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Episode #1522
Chancellors of Fayetteville State and ECU
Holloway: Jay Holloway,
host
McLeod: Chancellor Willis B. McLeod, Fayetteville State
University
Aiken: Chancellor Dr. Richard Aiken, East Carolina
University
Williams: Sonia Williams
Chambers: Chancellor Julius Chambers, North Carolina Central
University
Michaux: NC Representative Mickey Michaux (D)
Holloway:
If you're a supporter of Fayetteville State University or
East Carolina University you'll want to stay tuned next to
Black Issues Forum. The chancellors of both of those
institutions are on Black Issues Forum next.
Voiceover: This program
is made possible in part by contributions from UNC-TV viewers
like you.
[THEME MUSIC]
Holloway: Good evening
and welcome to another addition of Black Issues Forum.
I'm Jay Holloway, your host. Tonight we begin the first in
a series of programs featuring funding issues of our public
higher education institutions, those within the UNC system.
Tonight I'm happy to welcome first Dr. Willis B. McLeod, chancellor
of Fayetteville State University. Chancellor McLeod, thank
you for being with us.
McLeod: Thank you.
Holloway: And also,
Chancellor Dr. Richard Aiken, chancellor of East Carolina
University. Thank you, Dr. Aiken, for being with us as well.
Aiken: My pleasure.
Thank you.
Holloway: Tonight as
we discuss the funding issues of these institutions within
the UNC system we want to begin with a package done by Sonia
Williams of North Carolina Now. Last year lawmakers began
to look at one of the issues that historically black colleges
perhaps were underfunded, historically. Well, tonight we're
going to take a look at that in retrospect with Sonia Williams
and we'll be back with the chancellors after this.
Williams: North Carolina
Central University is undergoing many costly changes, from
the current construction projects throughout campus to the
kinds of students they recruit. Chancellor Julius Chambers
says the university is raising its admission standards in
order to compete with the larger universities.
Chambers: One of the
goals was to up the SAT from about 742 to first 900 and then
950, and we have been able to increase the SAT average over
200 points over the past three years. Another thing we've
looked at is developing a program to interest students in
moving into graduate and professional school.
Williams: But these
higher standards have come with a price. Central's enrollment
dropped by about 400 students. As a result, the university
lost over $3 million in state funding and 29 faculty positions.
State funding for public universities is determined by a formula
using the number of students enrolled full-time. It's called
the full-time equivalent enrollment formula, and leaders at
historically black universities say it is unfair.
Chambers: Our budgets
are based on FTE and it's an abstract proposition. With everything
being equal that might work, but things aren't equal and to
start us at a starting line assuming that we haven't had the
problems we've had over the years in terms of funding. And
to say that we're going to use a neutral allocation really
puts us at a disadvantage and we are suffering that now.
Williams: But the results
of a private study that examined the equity of funding for
the state's 16 public universities concluded that five historically
white universities were underfunded and that the historically
black schools were overfunded. Now law makers are allocating
an extra $21 million to these white universities. Critics,
though, say the study did not take into account the decades
of discrimination and underfunding black colleges endured.
Chambers: We have supported-that
is, the HBCUs-the $21 million appropriation to the five institutions
because we know they had a shortfall and they need the money.
What we would like to see is a similar kind of appropriation
for the HBCUs, not necessarily based on a difference in operating
budgets over the past two or three years, but the difference
in operating budgets over the past 30 and 40 years, which
is in my opinion substantially more than $21 million.
Williams: Representative
Mickey Michaux and other black lawmakers pushed for additional
funding for black colleges and universities this session.
Michaux: We tried to
get the same type of funding for those institutions that they
are offering the other five institutions. We seem to have
hit a note of sympathy or empathy, if you will, and we were
told that if we could find to take the money from somewhere
else that there's the possibility of getting it done, but
when you start robbing Peter to pay Paul then people begin
to get up in arms about it.
Russell: Well, actually
in the capital budget the black colleges and universities
fared much better than did the other ones. I think the Board
of Governors recognized that they were priority needs and
they addressed a lot of those. On the House side of the budget
we chose to adopt those recommendations as were given to us
by the Board of Governors. Of course, there's been an ongoing
debate between some of the schools, both black and white,
that have been traditionally maybe underfunded to some degree.
And there was an attempt made within the last two or three
years to help to correct that by allowing them to keep some
of their reversions, so I think there is an attempt to do
that.
Williams: Allowing
certain schools to keep their reversions, or unspent money
from one budget period to the next, has been the state's effort
to help underfunded universities. Russell says lawmakers relied
on the Board of Governor's priority list regarding funding
for our public universities since the Board is ultimately
responsible for making sure the schools are run well.
Russell: As to those
problems with the funding 20, 30, 40 years ago, that is something
that I understand that a commission looked at about four or
five years ago to see what we needed to do to change that.
And while there may be some things, right now I think the
funding is on par. But it's certainly an issue that we'll
continue to look at to make sure that all of our universities
are in the best shape they can be.
Williams: But Michaux
says that unless extraordinary efforts are made, black colleges
and universities may never catch up with historically white
schools. He adds, those extra efforts should begin with alumni
of these universities, community leaders and the state.
Michaux: It may be
too late to do something in this long session about it, but
I think we have ample opportunity over the interim to come
back in the short session and provide a specific means for
providing these HBCUs with enough funds to begin to move towards
catching up.
Williams: Meanwhile,
North Carolina Central and other historically black schools
are fighting to become more competitive institutions. And
while they say they cannot dwell on the past, university leaders
also want all lawmakers to realize the history of inequality
cannot be ignored.
Chambers: We have endured
over the years and I'm sure we will continue to do so, but
it's a challenge during the period that we are dealing with
this kind of budget allocation, but none of us can ever forget
that we didn't have the same appropriation that many of the
other schools have had.
Holloway: That was
last years session and we're back now in the year 2000. Chancellor
McLeod, are those issues still prevalent today in 2000 amongst
the historically black colleges and universities, particularly
at Fayetteville State?
McLeod: Yes they are,
Jay, and I think what's important to point out here is the
fact that we are a 16-campus system. I think Chancellor Chambers
made an excellent point about our being competitive. Not competitive
within the system necessarily, but competitive outside the
University system, competitive with private institutions in
North Carolina and outside of the state. And looking at the
fact that in order to do that we've got to provide level funding,
equal funding for all of our campuses. There is a basic infrastructure
with respect not only to technology, but with respect to our
classroom needs, science, fine arts, other lab facilities,
faculty salaries, all of which must be looked at if we're
going to be competitive with peer institutions outside the
University system. I think that the work that has been done
thus far by President Broad and people that she has brought
in to assist us has really put us on the right track to move
in the right direction downrange to level out and bring equity
to the system.
Holloway: Chancellor
Aiken from East Carolina, Chancellor McLeod just mentioned
not necessarily competitive within the system, but external.
And I think a lot of people in our state get that confused,
that when we say equal funding and equitable funding that
Central should be funded at the same level as Carolina or
ECU. But there is a peer institution process. Can you and
Chancellor McLeod explain that please?
Aiken: I'll give it
a whirl, Jay. North Carolina public universities are funded
according to their status with the Carnegie commission. There
are a number of different classifications, Carnegie classifications:
research, doctoral, comprehensive, liberal arts. And these
classifications are really indicators of the number of degrees
you produce at the doctoral level or at the masters level.
And the state, over the many years, has decided that that
would be a reasonable way to fund higher education in North
Carolina. I think Chancellor McLeod is right on target when
he talks about the fact that we need to be on a competitive
level with the universities outside the state of North Carolina.
This state has, for all of its history, taken great pride
in its University system. It's one of the best in the country.
Everyone will tell you it's one of the two or three best in
the country.
M: Absolutely.
Aiken: But we are in
some danger, I think, of losing that competitive edge, and
so we need to step up to the mark as citizens of the state
of North Carolina and make sure that our universities are
competitive with other public higher education systems and
with private schools as well.
Holloway: Now, from
a diversity point of view, your institutions are diverse and
although you are not direct competitors-let's clarify that.
Are you all in the same peer group first, I guess?
Aiken: Well, East Carolina
University is a doctoral university. Dr. McLeod's university
is comprehensive, so that puts us in a slightly different
category. We just became doctoral, in fact, within the last
two years. So our funding level this year will increase as
a result of that.
Holloway: Chancellor
McLeod, are your constituents confused about that issue? Do
they think that your institutions should be funded at the
level of ECU and they may not understand this peer classification?
McLeod: Probably so.
We're comprehensive, one, because we do offer doctoral level
programs in educational administration. We're the only HBCU
that does offer such a program. As a consequence we do get
a little higher level of funding, but we don't get as high
a level of funding as East Carolina does, and should not because
of their particular level of funding, because they are in
a different peer group. And each of us in our various peer
groups have been compared to other universities across the
country in our peer group-for instance, we're compared with
Jackson State, Florida A&M, Fairleigh Dickinson, schools
such as that.
Holloway: Now let me
ask you, so when Chancellor Chamber says "catch up"
does he mean catch up to those institutions or catch up to
these other institutions within our system?
McLeod: I think he
means catching up in both respects. First of all, in North
Carolina, with respect to historical funding in North Carolina,
with respect to construction. For instance, back in '73 when
we had the bond referendum the historically black schools
had to use bond money primarily for repair and renovation,
whereas the historically white institutions were able to use
more of their money-they used some for R&R-but were able
to use more of their money for new building capital construction.
And it was because of the historical lack of funding of HBCUs
that had put them in such a tremendous state of disrepair.
So when you look at it from that perspective historically
there's been a great deal of inequity. But since 1972 when
we became a system, and under the leadership of President
Friday and Spengler and now President Broad, I think we've
made tremendous progress. And based on studies that the General
Assembly have commissioned and the work that President Broad
has taken the initiative to do to see that equity is indeed
brought in place, we're going to see a lot of progress in
the future.
Holloway: Chancellor
Aiken, speaking of that equity situation, your institution
as part of the system I think received part of the $21 million
allocation as a result of a study about five years ago that
actually said that when they studied the HBCUs were overfunded
and the white institutions were underfunded. Do you care to
talk about that and clarify that?
Aiken: Yes, what happened,
Jay, was that there was a realization that several of the
universities, five of us in particular, had grown at a rather
remarkable rate over the years. And in some of those years
of considerable growth the funding was not at the full level.
In fact, some years it was at half level. Consequently we
found ourselves in the position of being considerably larger
but not having the same amount of money per student to fund
our universities. So that study was completed and it did indeed
reveal that those five universities were some $21 million
totally short.
Holloway: Now, there
are five historically black colleges in North Carolina: Fayetteville
State University, Elizabeth City State, North Carolina Central,
A&T and Winston Salem State.
Aiken: Right.
McLeod: Right.
Holloway: Let's talk
a little bit now about your particular institutions' needs.
When we talk about funding they usually fall into about three
major categories: construction, faculty salaries and student
tuition. So if we could talk about those three issues in the
remainder of the program. Let me give you gentlemen an opportunity
to talk about your capital needs in construction at your institutions
and why it's important for the general public to understand
that they support the entire university's funding effort.
McLeod: Perfect segue,
Jay. Chancellor Aiken mentioned the historical situation with
respect to the historically white institutions and what had
happened with enrollment growth. The historically black institutions
now have targetted enrollment growth over the next 10 years.
We are targeted to grow to 6,000, Elizabeth City to 3,000.
Holloway: You're coming
from where? Where are you now?
McLeod: We're at 4,400
now on our main campus and over 800 at Fort Bragg, so I think
we're going to hit that mark before 2008, which means we that
definitely need to run extremely fast to catch up with respect
to capital needs; capital needs not only for residential space,
but for classroom space, technology and all of the other services
related to teaching and learning for students. So we're in
a real catch-22. The historically white institutions are still
growing. We're looking at 50,000 new students coming into
the system over the next 10 years and everybody is growing.
So everybody has got the same needs right now, and that's
why it is so significant that we pass this bond referendum
or take some action within the next year to respond to this
tremendous problem that we face.
Holloway: Any similar
problems, Chancellor Aiken?
Aiken: Yes. Dr. McLeod
and I share one problem that we would both like to solve very
quickly, and that is the need for better science facilities
on our campuses. The firm of Eva Klein and Associates came
in at the request of the General Assembly and did a very considerable
study of the needs for capital facilities on the campuses,
and what they found was nearly $7 billion worth of needs.
This is not only new construction, but this is renovation
of existing facilities.
Holloway: That's system
wide.
Aiken: System wide,
yes. If you look at that total, about $750 million of that
is what we would describe as extremely urgent needs. On our
campus it would be to provide $54 million for a new science
and technology building. Our chemistry classes at East Carolina-and
this is not unusual, you would find this across the state-are
being taught in a building that was built by the WPA. This
is a facility that was not a terribly good science facility
that was built.
Holloway: WPA, clarify
that.
Aiken: Well this was
back in the depression times when we were trying to put people
back to work. This is a program, a workers program, that put
people back to work in fact and they built a number of facilities
across the country. In particular they built our Flanagan
building. It is completely antiquated, but back to Willis's
point about growth, it is also completely inadequate to meet
the present needs, not to speak of the future needs, for growth
at East Carolina.
Holloway: Now your
faculty salaries also need to be raised, I guess, to be competitive
not only here but with your other peer institutions across
the country. Do you care to talk about that and what the challenges
are?
McLeod: Dr. Carroll
lead a study, Roy Carroll who was our former Executive Vice
President for Academic Affairs
Holloway: For the University
system.
McLeod: For the University
system-- led a study some months ago commissioned by President
Broad to look at that very point and to look at them within
those categories that Dick so well described a little bit
earlier. And each of us found that we were somewhere around
the 80th percentile with respect to our peers outside
the system, 80th percentile when you look at 100%,
100% being the ultimate, that we were about 80% off the mark
in terms of faculty salaries. So again, across the system
we need to do some things to bring faculty salaries in line
and to be able to not only attract, but retain outstanding
faculty for all of our campuses.
Holloway: Same situation
at ECU?
Aiken: Yes, Jay. We
made a good deal of comment about the capital needs, the building
needs, but as important as those are, the things that really
make a university something special, it would be the quality
of the students you bring to the campus and then the faculty
that is available to teach those students. And we have had
a competitive edge in the past. We've lost that edge, and
I think it's very important that we get back into the marketplace
and be able to bring the very best faculty to whether it's
Fayetteville State or East Carolina or wherever it may be
in the state so that we can indeed ensure that our students,
our young people and not so young people are gaining every
advantage they can in this competitive world.
Holloway: One of the
things your institution is known for is, I think you still
train more teachers than any other institution in the state.
I would guess that in times now where there's a tremendous
need for that you would need some of the best in that education
as well.
Aiken: We do indeed,
Jay. We are the largest producer of teachers in North Carolina
and a couple of years ago we were the 15th largest
producer in the country among colleges and universities. This
is an area in which we're going to have to devote enormous
resources as we look ahead, because we know right now that
the shortage of teachers within the next five or ten years
is going to be profound and we're going to have to find a
way to bring teachers into the field through ordinary techniques
and not so ordinary techniques. All of that is going to require
some of the very best minds and very best teachers we can
afford.
McLeod: Absolutely.
Holloway: Believe it
or not we've just got about four minutes left here. Let's
talk about student tuition, and Chancellor McLeod I'd like
to go to you. When we speak about diversity and student enrollment,
student tuition, your institution is one of the most diverse
institutions in the country, certainly in the state. Do you
care to talk about that and how that has affected your historically
black college nature and where you are now?
McLeod: Well our history
is exactly what it is. We are a historically black institution
and we will always be. That's just an established fact. The
fact that we've become as diverse as we are is something we
are extremely proud of and look forward to becoming even more
diverse in the future. And that will come as a consequence
of our being able to offer more programs, to refine and promote
high quality programs. As Chancellor Aiken has said, you need
resources in order to do that. We are able to bring new programs
online, but if you don't have the dollars behind those programs
then they can't be the best that they can be. One of the things
that I'm really pleased about with respect to our being a
system is that we are able to collaborate with each other.
And I can work with Dick Aiken and I can work with other chancellors
who already have quality programs in place and that strengthens
and enriches our system. We've learned a lot from East Carolina,
other schools have learned things from us and that's what
strengthens and makes the UNC System the best in the country
I think.
Holloway: Chancellor
Aiken, are we going to be looking at tremendous increases
in student tuition do you think, in your institution or across
the system?
Aiken: We will be seeing
some increases in tuition. I think there is no escaping it.
The state of North Carolina has a long tradition, in fact
it's written into the constitution of our state that education
should be provided at the least practicable cost. The definition
of that is a little hazy, but what it says and what we're
all operating from is the concept that we ought to make our
universities as accessible, as inexpensive as we possibly
can.
McLeod: Right.
Aiken: Provide more
and more opportunity for all the people of our state to gain
a higher education. That is the key to our success and our
future.
McLeod: Let me just
say that I don't believe that student tuition should be used
to support faculty salaries. I do believe that to use student
tuition to help develop new programs, improve existing programs
is fine, but I think the problem or the matter of faculty
salaries is somebody else's problem and somebody else should
deal with it, like the General Assembly.
Holloway: Well gentlemen,
we want to thank you so much and that's a good wrap here because
we do want to urge you to be aware of these issues, and the
General Assembly certainly will be taking care of that. Let
me thank Chancellor Aiken from ECU and Chancellor McLeod from
FSU for being with us today and helping us to better understand
the issues of funding public higher education in our state.
This has been our first in a series of talking with chancellors
about these issues. Stay tuned again next week Friday night
at 11:00 when we'll continue this discussion for a brief series.
If you would like more information
on this funding issue or more information on Fayetteville
State or East Carolina or our University system, we would
like you to visit our website, contact us at the mailing address
on your screen, visit us on the world wide web at the web
address or send us email. We will send that information to
you. Until next Friday night at 11:00 I'm Jay Holloway for
Black Issues Forum. You have a blessed evening and
a good night.
[THEME MUSIC]
Voiceover: This program
is made possible in part by contributions from UNC-TV viewers
like you.
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