1999 - 2000 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts
Episode #1524
FSU and ECU
April 7, 2000

Holloway: If you are a supporter of Fayetteville State University or East Carolina University, you will want to stay tuned. Next on Black Issues Forum, the chancellors of both those institutions on Black Issues Forum, next.

Voiceover: This program has been made possible in part by contributions from UNC-TV viewers like you.

[THEME MUSIC]

Holloway: Good evening and welcome to another edition of Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, your host. Tonight we begin the first in a series of programs featuring funding issues of our public higher education institutions, those within the UNC system. Tonight I am happy to welcome first Dr. Willis B. McLeod, chancellor of Fayetteville State University. Chancellor, thank you for being with us.

McLeod: Thank you.

Holloway: And also Chancellor Dr. Richard Eakin, chancellor of East Carolina University. Thank you, Dr. Eakin, for being with us as well.

Eakin: My pleasure, indeed.

Holloway: Tonight as we discuss the funding issues of these institutions within the UNC system, we want to begin with a package done by Sonya Williams of North Carolina Now. Last year lawmakers began to look at one of the issues, that historically black colleges perhaps were under-funded historically. Well, tonight we are going to take a look at that in retrospect with Sonya Williams, and we will be back with the chancellors after this.

[BEGIN TAPED SEGMENT]

Williams: North Carolina Central University is undergoing many costly changes, from the current construction projects throughout campus to the kinds of students they recruit. Chancellor Julius Chambers says that the university is raising its admission standards in order to compete with the larger universities.

Chambers: One of the goals was to up the SAT from about 742 to first 900 and then 950. And we have been able to increase the SAT average over 200 points over the past three years. Another thing we've looked at is developing a program to interest students in moving into graduate and professional school.

Williams: But these higher standards have come with a price. Central's enrollment dropped by about 400 students. As a result, the university lost over $3 million dollars in state funding, and 29 faculty positions. State funding for public universities is determined by a formula using the number of students enrolled full-time. It's called the Full-time Equivalent Enrollment Formula, and leaders at historically black universities say it's unfair.

Chambers: Our budgets are based on FTE, and as an abstract proposition, with everything being equal, that might work. But things aren't equal. And to start us at a starting line, assuming that we haven't had the problems that we've had over the years in terms of funding, and say that we are going to use a neutral allocation, really puts us at a disadvantage. And we are suffering that now.

Williams: But the results of a private study that examine the equity of funding for the state's 16 public universities concluded that five historically white universities were under-funded, and that the historically black schools were over-funded. Now lawmakers are allocating an extra $21 million dollars to these white universities. Critics, though, say that the study did not take into account the decades of discrimination and under-funding black colleges endured.

Chambers: We have supported, that is, the HBCUs, the $21 million dollar appropriation to the five institutions, because we know that they had a shortfall and they needed the money. What we would like to see is a similar kind of appropriation for the HBCUs. Not necessarily based on a difference in operating budgets over the past two or three years, but the difference in operating budgets over the past 30 and 40 years, which is, in my opinion, substantially more than $21 million dollars.

Williams: Representative Mickey Michaux and other black lawmakers pushed for additional funding for black colleges and universities this session.

Michaux: We tried to get funding for, the same type of funding, for those institutions that they are offering the other five institutions. We seem to have hit a note of sympathy or empathy, if you will. And we were told that if we could find or take the money from somewhere else that there is the possibility of getting it done. But when you start robbing Peter to pay Paul people begin to get up in arms about it.

F: Well, actually in the capital budget, the black colleges and universities fared much better than did the other ones. I think the Board of Governors recognized that they were priority needs, and they addressed a lot of those. On the House side of the budget, we chose to adopt those recommendations as were given to us by the Board of Governors. Of course, there has been an ongoing debate between some of the schools, both black and white, that have been traditionally maybe under-funded to some degree, and there was an attempt made in the last two or three years by allowing them to keep some of their reversions. So I think there is an attempt to do that.

Williams: Allowing certain schools to keep their reversions, or unspent money from one budget period to the next, has been the state's effort to help under-funded universities. Russell says lawmakers relied on the Board of Governors' priority list regarding funding for our public universities since the Board is ultimately responsible for making sure the schools are run well.

F: As to those problems with the funding 20, 30, 40 years ago, that is something that I understand that a commission looked at about four or five years ago to see what we needed to do to change that. And while there may be some things, right now I think the funding is on par. But it's certainly an issue that we'll continue to look at to make sure that all of our universities are in the best shape that they can be.

Williams: But Michaux says that unless extraordinary efforts are made, black colleges and universities may never catch up with historically white schools. He adds those extra efforts should begin with alumni at these universities, community leaders, and the state.

Michaux: It may be too late to do something in this long session about it. But I think that we have ample opportunity over the interim to come back in the short session and provide a specific means for providing these HBCUs with enough funds to begin to move toward catching up.

Williams: Meanwhile, North Carolina Central and other historically black schools are fighting to become more competitive institutions. And, while they say they cannot dwell on the past, university leaders also want all lawmakers to realize the history of inequality cannot be ignored.

Chambers: .but we have endured over the years, and I am sure we will continue to do so. But it's a challenge during the period that we are dealing with this kind of budget allocation. But none of us can ever forget that we didn't have the same appropriation that many of the other schools have had.

[END OF TAPED SEGMENT]

Holloway: Now that was last year's session, and we are back now in the year 2000. And Chancellor McLeod, are those issues still prevalent today in 2000 among the historically black colleges and universities? Particularly at Fayetteville State.

McLeod: Yes they are, Jay. And I think what is important to point out here is the fact that we are a 16-campus system, and I think Chancellor Chambers made an excellent point about our being competitive. Not competitive within the system necessarily, but competitive outside the university system, competitive with private institutions in North Carolina and outside the state. And looking at the fact that in order to do that, that we've got to provide level funding, equal funding for all of our campuses. There is a basic infrastructure with respect to technology, with respect to our, not only technology, with respect to classroom needs, science, fine arts, other lab facilities, faculty salaries, all of which must be looked at if we are going to be competitive with peer institutions outside the university system. I think that the work that has been done thus far by President Broad and people that she has brought in to assist us has really put us on the right track to really move in the right direction, downrange to level out and bring equity to the system.

Holloway: Now, Chancellor Eakin from East Carolina, Chancellor McLeod just mentioned that-not necessarily competitive within the system, but external. And I think that a lot of people in our state get that confused, that when we say equal funding and equitable funding that Central should be funded at the same level as Carolina or ECU. But there is a peer institution process. Can you and Chancellor McLeod help explain that, please?

Eakin: I'll give it a whirl, Jay. North Carolina public universities are funded according to their status with the Carnegie Commission. There are a number of different classifications, Carnegie classifications: research, doctoral, comprehensive, liberal arts. And these classifications are really indicators of the number of degrees you produce at the doctoral level or at the masters level. And the state over the many years has decided that that would be a reasonable way to fund higher education in North Carolina. I think Chancellor McLeod is right on target when he talks about the fact that we need to be at, or on a competitive level with, the universities outside the state of North Carolina. This state has for all of its history taken great pride in its university system. It's one of the best in the country. Everyone will tell you it's one of the two or three best in the country.

McLeod: Absolutely.

Eakin: But we are in some danger I think of losing that competitive edge. And so we need to step up to the mark as citizens of the state of North Carolina and make sure that our universities are competitive with other public higher education systems, and the private schools as well.

Holloway: Now, from a diversity point of view, your institutions are diverse, and although you are not direct competitors, let's clarify that. Are you all in the same peer group first, I guess?

Eakin: Well, East Carolina University is a doctoral university and Dr. McLeod's University is comprehensive. So that puts us in a slightly different category. We just became doctoral, in fact, within the last two years. And so our funding level this year will increase as a result of that.

Holloway: Chancellor McLeod, are your constituents confused about that issue? Do they think that your institution should be funded at the level of ECU and they may not understand this peer classification?

McLeod: Probably so. We are comprehensive, one, because we do offer a doctoral level program in educational administration. We are the only HBCU that does offer such a program. As a consequence we do get a little higher level of funding. But we don't get as high a level of funding as East Carolina does and should not, because of their particular level of funding, because they are in a different peer group. And each of us in our various peer groups have been compared to other universities across the country in our peer group. For instance, we are compared with Jackson State, Florida A&M, Farley Dickinson Schools such as that.

Holloway: Now let me ask you something, when Chancellor Chambers says "catch up," does he mean catch up to those institutions or catch up to these other institutions within our system?

McLeod: I think he means catching up in both respects. First of all, in North Carolina, with respect to historical funding in North Carolina, with respect to construction. For instance, back in '73 when we had the bond referendum, the historically black schools had to use bond money primarily for repair and renovation, whereas the historically white institutions were able to use more of their money-they used some for R&R-but were able to use more of their money for new building capital construction. And it was because of the historical lack of funding of HBCUs that had put them in such a tremendous state of disrepair. So when you look at it from that perspective, historically there has been a great deal of inequity. But since 1972 when we became a system, and under the leadership of President Friday and Spangler and now President Broad, I think we've made tremendous progress, and based on studies that the General Assembly has commissioned and the work that President Broad has taken the initiative to do to see that equity is indeed brought in place, we are going to see a lot of progress in the future.

Holloway: Chancellor Eakin, speaking of that equity situation, your institution, as part of the system, I think received this $21 million dollar, part of the $21 million dollar allocation.

Eakin: Part of! [LAUGHING]

Holloway: As a result of a study about five years ago that actually said that when they studied, the HBCUs were actually over-funded, and the white institutions were under-funded. Do you care to talk about that and clarify that?

Eakin: Yes. What happened, Jay, there was a realization that several of the universities, five of us in particular, had grown in a rather remarkable rate over the years. And some of those years of considerable growth, the funding was not at the full level. In fact, some years it was at half level. And consequently we found ourselves in the position of being considerably larger, but not having the same amount of money per student to fund our universities. And so that study was completed and it did indeed reveal that those five universities were some $21 million dollars totally short.

Holloway: Now there are five historically black colleges in North Carolina: Fayetteville State University, Elizabeth City State, North Carolina Central, A&T, and Winston Salem State.

McLeod and Eakin: Right.

Holloway: Let's talk a little bit now about your particular institution's needs. When we talk about funding that usually falls into about three major categories: construction, faculty salaries, and student tuition. So if we could talk about those three issues in the range of the program. Let me give you gentlemen an opportunity to talk about your capital needs of construction at your institutions, and why that is important for the general public to understand that they support the entire university's funding effort.

McLeod: Perfect segue, Jay. Chancellor Eakin mentioned the historical situation with respect to the historical white institutions and what had happened with enrollment growth. The historically black institutions now have targeted enrollment growth over the next ten years. We are targeted to grow to 6,000; Elizabeth City to 3,000.

Holloway: And you are coming from where, where are you now?

McLeod: We are at 4400 now on our main campus and over 800 at Fort Bragg, so I think we are going to hit that mark before 2008. Which means that we definitely need to run extremely fast to catch up with respect to capital needs. Capital needs not only for residential space but for classroom space, technology, and all of the other services related to teaching and learning for students. So we are in a real catch-22. The historically white institutions are still growing. We are looking at 50,000 new students coming into the system over the next ten years, and everybody is growing, so everybody has got the same needs right now and that's why it's so significant that we pass this bond referendum or take some action within the next year to respond to this tremendous problem that we face.

Holloway: Any similar problems, Chancellor Eakin?

Eakin: Yes. Dr. McLeod and I share one problem that we would both like to solve very quickly, and that is the need for better science facilities on our campuses. The firm of Eva Klein and Associates came in at the request of the General Assembly and did a very considerable study of the needs for capital facilities on the campuses, and what they found was nearly $7 billion dollars worth of needs. Now this is not only new construction but this is renovation of existing facilities.

Holloway: That is system-wide, 16 campuses.

Eakin: System-wide, yes. If you look at that total, about $750 million dollars of that is what we would describe as extremely urgent needs. And on our campus it would be to provide $54 million dollars for a new science and technology building. Our chemistry classes at East Carolina, and this is not unusual, you would find this across the state, are being taught in a building that was built by the WPA. This is a facility that was not a terribly good science facility when it was built.

Holloway: WPA-clarify that.

Eakin: Well, this is the, back in the depression times when we were trying to put people back to work, this is a program, a worker's program that put people back to work in fact, and they built a number of facilities across the country. In particular they built our Flannagan building. It is completely antiquated. But back to Willis's point about growth, it is also completely inadequate to meet the present needs, not to speak of the future needs for growth at East Carolina.

Holloway: Now your faculty salaries also need to be raised in order to be competitive, not only here but with your other peer institutions across the country. Do you care to talk about that and what the challenges are?

McLeod: Dr. Carroll led a study. Roy Carroll, who was our former Executive Vice President of Academic Affairs.

Holloway: For the University System.

McLeod: For the University System. He led a study some months ago commissioned by President Broad to look at that very point. And to look at them within those categories that Dick so well described a little bit earlier, and each of us found that we were somewhere around the 80^th percentile with respect to our peers outside the system. 80^th percentile when you look at 100 % of, 100% being the ultimate, that we were about 80% off the mark in terms of faculty salaries. So again, across the system, we need to do some things to bring faculty salaries in line and to be able to not only attract but retain our standing faculty for all of our campuses.

Holloway: Same situation at ECU, doctorate?

Eakin: Yes, Jay. And we have made a good deal of comment about capital needs, the building needs, but as important as those are, the things that really make a university something special would be the quality of the students that you bring to the campus, and then the faculty that is available to teach those students. And we have had a competitive edge in the past. We have lost that edge, and I think it is very important that we get back into the marketplace and be able to bring the very best faculty, to whether it's Fayetteville State or East Carolina, wherever it may be in the state, so that we can indeed ensure that our students, our young people, and not so young people, are gaining every advantage they can in this competitive world.

Holloway: One of the things I think your institution is known for is, I think you still train more teachers than any other institution in the state. And I would guess that in times now when there is a tremendous need for that, you need some of the best in that education as well.

Eakin: We do indeed, Jay. We are the largest producer of teachers in North Carolina and a couple years ago we were the 15^th largest producer in the country among colleges and universities. This is an area in which we are going to have to devote enormous resources as we look ahead, because we know right now that the shortage of teachers within the next five or ten years is going to be profound. And we are going to have to find a way to bring teachers into the field through ordinary techniques and not so ordinary techniques. And all of that is going to require some of the very best minds and very best teachers we can put before the students.

McLeod: Absolutely.

Holloway: Believe it or not we only have about four minutes left here. Let's talk about the student tuition, and Chancellor McLeod, I'd like to go to you. When you speak about diversity and student enrollment and student tuition, your institution is one of the most diverse institutions in the country. Certainly in this state. Do you care to talk about that and how that has affected your historically black college nature and where you are now with that?

McLeod: Well, our history is exactly what it is. We are a historically black institution and we will always be. That is just an established fact. And the fact that we have become as diverse as we are is something that we are extremely proud of, and we look forward to becoming even more diverse in the future. And that will come as a consequence of our being able to offer more programs, to refine and to promote higher quality programs. As Chancellor Eakin has said, you need resources in order to do that. We are able to bring new programs online, but if you don't have the dollars behind those programs, then they can't be the best that they can be. One of the things that I am really pleased about with respect to our being a system is that we are able to collaborate with each other. And I can work with Dick Eakin and I can work with other chancellors who already have quality programs in place, and that strengthens and enriches our system. We've learned a lot from East Carolina. Other schools have learned things from us, and that is what strengthens and makes the UNC system the best in the country I think.

Holloway: Chancellor Eakin, are we going to be looking at tremendous increases in student tuition in your institution or across the system?

Eakin: We will be seeing some increases in tuition. I think there is no escaping it. The state of North Carolina has a long tradition, in fact it is written into the constitution of our state, that education should be provided at the least practical cost. The definition of that is a little hazy. But what it says and what we are all operating from is the concept that we ought to make our universities as accessible, as inexpensive as we possibly can.

McLeod: Right.

Eakin: Provide more and more opportunity for all of the people of our state to gain a higher education. That is the key to our success and to our future.

McLeod: Let me just say that I don't believe that student tuition should be used to support faculty salaries. I do believe that to use student tuition to help develop new programs and improve existing programs is fine, but I think the problem, or the matter of faculty salaries is somebody else's problem and somebody else should deal with it, like the General Assembly. [LAUGHTER]

Holloway: Well gentlemen, we want to thank you so much, and that is a good wrap here, because we do want to urge you to be aware of these issues and the General Assembly certainly will be taking care of that. Let me thank Chancellor Eakin from ECU and Chancellor McLeod from FSU for being here today and helping us to better understand the issues of funding public higher education in our state. And this has been our first in a series of talking with chancellors about this issue. Stay tuned again next week, Friday night at 11 o'clock, when we will continue this discussion for a brief series.

If you would like more information on this funding issue or more information on Fayetteville state or East Carolina or our University System, we'd like you to visit our website. Contact us at the mailing address on your screen. Visit us on the world wide web at the web address or send us email. We will send that information to you. Until next Friday night at 11 o'clock I am Jay Holloway for Black Issues Forum. You have a blessed evening and a good night.

[THEME MUSIC]

[END OF PROGRAM]