1999 - 2000 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts
Episode #1525
WSSU & UNCG
April 14, 2000

Holloway: .funding for our public universities in North Carolina. Who will pay, and what are the needs? We'll talk with the chancellors of Winston Salem State and the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, next on Black Issues Forum. Stay tuned.

Voiceover: This program is made possible in part by contributions from UNC-TV viewers like you.

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Holloway: Good evening and welcome to another edition of Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway your host, and this evening we continue our study in a series, or our program in a series on public funding of higher education institutions here in the UNC system, and tonight we are delighted to have the chancellor of Winston Salem State University, Chancellor Martin. Chancellor, thank you for being with us.

Martin: Nice to be here.

Holloway: And also via technology we have our Chancellor Patricia Sullivan from the Tele-Learning Center at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. Chancellor Sullivan, thank you for being with us as well.

Sullivan: Pleasure.

Holloway: Alrighty. Well, let's talk this morning. Last week we had Chancellor McLeod from Fayetteville State University, and Chancellor Eakin from East Carolina, and we talked about some of the same issues that we'd like to talk to you about today, but from your point of view at Winston Salem State University and the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. Let's review once again for our viewers that may not understand why this is such an issue. Why are the funding needs so important and urgent right now? Chancellor Martin, let's start with you. You are very new at Winston Salem State University. And what is your assessment on this and why is it so important right now?

Martin: Jay, it's such an important issue at this moment, because there is an expectation that the enrollment will blossom substantially at the institutions over the next six to eight years. Winston Salem State University will be a recipient of a large portion of those students and will be expected to handle a larger portion of those students, percentage-wise in particular. And normally in the budgeting process of the UNC system we tend to see enrollment growth, then after the enrollment growth we accommodate changes in budgets, increases in facility needs and etcetera. But we expect this groundswell in enrollment to have such a profound impact on our institutions in particular, and certainly at Winston Salem State University, that we really need to get ahead of the game here and get our funding in place here to address some of the critical facility needs of the campuses. Each of the universities will be expected to accommodate a large portion of this enrollment growth. At this moment it is projected to be about 50,000 students. And not only is it a matter of accommodating enrollment growth, but it is also a matter of accommodating renovation and retrofitting of facilities that have been longstanding on our campuses that have a potential impact on the quality of our programs and our ability to recruit and accommodate our appropriate share of our enrollment growth as well.

Holloway: Chancellor Sullivan, you are at another point in the Triad there. Are you also having similar needs, and is it as pressing to you as it is for the other institutions, like it is for Chancellor Martin?

Sullivan: Yes it is. As the doctoral-1 university in the UNC system, we've experienced rapid growth in the last several years and expect that to continue forward through the decade, as Chancellor Martin has mentioned. In addition to the enrollment press, higher education is changing so dramatically as we look at the impact of technology, especially on teaching and learning, scholarship and public service. And also the increased competition for the brain power that resides in our faculty. So at the same time that we are dealing with an enrollment bulge, we are also dealing with faculty about to retire and increased competition for their replacements, and the demands of students and faculty for facilities and programs that will equip them to compete well in the knowledge-based economy of this century.

Holloway: Now when you use the terminology 'competition,' I would like for both of you chancellors to help clarify to our audience what you mean by competition, within the state and throughout the country. There is a terminology called 'peer institution rankings,' and I think that was a Carnegie study that did that. Can you all help explain that for our audience?

Martin: Surely. There certainly is competition, as Chancellor Sullivan has suggested. We see a large percentage of our faculty reaching a retirement age, to say the least. And if you look regionally throughout the southeast and part of the United States, every state in this part of the country, and nationally, is looking very aggressively to recruit and obtain the very best faculty, faculty who'll come to our institutions today with a very different set of skills as we enhance the institutions' missions to be more competitive in the future. Not only within the UNC system, but within the state of North Carolina, and again within the regional states, we are aggressively trying to recruit the very best people and retain the very best people. And that requires not only providing competitive compensation, but you are also going to have to provide the very best facilities, classrooms, research facilities, and office space for faculty to do their very, very best work. And that creates a level of competition unlike we have seen in the past, very frankly. And again, it's more than just salary. There are a whole range of areas that we must make investments in on our campuses to ensure that we are in a better posture to not only recruit the very best faculty, but administrators and staff that will help us evolve competitively improving graduate programs and undergraduate programs. To recruit the very best students to our campuses as well, to meet the growing demand for the very best graduates in this evolving economy. And Chancellor Sullivan has made a reference to this as a 'knowledge-based economy.' That means that the institutions will continually play an increasingly more important role and provide in the brain trust of young people who will be outfitted in these corporations and agencies for years to come.

Holloway: Chancellor Sullivan, can you help explain this, who the competition really is for UNC-G and for some of the other institutions in our UNC system?

Sullivan: Yes. Well, when you talk about competition for faculty you are really talking about competition across the nation. When faculty look for positions, they will look nationally and they will be looking for the institutions like the ones that they are either at now or that they would like to be associated with. A lot of that will be dependent on the particular field that they are in. So for example at UNC-G with our strengths in the arts and humanities, business, nursing, music, we will be competing for faculty in those areas nationally. And Chancellor Martin is correct that faculty look beyond salary, they will look at the salary offer, they will look at the working environment, what kind of facilities do you provide for them, what are the benefit programs, they will look at the quality of the students, and they will be evaluating offers from UNC-G against offers from other institutions. That's a recruitment issue. There is another issue which we are experiencing right now, which is retention. When you have very good faculty who are noted teachers and scholars, their peers across the country, and indeed the world, learn about them, and so people come and try to raid your faculty. We've recently experienced faculty being offered phenomenal salaries and packages that are very difficult for us to compete against. We are doing our best. We don't want to lose these faculty. But the reality is that we don't have a well-armed arsenal to do that.

Holloway: Let me see if I understand. When we talked with President Broad and we had the feature last week, this study ranks peer institutions by your major research, comprehensive, I think, and liberal arts and regional or doctoral. Those I believe are the general categories in which the competition funding levels lie. Is that correct? And where do your institutions fit?

Martin: Well, we are a baccalaureate institution at Winston Salem State University with a regional mission, with aspirations to grow beyond the baccalaureate category. But the Carnegie classifications of the universities in the UNC system have been used in many, many ways to create funding levels within the UNC system, and what may be considered to be an equitable way. But competition for the best faculty, for the best students, to recruit to your institutions as well, are not restricted within that peer institution or group within the Carnegie classification by any means. Chancellor Sullivan may be recruiting faculty to her campus as a doctoral institution. But the person that she may be attempting to recruit, or those that we may be attempting to recruit at Winston Salem State, are person being recruited by institutions that may be research-based institutions as well. And so if we are attempting to recruit the very best people, the institution's Carnegie classification is in many ways not restrictive in terms of who your competition may be or your peers may be in many ways. But at the same time, certainly an individual looking at an institution in some ways does look at it's current Carnegie classification.

Holloway: Chancellor Sullivan, would you agree with that? And do you have a different viewpoint or is it the same?

Sullivan: Yes, I agree with Chancellor Martin, and I'll just add another clarification, which is that the categories are good ways to develop benchmarks, that is to look at where a UNC institution stands compared to peers across the country that are those kinds of institutions. And it's a way to measure the competitive level of something like faculty salary. But the reality is that when you are competing for new faculty especially, you are competing against your peers and beyond your peers in the Carnegie scheme.

Holloway: So your classification in that scheme is doctoral, is it?

Sullivan: Yes, we are a doctoral-1 university, which means we offer a full variety of programs, including 11 doctoral programs, and we do research, last year funded to the tune of slightly more than $23 million dollars. So it is the combination of the level, degree levels that are offered, as well as the research support, most especially federal support, that currently characterizes an institution according to a certain Carnegie classification.

Holloway: Let me bring this home to our viewers, and you all let me know if I am correct in this. So therefore, the expectation for citizens of this state or the General Assembly or the university system, would not be to fund a Winston Salem State baccalaureate institution at the same level of a doctoral institution, of a UNC-G. So you all are not in direct competition for equal funding.

Martin: In many ways that is correct.

Holloway: Let's talk now about why it is important that our citizens understand why you should be funded at these levels to stay competitive. I mean, not too many programs are taking the time as we are doing to explain this. But talk to our viewers now and let them know why it is necessary that you get this funding, and we are going to talk about your construction needs next.

Martin: What you are going to find is, again nationally, universities are beginning to recognize the many, many challenges that higher education is confronted with today. The ability to recruit and retain the very, very best faculty and academic leaders in your institution, the ability to ensure that you are putting forth investments in your technology infrastructure so that not only are you being able to accommodate the mission of the institution, but meeting the needs of your faculty and students. So that when they leave your institution, your students are as competitive as those you will find anywhere. The competition nationally is growing immensely. The importance that institutions are placing on enhanced quality of academic programs, the public service mission, the research agenda of the faculty of the institution, has placed an enormous stress on those campuses to ensure that they are much more business-like in their management, they are accommodating the growing pressures of the public on how we use the resources that we garner. As Chancellor Sullivan suggested earlier, the growing focus on a knowledge-based economy is placed on the universities throughout this country, front and center, in terms of being able to assist the industries and agencies of this country to be increasingly more competitive. So they are going to need to be much more comprehensively prepared, if you will, our graduates of our institutions, very candidly. The competition again continues to grow immensely in that regard.

Holloway: Chancellor Sullivan, do you have anything to add to that, as to why our general public really needs to understand why it's so important?

Sullivan: Well, I think there is another factor which Chancellor Martin alluded to, which is the impact that graduates of the university system will have on their communities in creating the economy of the future. This miracle of North Carolina's growth in the last 20 years has been fueled in large part by the development of new kinds of business and industries that didn't exist 20 years ago. And we expect that to continue at an accelerated rate. That means that our communities, regionally and state-wide, are looking much more to the university to generate the brain power to seed and form the industries of the future, to ensure economic well-being for all of North Carolina.

Holloway: Now, a few years ago there was a study, or actually members of the North Carolina Legislative Black Caucus said that the HBCUs, historically black colleges and universities in the public university system in North Carolina, had disproportionate needs. And I think $35 million was requested. But there was a study that found out that actually many, about five, traditionally white institutions actually had been receiving less funding. And the HBCUs ended up getting the I think $21 million dollars this year. Is that still a need? And I'd like for both of you all to comment on that observation.

Martin: Absolutely. I would suggest that there clearly is still a need there. What you will find within the UNC system and universities nationally, certainly within the UNC system, historically black colleges and universities have assumed a greater role of accommodating a larger portion of students in our state who have not attained the skill set that they need to be as successful in the academic community. So a large portion of our dollars have been used to address issues related to skill development through, and I hasten not to use necessarily the word 'remediation,' but certainly helping to capture young people and ensure that we are providing the quality of instruction and support services to ensure their successes in our institutions. Much of that funding for those activities has been derived from our normal instructional budget appropriations from the UNC system. What we've also found though is that the historically black colleges and universities have tended to be less successful than our counterparts in the university system in attracting private funds, and certainly we need to enhance our development activity, our promotion and marketing activity, so that we are pre-posturing ourselves to be much more aggressive, competitive institutions in use of a diverse set of funds, other than those that we've received through appropriations from our state. At this moment though, also, the historically black colleges tend to be smaller institutions. And the economies of skill put us in a position where we are trying to do, as a comprehensive institution, a variety of services that we provide to our students who come to our campuses expecting the same kinds and qualities of services and environment that is created to support intellectual growth and personal and social growth in addition to helping that individual achieve their educational goals. So that puts us in a very competitive posture, while we are living predominantly on our state appropriations. So that economy of skill puts us in a very significant disadvantage as well in many, many ways.

Holloway: Chancellor Sullivan, how does that observation affect you at UNC-Greensboro?

Sullivan: Well, at the time that the General Assembly asked for the study of, the so-called 'Equity Study' within the UNC system, that study was really focused on what we would call operational dollars for the universities. It was not, for example, focused on faculty salaries. And what it found was that there were five institutions that were historically under-funded in operations. That would range from things like supporting admissions and registration, and academic department operations. And those five institutions received an adjustment in the base budget.

Holloway: Did that include your institution?

Sullivan: For UNC-G that represented a $6.8 million dollar adjustment in the base budget. And for us at the time, we were the institution showing the greatest need or the largest gap. It probably represents the confluence of a lot of historical and things that have happened over a long period of time. What we did with those funds was to put a lot of resources into support staff for student services on the academic and administrative side, so it made it easier for students to register and get grades and get advising and all of those things that students come to expect. In addition we were able to provide funds for the operation of academic departments, buying supplies and supporting the faculty in their primary mission of teaching and research and scholarship, and it's made a very big benefit.

Holloway: Thank you. Chancellor Martin, many supporters of the historically black colleges still feel that historically the funding has not been equitable, so that when you read, now transition into capital needs, that many of the HBCUs have disproportionate needs to bring them up to a competitive situation. Is that still true now, and what are your capital needs there at Winston Salem?

Martin: Interesting question. I believe personally, and I think many of the chancellors of the historically black colleges in the UNC system believe, that the Eva Klein study has brought forward some of the glaring concerns that many of us have expressed concern about in the past, and some of our state legislators, the Black Caucus members in particular, around not only quantity of space, classroom research space, faculty office space, in that context, but also quality of space. And we believe that the Eva Klein study has brought forward again those general concerns from each of the campuses, and it is providing an opportunity for each of the chancellors to suggest that space needs are clearly defined in a very articulated way, and a justifiable, defensible way, in the Eva Klein study. At the top of that list for Winston Salem State University, very frankly, is a need to address major renovations to health sciences facilities, what we refer to as the Atkins Facility, we have already received authorization to move forward on this facility, and the funding for that facility at this moment has been put on hold until we address some of the challenges that resulted from the flood. The second area of great concern for us that we see as an evolving opportunity for Winston Salem State University is in its computer science/information sciences area. And we certainly are looking forward to the need to put in place a very high quality, first-rate facility for computer science, at a rate of about $12.2 million dollars. Life sciences, computer science, physical sciences facilities on all of the campuses has been identified as an area that has simply been ignored extensively.

Holloway: I was about to say the same thing. Chancellor Sullivan, I have noticed that that is a trend. Is it true at your institution as well?

Sullivan: Yes. In fact, what the Eva Klein demonstrated was that UNC-G was the "neediest institution" in the UNC system for funds to enhance the quality as well as the volume of our facilities. What's important to note is that, given that UNC-G is an old institution, we've been here for more than a century, and we have many, many old buildings, 71% of the almost $500 million dollars of need determined by Eva Klein would be used at UNC-Greensboro for renovation. Three years ago, as a result of our planning process, we looked at the need to upgrade academic facilities. And after a lot of study and thought and reflection, our planning council recommended that our highest priority was a new science building to replace a 60-year old WPA facility that we are using today. That has been our number one priority since the planning council made that recommendation. It's still our number one priority. After that, if you look at the list from the UNC-G portfolio, you will see that most of our needs have to do with renovating existing buildings, many of them old and historic, rebuilding our campus infrastructure-that's not very glamorous, but that is what we need-and essentially also to purchase land. We are the most land-poor campus in the UNC system. And in order to accommodate the student growth and the facilities expansion, we must have additional land, most importantly within our campus core, and then beyond that.

Holloway: Let me say, we have just less than a minute for each of you, and I'd like to ask you to address who is going to pay for this? Less than a minute for each of you.

Martin: We expect, very frankly, that, in the tradition of the UNC system, that the taxpayers will be asked to assist the institutions in paying for the large portion of this. However, we have been, certainly during this study process with Eva Klein, recognizing the need to take on a greater burden, the responsibility of identifying resources through private fundraising issues, philanthropic investments and the like. But we also, there has been much discussion about placing some of this on the backs of students through fees, increases, as well.

Holloway: I know they don't want to hear that.

Martin: No, they don't want to hear that, and I very frankly would not like personally to see that become a part of the general tradition of the NC System, very frankly.

Holloway: Chancellor Sullivan, 30 seconds, what would you say?

Sullivan: Yes, we clearly are going to have to turn to the taxpayers for support for our academic facilities, as we are already turning to our students for support of student fee-supported facilities. And I think it is important for taxpayers to know that our students are already shouldering a very high debt level. At UNC-G, with some new plans we have, that debt level for students over the next year will jump to about $7,000 dollars. So I guess I would say to the taxpayers, help give the high quality students and faculty at the university the facilities that merit the quality of the people who will use them, so that we can help prepare North Carolina for a great future.

Holloway: Well, I want to thank both of you, Chancellor Sullivan at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro, and Chancellor Martin at Winston Salem State University, one of the newest chancellors in the UNC system. Congratulations. And thanks to both of you for joining us. And thank you for watching tonight on Black Issues Forum. This is our second in a series talking with chancellors about public funding of our higher education institutions in the UNC system. Next week we will have Elizabeth City State University's Chancellor Mickey Burnim, and also the chancellor of UNC-Charlotte, Dr. James Woodward. We hope you will join us again.

If you'd like more information on these issues that we've talked about, or to get to either website at UNC-Greensboro or Winston Salem State University, visit our information, our website, or email us or call us, we will put the information on the screen at the end of the program, and we'd like for you to contact us. And also, stay tuned again next week, every Friday night at 11 o'clock on Black Issues Forum, there is the information on your screen now. Until next week, for the entire crew here, I am Jay Holloway. You have a blessed evening and a good night.

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