1999 - 2000 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts
Episode #1526
Chancellors Mickey Burnim and James Woodward

Holloway: Our special coverage on funding public higher education in North Carolina continues next, with chancellors from Elizabeth City State University and UNC-Charlotte, next on Black Issues Forum. Stay tuned.

Voiceover: This program is made possible in part by contributions from UNC-TV viewers like you.

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Holloway: You may be aware that one of the most critical issues facing our state this year and for years to come is the funding of our state's public higher education institutions, specifically those on the UNC system of higher education. And especially in light of the fifty thousand students expected to enroll over the next ten years. I'm Jay Holloway, and welcome to Black Issues Forum. Today we're happy to have chancellors from two institutions. First, let me introduce you to Chancellor Mickey Burnim, chancellor of Elizabeth City State University. Chancellor Burnim, thank you for being with us.

Burnim: Thank you. It's a pleasure.

Holloway: And also chancellor from UNC-Charlotte, Chancellor James Woodward. Chancellor Woodward, thank you for being with us today as well.

Woodward: Great! Glad to be here, Jay. Thank you.

Holloway: I want to thank both of you for coming here and continuing with our series. We've been talking with your other peer chancellors in the UNC system about this tremendous need that the state has. But if you could help our audience to understand, why is it so important right now that they understand the needs of funding our public higher education institutions in the state. Chancellor Burnim, it's been said that many of the HBCUs perhaps are at a greater need. Is that true for your institution?

Burnim: I wouldn't say a greater need, but the HBCUs in the UNC system certainly have a tremendous need. And if those institutions are to reach their full potential in serving the people of North Carolina and serving all of our students, those needs will have to be addressed.

Holloway: And Chancellor Woodward, how about your institution?

Woodward: Well, you indicated what the challenge is for UNC-Charlotte and that is to help accommodate the growth in the University of North Carolina that should take place over the next ten years. We're simply short of space. And indeed, that growth is going to be here. We have heard arguments that it was not likely to occur. Well, they're wrong. That growth is going to be here and our campuses really must be prepared to accommodate those young people.

Holloway: Both of your institutions at different geographic locations of the state and have different missions, different sizes. Let's talk about what is the goal of the funding level and what is the real challenge in addition to meeting the enrollment growth. But who are you really trying to compete with and what level are you trying to get to? There is a peer definition that the Carnegie Report started. And I know we can't explain the whole thing here. But basically there are different categories. Chancellor Burnim, what is the category Elizabeth City State University fits in and where are you trying to rank?

Burnim: Elizabeth City State University is currently classified as a baccalaureate level institution, a baccalaureate II, which means that we offer baccalaureate degrees. And we are slated to grow from just under 2,000; we were at 1,966 this fall, to 3,000 by the year 2008. And so that represents about a 57 percent growth rate for us over that period of time. And we need to do a number of things to be able to achieve that. It is rather ambitious but that's the target that we had set for ourselves some four years ago it so happens that it's the same target that was ratified by the Board of Governors in trying to develop a plan that would accommodate the additional 50,000 students that are expected to present themselves for enrollment in UNC institutions over the next eight to ten years.

Holloway: Chancellor Woodward, I would assume that UNC-Charlotte is in a different classification than baccalaureate?

Woodward: Well, it's - as you say, the University funds its campuses differently based on the classifications. And the classifications relate to mission, and appropriately so. Different missions call for different funding. UNC-Charlotte will this year satisfy the requirements to be classified as a doctoral institution and will join the University of North Carolina at Greensboro and East Carolina University in that category. That will take place this year.

Holloway: Okay. So let me make sure here - One of the things, I think, is a point of clarification for those in our state is that, why is not, for example, Elizabeth City State funded at the same level as UNC-Charlotte. I think we hopefully just clarified that, at least how the State looks at that in terms of the classifications. But I would also assume that in order for you to be competitive and to reach the goals you just stated, that you want to be competitive with other like institutions in the country. Can we talk about that for a few minutes? And who might be considered your competition around the country, if we can say that way, Chancellor Burnim?

Burnim: Well, as we look about the country for the selection of peer institutions, that is, institutions that are very similar to us against whom we can compare ourselves to gauge how well we're doing or where we need to focus our attention to make improvements, we look at institutions with similar missions. Elizabeth City State University has been around for more than 108 years. We were founded as an institution for teacher preparation. That remains at the core of our mission but we also offer a broad range of baccalaureate degree programs in the arts and sciences. And so in looking for peers we would look for institutions that have similar mission statements, similar in size, and have a similar focus today. There are some peers within the state. For example, we look at Winston-Salem State University for example. Going outside of the state, there are a number of institutions around the country. I just had occasion to visit one, Athens State University in Alabama. It's about the same size, focuses on teacher education, and has a similar kind of history to ECSU. So we would look for institutions like that for making comparisons to gauge the progress that we're making.

Holloway: UNC-Charlotte, I understand your students have been talking about even the name being close to UNC-Chapel Hill. But are you in competition with Chapel Hill first and then let's move across that.

Woodward: Sure. We really think of our competition as taking place within disciplines. And the competition is aimed at attracting and keeping the best faculty that we can possibly bring to UNC-Charlotte within a given discipline. We have, for example, a college of architecture. There are only two colleges of architecture in North Carolina, one in South Carolina. And so when we hire faculty within architecture, we're competing against colleges of architecture across the country, not so-called peer institutions. We have just lost an outstanding young faculty member in civil engineering who had been with us three years, to Stanford University. Now I would suggest that's an indication that we're competing with Stanford when we lose a faculty member to Stanford. And indeed we have lost faculty to institutions within the University of North Carolina system as well. So when we compete we really do tend to think of our competition as taking place within the colleges, within the disciplines, in engineering, architecture, information technology, computer science and so forth.

Holloway: So in other words, gentlemen, we're saying now that the public should really understand that when your institutions or all of our public institutions in North Carolina are funded really now to be prepared to really be the best institutions, continue to be among the best institutions in the future right here in North Carolina. Correct? I mean that's what we really .

Woodward: I think it's critical that Elizabeth City State, just like UNC-Charlotte, hire and keep outstanding faculty. That is the only way we can properly serve the young people that come to our institutions. And in order to do that we simply must have salaries that will let us offer competitive packages for faculty or offer fair salaries to faculty that are with us so that other institutions don't take them outside of North Carolina.

Holloway: Now both of your gentlemen, about a year or so ago, hosted Town Hall meetings that this program came in on race relations. I want to thank you all again publicly for doing that. And I will say on the air that those were two of the best locations we went to. And we appreciate that. Let me say though, that historically black colleges and many institutions, Chancellor Burnim, are really the economic backbone of these black communities. And I would assume that ECSU is, there in Elizabeth City.

Burnim: ECSU is really a resource for the northeastern region of North Carolina. What a lot of people, I think, don't fully understand is that the HBCUs really are among the most ethnically diverse institutions that we have, certainly in North Carolina and I'd like .

Holloway: Let me just clarify. HBCUs are historically .

Burnim: Historically black.

Holloway: .colleges and universities.

Burnim: .colleges and universities. And when I say ethnically diverse I want people to understand that 73 to 74 percent of the enrollment at ECSU is African-American. But 23 to 24 percent is white. And we have two percent students from other ethnic backgrounds, principally foreign countries. And so that gives us a mix of students that we believe really enriches the educational experience. And so while historically the institution was founded for the preparation of African-Americans, it serves a broader constituency these days and provides, we think, a very rich educational opportunity. But we focus in doing that in northeastern North Carolina. That's were we are located, the needs are really tremendous there and we are trying to serve those needs effectively.

Holloway: Chancellor Woodward, you're in the largest metropolitan area in North Carolina-Charlotte. But I know that your institution happens to have the largest black enrollment, is that correct, in the UNC institutions.

Woodward: Largest percentage of students, uh huh, right.

Holloway: How does this whole diversity issue affect you, and I guess with that largest percentage, that you are certainly interested in this subject.

Woodward: Well, we're in the business of creating opportunities for young people from throughout North Carolina. And that certainly includes the African-American population. Our campus was never a segregated campus. We came along after the civil rights legislation in our country. And I think that does make it easier for campuses such as UNC-Charlotte to attract and properly serve African-American students. Of the total student population at UNC-Charlotte about 16 or 17 percent is African-American. And that figure has been, as you say, has been the largest of the what might be called historically white campuses within the university system for some time now.

Holloway: You talked about the economic impact and UNC-Charlotte is in our largest area which is really a financial capital in this area. But what might funding your institutions and the State largely funding the public higher education institutions, what will it mean to the local communities in Charlotte and Elizabeth City and really the other communities around any of our UNC institutions around the state. What is it going to mean to them?

Burnim: Jay, I'd like to begin addressing that. I think that as you look at the University of North Carolina and its constituent institutions in many of our communities we are the largest economic engine in those areas. In Elizabeth City we are one of the largest employers. Our payroll is one of the largest. We have a number of people who work and interact with the university. And so just in terms of the economic growth and economic viability of northeastern North Carolina, ECSU is really a major player in that. And so, in addition to providing for the higher education needs, it has a tremendous economic impact through the people that it hires and through what the institution spends and the employees spend in the area. So economically speaking it is vitally important.

Holloway: In a community like Charlotte, which is really almost the opposite of that, how will that make a difference in Charlotte?

Woodward: Well, you shouldn't invest in UNC-Charlotte because of the economic impact on Charlotte. You should invest in us so that we can create opportunity for young people from throughout North Carolina. And we're currently at about 17 thousand students and the estimate is that we should grow to 24 thousand over the next ten years in order to help accommodate this large growth that we are already facing. So the investment in us should be so that we can indeed accommodate additional students from throughout North Carolina. So certainly in our communities we play different roles but when you get to the core purpose of our universities, it is to create opportunities for young people.

Burnim: Let me just add a word to that. As we think about the development of the state of North Carolina, one of the most important resources that we have is our people. And the University of North Carolina, with the reputation that it enjoys nationally and internationally, I think has helped to do that by investing in human resources. And so that really is the mission of the University of North Carolina and all of its constituent institutions, to provide for the development of individuals and to help them realize their full potential. To the extent that the University does this, the state of North Carolina is made better off and we see economic growth and a better way of life for all our people.

Woodward: Jay, I think Mickey is absolutely correct. Let me give you another perspective on that. Within our state about 18% of the population has a baccalaureate degree or higher. Nationally that figure is 21%. To close that gap we would need an additional 200 thousand people with baccalaureate degrees or higher. What we've got to do is work at closing that gap. And indeed that should be done at a time when we're confronted with this large influx of students. And our campuses now are, quite frankly, not well positioned to accommodate the demand because of the capital funding needs that have been well communicated across the state and that we expect will be a major topic of discussion in the upcoming session of the General Assembly.

Holloway: I want to talk about that. And when you all mentioned that, I'm reminded. I think what the North Carolina constitution says that the State will provide accessible and affordable public higher education. So what we're talking about is really trying to meet that goal and that constitutional mandate. Let's talk about your capital needs right now. Your other peer chancellors seem to have a consistent need in the area of science facilities. Is that the same need at your institutions, Chancellor Burnim first?

Burnim: At Elizabeth City State University we have some needs in the area of science facilities but principally our need has to do with the dealing with repairs and renovations that are needed. For many years the State of North Carolina simply didn't provide the funding that was needed to maintain the facilities that were erected and that were being used. And so what we find now from the study that was done by Eva Klein & Associates is that a major on our campus in particular, is money to do things like rewire buildings, do major changes and updates and modernization for infrastructure: plumbing systems and the like. And so if we are to be able to attract students we have to have, first, first-rate degree programs. And we believe we have those. But in addition, facilities are very important. Classroom space and also student life space. And that's where the priority would be at Elizabeth City State University. We need places for students to live in dormitories. The average age of our dormitories is about 40 years, which means that it's near the end of their useful lives. And so we would need to go in and do some major renovations to make those more attractive, to help us to attract the students who we will need to serve in order to carry our share of dealing with the additional students that we're expecting.

Holloway: Chancellor Woodward, you have the benefit, I guess, of having one of the newer campuses, but what are your capital needs?

Woodward: Well, I was thinking, we didn't exist 40 years ago. Our problems are not related to repair and renovation. It's simply is having enough academic space to accommodate the students that we really should bring into UNC-Charlotte. So our request and what is included in the Eva Kline study in the package that's before the General Assembly is for funds to build additional academic space. You mentioned science and technology laboratories. Certainly that's important at UNC-Charlotte but we simply need classroom space and faculty office space. And if we can't see that space being built over the next several years what we do and what we have already begun to do is simply delay admitting students into UNC-Charlotte. And that worries me a great deal because when we fail to admit, say five or six hundred students that we think could succeed, we are perhaps not fulfilling our obligation as a public university to the people of North Carolina.

Holloway: We have just about five minutes left. Let me move back to the issue of the HBCUs and funding. About a couple of years ago, I think the Legislative Black Caucus - and you all have mentioned Eva Klein at some point - I think she did a study as well, and what we opened the program about was that the HBCUs needed funding, disproportionate funding, because it had been under funded for so long. And in that study she actually found out that the traditionally white institutions were under funded. So they got $21 million, I think, last year and some HBCUs got $21 [million] this year. You talked about that earlier but is that still an issue now?

Burnim: Well, I think it's an issue to the extent that our institutions are not in the best position to effectively serve their missions. I don't think any person who has studied history or who has been around for awhile would question that there have been some problems in our past that has led to discrimination that has caused, in many cases, the kind of funding that went to the HBCUs to be less than what it should have been. That has had some impact. But the relevant question in my mind now is, are our institutions funded at a level where they can effectively serve their missions and the students that come to them? And I think the approach that Eva Klein & Associates took in trying to deal with that issue is one that is helpful. The figure that her study reported as needs for Elizabeth City State University includes the money that would be needed to renovate buildings and facilities to bring them all up to a first quality level. And that's what we would need and be seeking today. So if the funding for our capital facilities, as requested by the Board of Governors, is actually done I think that will position the HBCUs and all of the institutions to do the job that's needed for the people of North Carolina.

Holloway: Chancellor Woodward, was UNC-Charlotte cited in one of those institutions that received part of that $21 million?

Woodward: Yeah, we were one that, in the comparative study that was done, a comparison with, again, peer institutions, indicated that we were under funded and part of that $21 million came to us. I think - Let me comment on the historically black campuses. I think this state simply must deal with any remnants of the past discrimination that was suffered within this state. And I think that studies like Eva Klein's study point to those remnants, that is, the repair and renovation problem at Mickey's campus and at others. And I certainly believe that the State recognizes that problem now and is attempting to deal with it.

Holloway: Gentlemen, we've run completely out of time. I want to thank both of you for appearing today and talking more about this important issue of funding public higher education. Chancellor Burnim and Chancellor Woodward from Elizabeth City State University and UNC-Charlotte, respectively. Thank you both for being with us.

Woodward: Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

Holloway: I want to thank you for watching as well. And hopefully you've been brought more up-to-date on the need for funding our public higher education institutions in our state. If you'd like more information about these institutions or the entire funding issue, feel free to visit our web site. The information is on your screen; you can contact us directly. Call us or visit our web site. And you can also visit us there at the web site that at link.unctv.org for more detailed information. Also we'd like to remind you to join us again every Friday night at 11 o'clock for Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway. You have a blessed evening and a good night. Thank you.

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