|
Episode #1630
Attack on America: A New Perspective
Holloway: Jay
Holloway, Host
Bagby: Ihsan A. Bagby, Ph.D., Shaw University
Hall: Jarvis A. Hall, Ph.D., North Carolina Central University
Holloway: The
scenes from the Tuesday, September 11th attack
on New York's World Trade Center and the Pentagon in Washington,
DC are indelibly marked in our minds and perhaps now it's
time for some frank discussion. Thoughts from another perspective,
next on Black Issues Forum. Stay tuned.
[THEME
MUSIC]
Announcer: This
program was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV from
viewers like you. Thank you.
[THEME
MUSIC]
Holloway: There
has been inexhaustible discussion around the surprise attack
on America which took place on September 11, 2001, the tragedy,
the loss, the terror. But how many have asked the question
why? We're asking that question tonight and to help educate
us I'd like to welcome two experts in politics and international
relations. First, Dr. Ihsan A. Bagby, Chairman and Associate
Professor in the Department of Political Science and International
Studies at Shaw University; and Dr. Jarvis Hall, Chairman
and Professor in the Department of Political Science at North
Carolina Central University. Gentlemen, thank you both for
joining us.
There
has been so much discussion on this issue so far and many
that we have talked to say that the African-American perspective
has been somewhat invisible. And for that reason, we'd like
to get your perspective from your institutions, hear what
they're saying, your students are saying and what you've seen
and your opinions about first of all, why this has happened.
Let's start with you, Dr. Bagby, first at Shaw University,
what's going on? What are the students saying? Why do they
think this has happened?
Bagby: Well,
this is a very emotional period in American history for obvious
reasons and our students are just like all other Americans,
very emotional about this. Forget about talking in class about
the usual issues, no, we have to talk about these issues and
all assemblies have focused on this issue. So this is a very
emotional time, very confusing time. Why did it happen? That
is of course one of the first questions. And it is a complicated
question. I think it is good that you ask this question because
we do have to look past the emotional, just retaliating. We
have to ask ourselves what are the roots of this? I'm a child
of the '60s. I grew up in Cleveland, Ohio. I lived through
two riots. And even though we say, "Yes, we have to punish
the rioters. Those who stole, those who killed have to come
to justice." But then we have to ask the question why?
Where does this anger come from?
Holloway: Well,
I'm going to come back and ask you about those roots of that.
And Dr. Hall, let me ask you, what are the students saying
over at Central about why that happened and what's your initial
opinion?
Hall: Well,
things at NCCU are just about the same everywhere, that it's
a question of why it happened and a lack of understanding
as to exactly why it happened. We have some students who have
a general understanding that we have played a role in the
Middle East and perhaps it's not been on that has been correct
in the sense of harming people from that area. But you have
a number of people who have some understanding as to why it
happened but others who really don't understand all of the
complex forces that came together to produce this kind of
situation. Then of course the next question is-that is more
relevant to their lives-is what next? Exactly what will it
mean for international politics? What would it mean in terms
of domestic security and the question as to what we ought
to do in terms of responding to this. So it is very emotional,
it is very confusing and it remains to be seen as to exactly
what the fallout will be and that's the number one question
in the minds of our students.
Holloway: Well,
let's spend the next 20 minutes or so talking about that,
what next for national security, what the fallout will be,
what are the roots? What are some of your thoughts, Dr. Bagby,
on the roots of why this happened?
Bagby: Well,
of course, we don't know all of the facts at this particular
time but if it is tied-and apparently it is tied to Muslim
terrorists from overseas, then what we see is a reality of
distrust, dislike and in some cases, hatred for American foreign
policy as it regards to the Middle East and the Muslim world
in general. That's why I would differ with those who say that
this is an attack on democracy or this is an attack on freedom.
This is not really an attack on our culture. None of these
groups are saying, "We want to change America."
What they want to change is American foreign policy. And the
sad reality is that many Muslims, the vast majority of Muslims
are dissatisfied with American foreign policy, you just have
the irrational, immoral few that will take that dissatisfaction
to the limit of killing innocent people, which of course no
Muslim groups accept in any type or form.
Holloway: Clarify
for us, if you will, the difference between the terminology
of Muslim, Moslem, Islam.
Bagby: Back
to the basics? Yes, is this somewhat of an educational experience
for us, isn't it? The proper pronunciation is Mus·lim. Mos·lem
is an older, British mispronunciation of the word. A Muslim
is one who follows the religion of Islam. And of course to
distinguish between the 1.3 billion Muslims of the world,
as opposed to the Nation of Islam under Minister Louis Farrakhan.
Holloway: Please
clarify that.
Bagby: Who
is basically not accepted as a part of the mainstream of the
Islamic faith. He is coming closer-and that's a different
story, a different program-but there is a distinction between
the two. I must say that Muslims of this country are very
much a part of the fabric of this country. There are probably
about 7 million Muslims in this country. There are over 1,200
mosques in this country and in North Carolina alone, in every
major middle-sized city from Wilmington, Greenville, of course
here in Raleigh, to Asheville, there are mosques everywhere,
there are Muslims everywhere. Thirty percent of all Muslims
of this country are African-Americans, are converts to Islam.
A smaller percentage are white Americans.
Holloway: Converts
from Christianity?
Bagby: From
Christianity, right.
Holloway: Dr.
Hall, do you have any other thoughts on why this happened?
Hall: I
wouldn't call myself an expert in international politics,
but when you think about the person that is being blamed right
now, who is Osama bin Laden, most people pointing to the kinds
of things that the United States was involved in surrounding
the Gulf War, the fact that you have American troops in the
holy land of Islam, in Saudi Arabia where you have Makkah
and Madinah, the two holiest places in Islam, is an affront
to the Islamic community and it's alleged that this has enraged
bin Laden and he has been able to mobilize his forces and
to convince many that they can put their own lives on the
line in order to rid the Holy Lands of the US presence there.
That seems to be behind it, you know, but of course, does
that justify what happened? I think that most of us would
say no, obviously. But that seems to be behind it and of course
in the Islamic world itself there is a general dissatisfaction
with the role that the United States has played in the Israeli/Palestinian
conflict. It appears that even though we attempt to have a
balanced approach there that it seems to lean toward the state
of Israel. So that has been sort of a general backdrop in
all of this, I believe.
Bagby: If
I might add.?
Holloway: Please.
Bagby: Also,
there's the sanctions against Iraq that has led to the shortage
of medicine and food. Of course, Muslims all over the world
want to see Saddam Hussein gotten rid of, but the reality
is that the Iraqi people are being hurt in this. So just like
we see these images of suffering people, the Muslim world
has been inundated with images for the last five to seven
years of Palestinian kids dying, Palestinian women suffering,
Iraqi children and women suffering. So this has built up an
anger amongst the Muslim people, and also just to add one
other point about the troops being there, there is a perception
that America is actually supporting undemocratic, very corrupt
regimes throughout the Arab world and that they are not allowing
democracy to flourish in many of these countries.
Holloway: Well,
that's an interesting point. I want to ask, we can easily
say terrorist-and you challenge the term "attack,"
but when we're trying to get coalitions built across over
in the Middle East, there has to be a clarity on definition
as the difference between attacking in our land and affecting
innocent people, versus freedom fighters against foreign occupation
in their land. What is a terrorist, a freedom fighter, foreign
occupation, versus attacking innocent people in another land?
Bagby: That's
right, within the Palestinian issue, I think it is complicated
because the Palestinians themselves are fighting occupation.
Their goal is for Israeli troops to withdraw to the borders
of the '67 war and to give back their land that they occupied
after the '67 war. So they are struggling against them. We
could say that terrorism is the killing of innocent Israeli
children, but to see children throwing stones or even people
fighting Israeli troops that are in their cities, you should
not call that terrorism. That's resistance if you will. Terrorism
is the killing of innocent people for political means and
as you said in Kashmir, other places, you have civil wars
going on or resistance and we should not lump that together.
We should not spread the definition of terrorist to include
other groups besides this particular group actually, this
particular group who has declared war on America, that has
decided that it is permissible to kill innocent American people.
Holloway: Well,
let's talk about the reaction and the retaliation and what
next, but let's focus it first, if we could, here in North
Carolina. How are the Muslims being affected here in North
Carolina and what have been your observations on your campuses?
Hall: At
North Carolina Central there is a concern about what would
happen within our borders and what are we willing to give
up in terms of our civil liberties in response to this. We
are a nation that is supposedly open. It's a democratic nation.
We look at our constitution that has all kinds of freedoms
that we cherish and that we attempt to nurture. But when I
talk to students and when I talk to some people on the streets,
in barber shops and whatever, they say they are willing to
give up freedom of movement. Also in a disturbing way, you
hear them talk about some form of racial or cultural profiling
that they are willing to support in response to this.
Holloway: African-Americans
are saying this?
Hall: African-Americans
are saying this, absolutely.
Holloway: Now
that's a serious issue because we as African-Americans have
been facing this profiling issue and you mean to tell me that.
Hall: And
are uniquely qualified to know when it's there, you know.
But this is, as we mentioned early on, this is a confusing
time. This is a time that it has shaken our belief in our
system, in our openness, and the kinds of things that we normally
take for granted and it's created a situation where there
are many of us who are not thinking as clearly as perhaps
we should and we're not clear about the total implications
of what could happen. We have to be very careful about what
we do allow in terms of internal security. We don't want to
give the national security state a blank check in terms of
what they're able to do, not only within our own borders but
also internationally.
Holloway: Dr.
Bagby, you have a very unique perspective at Shaw because
you're one of the few institutions that has a very strong
international program and presence there as well as personally
having a Muslim background.
Bagby: That's
right, and of course this is an important aspect of this whole
issue that needs to be addressed and if I might come back
to the African-American experience and what it teaches. For
so long, African-Americans were cut out of America, were disenfranchised.
So to hear African-Americans say, "We should kick the
foreigners out and we should let them have no part of this
country" makes no sense because that's exactly where
we were and I can remember the old George Jefferson show in
which he was talking to one of the white characters and the
white character was talking about a foreigner and you know,
"He doesn't belong here." And Jefferson said, "Well,
just a little while ago white people didn't accept us."
He says, "Yeah, but you're accepted now, you're okay.
These people are new." And African-American people should
be out front saying that the people of another religion, Islam,
people from other countries and nationalities are welcome
here because that is what this country is based on. And our
survival in a sense as African-American people really depends
on that openness to others.
Holloway: What
about what Dr. Hall said about African-Americans accepting
this profiling? If I think I understood you correctly?
Bagby: The
same point, how in the world can an African-American accept
the fact that people will be stopped, detained for what they
look like? Profiling has to go well beyond that.
Hall: And
I think that is the challenge because I think that what happens
in a situation like that is you encounter a slippery slope.
If you start profiling one group then pretty soon you feel
as if you're justified to profile another group and you're
justified to profile another group and as the old saying says
that when they profiled me there was nobody there to protest
against it. So it creates a slippery slope. It's wrong on
the face of it. And I think the African-Americans and others
within the community of folk who cherish the importance of
civil liberties have to be up front and have to be aggressive
in making sure that this does not happen.
Bagby: Another
aspect, if I may bring it in, is for instance some of the
new rules for wiretapping, accessing people's emails and we
went through the _______ pro of the '60s where the federal
government was dead set to disrupt the civil rights movement
and used all kind of tactics, illegal, immoral tactics and
we don't want to go back. We don't want to give that green
light to the police, the FBI to do what you think is right.
They're actually asking for a completely blank check with
no judicial oversight in getting tapping phones. We don't
need to go back to that. We've suffered from that and we don't
need to go back to that era.
Holloway: How
do we combat this then, this that has happened? We've got
similar views but yet different views on how we as African-Americans
are dealing with this. But how do we deal with this complicated
issue? And you're aware of people in the Muslim community-and
we've heard all around the country-that are not only being
profiled but are being physically threatened in their mosque
and different things and on college campuses around the state.
Bagby: Well,
what I tell my students is that this is a challenge to the
American people in general to become aware of foreign policy.
In this global, one world, in this globalization that we are
experiencing, America is impacted by what goes on overseas.
And so just as we are concerned with domestic issues, we now
have to be very aware of global issues, foreign policies and
how they affect us. African-Americans in particular have been
very interested in the domestic agenda but we need to spread
our interested to include the foreign policy issues. And the
other point is that I think North Carolinians and African-Americans
in particular need to build bridges with the Muslim community,
with the world of Islam but also in particular with the Muslim
community. We don't need a group of us that are singled out,
especially for abuse and African-Americans because Islam is
part of the heritage of African-Americans, because so many
African-Americans are Muslims, the African-American church
and politicians should really lead the way, I think, in trying
to build better relations with the Muslim community.
Holloway: At
NCCU, how are the relations between African-American students
and foreign students, including Islamic students?
Hall: I
think they're pretty good. I think our students have done
a pretty good job in terms of understanding that this is a
relatively small and isolated group within the Muslim community
and I think they know that it's not anything that ought to
be attributed to Islam itself. So we-in fact, I think what
you have seen is some outreach on the part of the general
student body to the Islamic community. I was at a middle school
not so long ago and the students there were very interested
or very attuned to the fact that this was not an Islamic issue,
per se, that this was not the Islamic community. So if the
older folk can take lessons from the younger folk in the sixth
and seventh grades then I think that we would be okay. And
if I could echo something that was just said too, is the fact
that it's important for us to understand that security domestically
is now clearly a direct function of security in the global
community and the linkage has to be made there and so hopefully
as a result of this we will see more concern with our international
and foreign policy and so we won't have the kind of feeling
that a lot of people have that a lot of the stuff is way over
there, it's out of sight and it's out of mind. It very much
is a part of our lives and it has direct impact on our lives
and so hopefully that would be something positive that will
come out of this, is more concern with those issues.
Holloway: Well,
we know knowledge is power but even if you have better knowledge
of international policy and foreign policy of the United States,
we still have domestic security problems in the United States
and here in North Carolina. How do you advise people to deal
with that on your campuses? Are you talking to students and
are community people welcome to come in and learn and how
can people learn more about this tough dichotomy?
Bagby: Well,
it's time to be patient for one and to let the events kind
of sift their way through the process. We have tightened security
at Shaw. We were very concerned about that. I think there
is going to be an adjustment period. But the main thing is
for the healing to take place. That's the main thing. Our
country is great because we are so open, because it is based
on the people and the people are very diverse. And we are
still in the process of embracing that diversity. Just recently
we had been through the process and are still going through
the process of accepting the diversity of African-American
people and we have to continue that diversity, Hispanic people,
Muslim people. It is a challenge and if America is to really
land on its feet, then it will emphasize that openness and
that acceptance of all people. Because that is what will give
us strength. We have to let Muslims suffer-the American Muslims-suffer
along and grieve along with Americans in this process as opposed
to singling them out, because then it makes their suffering
problematic. But we have to suffer together and we have to
find solutions together.
Holloway: We
only have just a few minutes left here and I want to give
you all the opportunity to make some closing remarks in terms
of how you would advise people because to deal with this thing
you said it's going to take patience. But we're going to be
a long time dealing with this issue. What are we willing to
sacrifice now in this time of potential war times.
Hall: I
think there are going to be some changes in terms of domestic
security. We have to make sure that proper limits are placed
upon what the national security state would be allowed to
do. I think that there has to be some sort of international
response but it has to be an appropriate response. It has
to be one that is supported by evidence to show exactly who
played a role in these crimes. Here in North Carolina we have
to learn to talk to each other a little better. We have to
look at each other with a lack of suspicion. We have to learn
about each other and we've been talking about some sort of
reconciliation, racially and culturally, for a long time.
But I think right now our very survival as a country is dependent
upon it because of course we can't continue to exist as a
divided people. We are all Americans. We have the glory of
diversity and this is something that we ought to use to our
advantage and hopefully this will come out of this.
Holloway: Are
we dealing with that effectively, do you think, in North Carolina?
Hall: I
think we have some work to do. We have to move beyond talk.
We do have a lot of talking to do, you know because it begins
with talk. But I think there has to be some other programmatic
kinds of things in order to move it beyond the mere stage
of rhetoric.
Holloway: Dr.
Bagby, some final quick comments, please.
Bagby: Well,
I am very happy with the response here in North Carolina and
in America in general. After the bombing in Oklahoma City,
the Oklahoma City bombing, there was little response from
the politicians and from I think the media in trying to educate
the people about this issue of Islam and Muslims. This time,
it's completely different and I think we should congratulate
ourselves but the job is still not finished.
Holloway: Thank
you very much. We certainly appreciate it. And we hope tonight's
discussion has been helpful and informative for you, our viewers.
If you'd like to contact our guests or offer comments on the
program, please visit our website at www.unctv.org, or you
can call us at 919-549-7167. For Black Issues Forum I'm Jay
Holloway. You have a blessed evening and a good night.
[THEME
MUSIC]
Announcer: This
program was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV from
viewers like you. Thank you.
|
