carolina
Supreme Court, Judge Henry Frye. He is the first African American
Chief Justice of the North Carolina Supreme court. In 1968,
he was the first African American elected to the General Assembly
since Reconstruction. He is the 25th Chief Justice,
and he's one that we think identifies with people who have
not had the resources or money to fight the system and we're
glad that you are the new Chief Justice, Judge Frye. Thank
you for being with us today.
Frye: Thank
you Jay, it's good to be here. I hope you don't me mind me
calling you Jay since you're about the age of my youngest
son as I recall.
Holloway: Just
the same age, that's right, yes sir. We're delighted to have
you here and we want to give the people of North Carolina
an opportunity to understand and meet the personality and
some of the experiences that you've had and now that you sit
at the top of our highest court. You grew up in Richmond county
here in North Carolina, so this is your home state. What was
it like growing up in this county back during the early years
in North Carolina?
Frye: Yes,
please don't call them ancient times, I'm not really that
old.
Holloway: I
didn't say that sir [LAUGHS].
Frye: I
grew up in Richmond County, and Richmond County is a rural
area - it still is. Rockingham is our biggest town. I say
I grew up in Ellerbe, but now I tell people that's not quite
accurate because I grew up in the suburbs of Ellerbe. About
a mile or so from the center of the town. Typical small town,
country area. I grew up on a farm about four to six acres
as I recall, and we farmed. Tobacco, cotton, corn, watermelons
grew, all sorts of things and we had everything in animals,
from chickens to pigs and we even had a few guinea's and ducks.
We had a little pond on our farm and so we had things down
there. And believe it or not we even had frogs. I had a lot
of good experiences growing up on the farm, some not too good
- a lot of hard work and things of that nature. But typical
small, country town.
Holloway: Did
that bring about aspirations to become an attorney or an elected
official or did you ever think about what you're doing today,
did you ever think about that then?
Frye: I
guess I thought about it. I actually had no intentions of
being an attorney, that was not what I was looking forward
to do. I think the first thing. an incident. let me just back
up if I may. Out there working real hard on the farm I invented
in my mind, something that would prime tobacco rather than
having to prime it the hard way and they now have something
that primes tobacco, so I didn't get a chance to invent that.
They have a lot of other modern conveniences on the farm that
I dreamed about, but somebody beat me to getting them perfected
so I didn't get a chance to pursue that. I did start out as
an agriculture major at North Carolina ANT, it was then ANT
College, North Carolina ANT State University, so I was interested
in agriculture. And at one point I thought about being a veterinarian
and lots of other things, but that was one of the specific
things that I thought about.
Holloway: And
right around that time, going to ANT, you were also eligible
to vote but you commented to me in our open, I said "Less
than 50 years ago you were denied the right," you said
that was about the right time. What went through your mind
when you were denied the right to vote?
Frye: Yes,
let me say that actually this was after ANT and after I had
served, I got a commission in the United States Airforce,
and this was after I had served in the Airforce and came back
home to register in my home town.
Holloway: Oh,
okay.
Frye: At
that time we had to be able to read and write a section of
the constitution to the satisfaction of the registrar, known
as the Literacy Test. And some registrars were hard to satisfy
and the questions that were asked were questions that I was
unable to answer.
Holloway: For
example?
Frye; Well
something like name the 14th President or the 12th
President of the United States or something, name so many
signers of the Declaration of Independence and things of that
nature.
Holloway: And
that would be asked to blacks and not to whites?
Frye: Well,
that's my understanding and they had a book with those questions
in there. And so I guess if the registrar wanted to, he could
ask it of anybody he wanted to ask and if you didn't satisfy
the registrar with the answers, you didn't register to vote.
I thought, frankly, that the registrar was questioning whether
I was a resident of Ellerbe, Richmond County. And so after
he said I had failed the test, I left and come back and said
"Let me be sure that you're not questioning my residency."
He said "Oh I know you, you're the one who's been admitted
to UNC Law School." And he knew the family and everything
else, but I think he had decided that I was not gonna register.
Holloway: Was
that another barrier that you broke in terms of African Americans
going to UNC Law School.
Frye: No,
at the time I went to UNC Law School, several blacks had graduated
from the law school: J. Kenneth Lee of Greensboro who started
the American Federal Savings and Loan institution there; Harvard
Beech, a great lawyer down in the eastern part of North Carolina;
George Green who became a Superior Court Judge in Wake County;
and Major Hye who practiced law in Greensboro. And a few others,
I don't remember all the names but several had graduated ahead
of me. But at the time I think I was the first African American
to be admitted as a first year law student and complete the
three year course, so I think I was unique in that sense.
And I was the only black in my class.
Holloway: Of
course.
Frye: Interestingly
enough though, to show you how times change there were only
two women in my class.
Holloway: Boy,
isn't that something.
Frye: And
when I say women, I mean black, white, Native American or
otherwise. So things have really changed a lot in North Carolina
at the University and other places since then.
Holloway: Since
you mentioned that, let's jump right now to, these set of
experiences make you very unique to be a Justice, let alone
a Chief Justice on our Supreme Court. These experiences, how
do they effect, do you think, our judicial body and then you
sitting at the head of that? How does that.?
Frye: I
think that's a legitimate question. I think I'm a seasoned
judge, I think I'm a seasoned person in the sense that I have
experienced so many good things and so many bad things about
North Carolina and our system. And my experiences through
the years have been such that I know what can happen when
people don't have the highest motives in terms of what they
do, and I know what happens when people are not properly trained,
I know when people don't uphold the law. But I also see how
changes can occur for the good when people decide to do the
right thing, when people are well trained, when things are
monitored, and when people are committed to seeing to it that
the society is open to everybody. And so it has helped prepare
me for that and I feel great that I have the opportunity now
to say to people that, "Yes you can rise from whatever
your humble beginnings might be and then move to the top in
North Carolina." We are working toward North Carolina
coming to the point that we'll live up to our motto "To
be, rather than to seem." We haven't gotten there yet,
but we're working on it and I see those signs in a lot of
places.
I
had the privilege of administering the oath to Col. Richard
Holder as head of the North Carolina Highway Patrol,
and I can remember when we didn't have any blacks in the highway
patrol. Not one. And I remember when I was in the legislature
how we asked questions as to why those that were there were
not being promoted. And now, the top person at the state highway
patrol is an African American. That's a real story. And guess
what? The head of the highway patrol in Mississippi is now
an African American, and in New Jersey the governor has nominated
an African American (it has to be approved by the legislature),
as head of the highway patrol. So I say to people, you know
there are opportunities out there and don't be discouraged.
Register, vote, participate in government, but for the students
I say "prepare yourself and be ready. Because if you're
not ready when the opportunity comes, you can't take advantage
of those positions." They couldn't put a person as head
of the highway patrol, who hadn't gone through the ranks,
and who had some education and who knew how to get along with
people, and things of that nature. And I've probably talked
to long and I'll stop and let you.
Holloway: No,
no, no, no. That's why you're here, that's why I'm just asking
the questions. But I want pick up on the point of this law
enforcement. Frank Balance introduced a Driving While Black
legislation that has come up across the country now. You've
been a law maker you know sit as a judge, but that law, I
understand, is only state-wide and effects the highway patrol
for example but not the local law enforcement officers. Now
you come from a background that you've eloquently described
some of. You probably don't want to give your opinion about
that, but are there laws like that, that you care to comment
about that you would either change or you think it's time
for a.
Frye: Well
let me just talk about what I understand is going on. There's
what has been described as "driving while black"
being a crime and there's a perception out there that this
has occurred consistently in several places, probably about
as much in some of the northern states, incidentally, as in
the southern states. And that's why I'm real happy to see
what's going on now in New Jersey. It's interesting that that
Bill was introduced. I don't know if you know it, I don't
know if it's well known, but a lot of time when a Bill is
introduced to keep records or do things like that, the top
officials of the department fight it. But as I understand
the top officials over the highway patrol came in and said
if that's what you want to do, we'll work with you and try
to be sure that it's set up so we can actually do what you
want to do - which is to find out if it's going on and to
be able to correct it. And I think that's a good thing for
North Carolina, starting with the Secretary right on down
to Assistant Secretary. And sometimes it helps to have the
right people at the top, starting with the appointing authorities,
staring with the people who are the Secretaries of these administrations,
and secondly the Assistant Directors. And I point that out
because if you look at North Carolina, in most of our departments
now where they don't, the Secretaries and so forth are white.
But we've got Assistant Secretaries and they are black folk
in several of these places who see these problems and sometimes
they can have an influence, you see, on the position that's
taken in reference to these things.
Holloway: Well
that's a good thing to talk about because for so long we haven't
had that, and to say to all of our viewers - black or white
- why this is good for North Carolina to have diversity in
leadership and that it can make a difference.
Frye: Absolutely.
We are a very diverse state and we are changing. And while
at one time it was primarily just black and white and in Robeson
County, black, white and Native American. Incidentally, we
go to Robeson County now and we've got Native Americans who
are in top positions even in the judicial system down there.
The most senior judge on the District Court, following the
person who is Chief, is a Native American. And now we are
getting Spanish Americans and others who ware coming into
this state. And so if we can all work together to get the
job done, and sometimes we need a little help, where as primarily
at one time it was blacks who needed help (we still need the
help). But in the judicial system, for example, now we've
got a program to help people who have difficulty with English,
in other words those who, for example, the Spanish Americans,
we get interpreters to help interpret what they say.
Holloway: In
the judicial process.
Frye: Yes.
And we're trying to do that all over the state. And get certified
people who will not just testify and say "Well this is
what he probably meant," you know you say "This
is what he said." Now then you can ask him what he meant,
you see and that type of thing.
So
the point I wanted to make is that we've got black and white,
we've got Native American, now we've got Spanish American
and if we can all just work together to make this state what
it ought to be. And the challenge is out there. We've got
the legislative branch that makes the laws, appropriates the
money and so forth. Then you've got the executive branch with
the governor and others who see that those laws are executed
and follow through with that. And then you've got the disputes
and the problems and they bring them to the judiciary. And
what we want from top to bottom in this judiciary is people
who are willing to work. In the case of the judges people
who are neutral, who haven't already staked themselves out
on one side of all the issues, but who are open and fair and
can listen to both sides, and then render a verdict is accordance
with what's before them.
Holloway: You
set up a good question I want to ask you about. We think about
these disputes and these problems and these issues, at many
of district levels we see an inordinate balance of African
American males in court.
Frye: Yes.
Holloway: And
I wondered do you see the same thing at the Supreme Court
level and can you talk about, without putting your position
out there, is it the same and how does that effect you?
Frye: Yes.
There is no question, the statistics show that an extremely
high proportion of persons who come before our courts are
African American males - that's a fact. Now, we could go into
the questions, why? There's probably in some places racial
discrimination, but there are other places where it's just
the poverty situation, it's the lack of a lot of other things.
And so I go around I talk to churches, I talk to schools,
I talk to students in the schools, I talk to the principals
sometimes in the schools. We've got to have a multi-faceted
approach to dealing with the problem. Now, as far as the courts
are concerned, we do have some special programs and we're
going to continue those. And the legislature's been pretty
good recently, they've allowed us to establish some family
courts and then this year they gave us the money to start
three new family courts where we could zero in on the family
and try to bring the necessary forces to working together
to try to help families. As I said, we need a multi-faceted
approach to that problem as well as the others that face us.
Holloway: Speaking
of the black male, for those that are watching this program
in March and we will repeat it later, there will be a statewide
Black Male Summit on Father's Day of this year in Greensboro
where a lot of these issues will be discussed. And I know
it's a major concern for our citizens. What kind of legacy
do you want to leave, or have you thought about leaving with
all of the barriers that you have broken and things that you
are offering and benefiting our state.
Frye: Well
what I want people to be able to say is that "He made
a difference." And a positive difference, not just a
difference, but a positive difference in the state of North
Carolina. In terms of yes, people who have problems, who are
in trouble and that type of thing, but also people who are
the leaders in every branch of government in North Carolina.
In the governmental area, I have to back up because some people
say "Well the government can't solve all the problems,"
that's correct the government can't. So you've got to have
what? You've got to have the businesses working together with
you, and you've go to have families and community organizations,
and even social organizations like fraternities and sororities,
some of whom are doing little things to make a difference
to help with kids and help put them in the right direction,
help try to set the right examples for them, and help try
to teach them and train them in the way they should go. So
mine is that, yes there are people who want to try to drag
you down, but don't worry about that. Let's all try to find
ways to work together.
And
what I've found, and let me make this point, sometimes I've
been in a group and I hear things going in a negative direction
and I say to myself, "Doesn't somebody see that that's
not the way to do it, that there's a better way?" And
then sometimes I'll speak up, and I'll find that there are
two or three people just been waiting on somebody to change
the tone, and so they join in with us and we come out of there
with something positive that we should do, that we can do
and should do. And so that's what I encourage people to do.
Don't just look at the negatives, look at the positives and
we can make a change, we can do things better.
Let
me mention one other thing that I might, in reference to my
election to the House of Representatives. It was the first
time we had an African American elected.
Holloway: 1968.
Frye: Yes,
in 1968, in the 20th Century. I think it's probably
more accurate to say the 20th Century than since
Reconstruction because we did have, and I mention this from
a historical standpoint, that during the Reconstruction Period
immediately after the Civil War, there were lots of blacks
in the legislature. And then we went through a period when
there were practically none. And then in the 1880's and 1890's,
we had a group of blacks again during what we call the Fusion
Period. And then in 1900 we dropped back to zero again and
then for that 68 year period, there were no African Americans
in the North Carolina General Assembly. So I thought I would
just throw that little bit of history in there, for whatever
that might be.
Holloway: Well
speaking of that term that you were a "law maker",
let me ask you a question. Is there a law that if you could
just change, you would do it?
Frye: There
are lots of them that I would change and I tried to change
when I was in the legislature. But now that I'm on the court
I tend not to express opinions on what laws the legislature
ought to change. Now I have to say this, now I do express
opinions privately to my legislator or then to some of the
of the leadership of legislature. But I think publicly, with
rare exceptions, it's probably better for judges not to do
that.
Holloway: Well
in my own way, I'm trying to, but I respect that.
Frye: So
I'll refrain from doing that today if I might.
Holloway: What
would you say to young aspiring lawyers, African American
or otherwise?
Frye: People
ask me, "Do we need any more lawyers?" And my answer
is, "We don't need any more sorry lawyers, but we need
a lot more good lawyers." So what I say to lawyers is,
"Let's be good lawyers. Let's be professional lawyers.
Let's not do just what the bottom line says we have to do,
but let's be above what we have to do." And so if I might
just mention that last year, Chief Justice Burney Mitchell
created the Chief Justice's Commission on Professionalism.
And he put lawyers and non lawyers on that committee with
the idea of raising the standards of our profession and I
have continued that commission. And we are meeting this year
and we are trying to find ways to say that, "Let's be
above the fray." In other words, not just trying to say
we want a better image. Yes we want a better image, but we
want to be better lawyers, we want to do a better job of dealing
with our clients, we want to return their phone calls. That's
one of the biggest complaints I get in reference to lawyers,
that we don't return our phone calls. And so we are working
to say, "Let's be the best that we can be," and
lawyers are very important in this society. If you don't believe
it, you ask anybody who gets in trouble.
Holloway: Right.
Less than a minute here. What would you say to our African
American community across this state that you are very concerned
about, that you would like to see them also be concerned about?
Frye: Let
me take a very small thing, and I know I have to make it fast,
but if you call for Jury Duty it's one of the best duties
that you can have because it's the bull-walk of a democracy.
It's the thing that makes a democracy work, to know that if
you get charged with something you have the right to have
12 of your fellow citizens decide things rather than some
governmental person.
Holloway: You've
heard it from our Chief Justice of the North Carolina Supreme
Court, Chief Justice Henry Frye. Judge Frye, thank you so
much for being with us and sharing your opinions and views
and sharing your personality.
I'm
Jay Holloway, I want to thank you so much for joining us.
If you would like to know more about Judge Frye and more about
some of the issues we talked about, visit us on our website
and call us, the information will be on your screen. But until
next week, we certainly want to thank you for watching. Watch
Black Issues Forum every Friday night at 11:00. Next Friday
night we talk about the CIAA with the Commissioner and also
George Pup Williams. That will be next Friday night at 11:00
on UNC-TV. I'm Jay Holloway, you have a blessed evening and
a good night.
[END
OF INTERVIEW]
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