2001-02 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts
Episode #1701
Media Roundtable

Holloway: Jay Holloway, Host
Stone: Chuck Stone, Walter Spearman Professor of Journalism & Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Saunders: Barry Saunders, author and columnist for The News and Observer
Michaels: Cash Michaels, Editor for the Carolinian and TV Commentator

Holloway: The top issues at the forefront of African Americans' minds are economic opportunity, education, and now America's new war on terrorism. We'll talk about the issues with North Carolina journalists in our Black Media Roundtable next on Black Issues Forum. You stay tuned.

Voiceover: This program is made possible in part by contributions from UNC-TV viewers like you.

[THEME MUSIC]

Holloway: Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway. We'll be focusing on ten black literacy initiatives in our season this year, and key areas of black and white disparity including economic opportunity, education, health and others. But tonight we're here to give us a different perspective on these issues and others. On how they'll be impacted by America's new war on terrorism are three notable journalists here in our state of North Carolina.

I'd like to welcome first Chuck Stone, a Walter Spearman Professor of Journalism and Mass Communication at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and also author and former editor of three black newspapers. Next is Barry Saunders, author and columnist for The News and Observer. And last but not least, Cash Michaels, editor for the Carolinian and TV commentator. Gentlemen, thank you for joining us.

Kicking off our new season there are a lot of things going on, but really this new war on terrorism has got everyone talking. We want to talk to you all today about that issue and others. But first, let me talk with you, Mr. Stone, and find out what your general overall impression is about this.

Stone: The war on terrorism?

Holloway: Yes.

Stone: I think the war on terrorism, the attack on America, has been an attack on parts of the black community; attack on, what I call, our "double consciousness." As Americans we all owe a double loyalty, and it has been an attack on Arab-Americans, and blacks have also come under suspicion. What has really dismayed me has been the number of blacks who I've read about in The New York Times or The Washington Post who are agreeing with the people who feel that any suspects should be taken off the planes and not allowed to fly. That's a terrible thing, and we've got to declare war on that kind of local, domestic terrorism.

Holloway: Barry, we've seen that in our community quite often, and you write about those things.

Saunders: Yeah, what Chuck is talking about, I think a lot of brothers are just glad to see somebody else get a taste of racial profiling for a while.

Holloway: And Cash, that is true, but we actually had a program that had a gentlemen from Shaw University as well as NC Central, and actually the black community is split on this. Some people think we should profile people of Arab or Middle Eastern descent.

Michaels: Well, let's be clear Jay, that the attack on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon on September 11^th-and I was in New York at the time that attack occurred-was a shock to the system. It made us all feel vulnerable. And for a few brief moments we were, indeed, all brought together because the attack was indiscriminate. You're right, African Americans are indeed split on this. For one thing, we're still fighting racism in this country. And the other thing, we have to defend our country, our home. They came to our house and attacked all of us. So indeed these are issues we're still trying to sort out.

Holloway: Do any of you gentlemen see any difference between what North Carolinians, particularly African Americans, are viewing on this issue versus the national climate?

Stone: I haven't seen any polls to be able to differentiate between North Carolinians and Americans in general, at least Black Americans. There is a pervasive attitude, as Cash said, that we're sort of glad that somebody else is being blamed for it. It's unfortunate that we've succumbed to that kind of thing. Paulo Frere, a Brazilian educator, said that the oppressed take on the mentality of the oppressor. So we've taken on this mentality and we now feel that we are able to oppress somebody else or enjoy seeing them suffer instead of us.

Saunders: But the split within the black community is the evidence in the NAACP, which is our preeminent organization. Kweisi Mfume, the president, had to call onto the carpet a local NAACP leader for making disparaging comments about the attack and how it didn't affect black people.

Holloway: Right, in Durham. You criticized Curtis Gatewood, as we are talking about, in your column.

Saunders: Yeah, I did do that. Yeah, because I think this really exemplifies how much of Americans we are. Of course, we are of African descent, but we are Americans. And as Cash said so eloquently, they came to our house. And when somebody attacks. We have our internal problems, yes, but we have to deal with external forces first, then we can deal with what's going on inside of our house.

Michaels: And Jay, it's not that the African American community is itching for a fight or itching for a war, but I think this attack is clear. In order to defend ourselves we have to now wage war, not indiscriminately, we have to go after those clearly responsible in those states that sponsor terrorism. But there's no question about it, if we don't strike back none of us are safe.

Holloway: Well, let's talk about our pocketbooks right now. Economic opportunities on the forefront before this attack, and even now with a recession setting in, and African Americans are already at the bottom of the totem pole. How do you think this situation is going to affect a community that's already been negatively affected? Mr. Stone?

Stone: I think a lot depends on what kind of initiative we take as African Americans. There is a median family gap between black and white Americans, something like $16,000. I think not only economic development, but in educational achievement there is a racial gap there; blacks have 180 points lower than whites on the SAT scores and so forth. So we've got this double edged sword that we've got to cope with. I think it's up to us to initiate a program, not a program but some sort of activity that we can mobilize the black people to speak out and protest the difficult-not against the white establishment, but within ourselves. I think that you can only blame us. Black mothers, a lot of black mothers do not worry about their children's homework and stuff like that. I think you've got to galvanize the black community to a higher level of responsibility for ourselves.

Saunders: I have to tell you, I don't really think all blacks are at the bottom of the totem pole economically. Those blacks that are in intact, two-parent homes, they are doing very well economically compared to others, but it's the single-family blacks that are not doing as well.

Michaels: And truth be told, the African American community is always in a struggle mode, Jay, be it a recession or inflation whatever. When everyone else is suffering we kind of look at them and say, "Huh? We're used to this," so to speak. We've been through every kind of economy, we know how to pull out. The question is how can we do better? How can we take our tremendous buying power and really turn it inward? Instead of having that dollar, bring it back to the black community, spend it once and have it leave the community to the shopping malls or what have you. How do we pass that dollar around so the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker, so to speak, in our community gets a piece of that action and creates jobs, builds small business and builds opportunity?

Saunders: But speaking about what Cash said, we are always in a crisis mode in this sense. It's sort of like when you're sleeping on the floor you can't fall out of the bed, and that's where Black America often finds itself.

Holloway: Some would say in the white community that when you do these kinds of things inward, is it best for the overall community if you're talking about doing it within the black community. How do we respond, how do you respond to those who say it?

Stone: Oh, I think we make a contribution. If we can mobilize others to get better jobs and more jobs and reduce our unemployment, we make a contribution to the overall economy. So there's no question about if we can do what other groups have done, what the other ethic groups-the Irish, the Italians, the Jews and the Poles have done the same thing. They've had this ethnic cohesion, and look where they are today. We've got to do the same kind of thing. I call it the "law of ethnic succession." The Irish were suffering when they came here, then later elected a president, John F. Kennedy. So I think that we've got to do the same thing to mobilize ourselves-pride, ethnic pride-and at the same time make a contribution to the overall economy and to the cultural America.

Holloway: Cash, you worked in the Raleigh community with the Martin Luther King Center with moderating a coalition building, race relations panel. What do you think about the coalitions in the American African community and others in race relations, but as we talk about building strong community? What came out of that?

Michaels: Actually, both forums were excellent. We just had one last week at New Hope Baptist Church that was co-moderated by David Crabtree of WRAL in Raleigh. That was a very special one because it was in the aftermath of the terrorist attack. Jay, there is no question that people of color, communities of color, realize the need now-especially with the latest information from the Census Bureau that shows that the Hispanic population is the fastest growing population in our state-that there's the need to build coalitions, because so many of the issues are the same. And indeed, as the Hispanic community continues to grow and build, and as the African American community becomes more sophisticated as far as politics is concerned, we need to come together to have an impact on the system in the process.

Holloway: Barry, what is your view on the relationship with the Hispanic community? Because they are becoming a large minority in this community now as it relates to these issues of coalitions and building our community stronger.

Saunders: Well, I'd like to think that there was some cohesion, but I see a lot of antipathy between the cultures, and I'd like to see that change. I know North Carolina Central University is making an effort to reach out to the Hispanic Community and in the Triangle part of the state.

Holloway: Let's move on now and talk about education. You talked earlier, Mr. Stone, about the gap, the achievement gap, and there's a lot of attention going to that.

Stone: It's very serious, it's critical. I'm going to give you a statistic you've never heard before. There is a correlation between median family income and educational achievement. The higher the median family income, the higher the test scores on the SATs.

Saunders: No.

Stone: Yes, there is. But let me tell you this. A white kid who has a median family income of $10,000 has a higher SAT score than a black kid who has a median family income of $50,000. ETS, Education Testing Service, has put this table out and it shows that. I did the correlation myself.

Michaels: Do we know why?

Stone: I really don't know why. Jensen, Arthur Jensen, the psychometrician, said that it's genetic, and there are all kinds of reasons, poor schools, inferior schools, but I don't know. I tell my kids, "According to your mother and my income-our income-you should have 2,000 on your SAT scores. According you your SAT scores we're on welfare." They did badly too, yet my son was a big success. They may not be predictive as much for black kids as they are for white kids.

Holloway: That kind of statistic feeds the old Bell-Curve Theory.

Stone: Yes, that's right it does. And I think there are some people who implicitly really believe, a lot of White Americans believe that blacks are intellectually inferior. It's a subliminal thing; they were raised this way, this is the basis for which we have the disparity in our society, we have segregation, prejudice and so forth. That still exists in this country.

Saunders: But even more devastating, I think some blacks feel that blacks are intellectually inferior and that plays into it and that becomes self-fulfilling.

Holloway: Well, how do we come, in a state situation where times are turning down now, we have these disparities in all these different areas, how do you see this turning around?

Michaels: Well Jay, first of all, and we've heard this over and over again to the point where it's become a cliché, it has to start in the home. Clearly there is a tension between the African American community and the school system. Our children have needs, quite frankly, that a lot of young educators out there today simply don't know how to meet. We didn't have this problem during the days of segregation where African American instructors and teachers knew how to reach children, knew how to inspire them and move them on, had a closer relationship between the home and the school. The school was right there in your community, so therefore the teacher, the principal knew the parents and everyone worked together to bring Johnny or Janie up. We need to reestablish that. However, I would suggest to you that the charter school movement is something that is very, very strong in the African American community because a lot black parents want to take back their children's education. They want to redirect it and they want to show, indeed, that in competing with the public school system, even though charter schools technically are public schools, that they can do a better job of making sure their child is educated.

Holloway: This issue continues to be a problem. It's been from the '54 on up until now, education and the disparities and funding, and we have a new budget in the state of North Carolina now. Barry, how do you see this changing from your point of view?

Saunders: This new budget, it's about time we got it. It's like three or four months past due. I really don't think they put a whole lot into education in that and I was very disappointed that they did not do more for education.

Holloway: Is money going to make a difference in closing this gap? If you said income doesn't make, throwing more money at it in the schools.

Stone: No, I think you've got to use that money and direct it into economic strategies that will encourage the black community to take more initiative. One thing is we have to get more black single parents, like black mothers, to go to the schools and be responsible for their children. "What are you doing," their homework and so forth. And we have any number of studies, for example the Asian kids have the highest SAT scores, the highest IQs. Why? Because in the Asian community the kids-every night-do their homework. The mother, the father sits down at the table and the parents are involved. We've got to get the parents involved, let them know that they are responsible as much as the teacher for their education. My mother used to always come to the school to see my teachers. And incidentally, Cash, I grew up in a community where we had all white teachers, up in Hartford, Connecticut. I didn't have any black teachers. So we had to achieve. But they were very good, they inspired us and we did succeed.

Holloway: So, Mr. Stone, maybe the family income or the race, but actually parental involvement?

Stone: Parental involvement.

Holloway: Maybe that's the variable that should be measured.

Stone: There are so many studies. The Rick Heber study at the University of Michigan, the Abcedarian Study at the Frank Porter Graham Center; they've done these kinds of studies that show the involvement of the parents in raising their kids does raise their intelligence level, their test scores, and they do achieve.

Michaels: But there must also be a strong partnership, I'm sure you would agree, with the schools.

Stone: Oh, absolutely.

Michaels: Because if. A lot of black families that I've covered doing the stories over the years about education in the African American community, they say when they go to the schools to see about their child they're made to feel like criminals. They're made to feel like outsiders, that they really have no business being there. And that is built up over a number of years.

Saunders: Yeah, but I think that any parent who isn't intimately aquatinted with his kid's teachers ought to be charged with child neglect. It should be a crime.

Michaels: And you'll write about it won't you?

Holloway: Well, let's talk about improving the parenting, because we talked about the role of the single parent and the dual parent. But how do we improve overall if the family is where it starts? How do we improve parenting and family values, so to speak? Who is responsible?

Saunders: Chuck was saying that we need to get single mothers more involved in their kids' education, I think we need fewer single mothers. I think that's one place to start; have more two-parent families.

Stone: That's a hard one to attack, though, because the brothers are not going to change their mentality. They don't support the family thing. They make the babies, but they don't become parents to the babies. And we've got to somehow instill in them that they are an alien to our community and we ought to isolate them and the brothers that do that. If you don't take care of that child, you don't belong in that community.

Michaels: But to be fair, though, I don't know of any single mothers that don't covet their children-really love and cherish their children and push them. They're facing a number of challenges that, quite frankly, the black family has not faced before. And also, too, there is a re-definition of what family is today. It just doesn't affect our community, but America in total. And that's part of the problem. What is family, who is family and what is the role of family in terms of the life of the child? That's something we're still trying to ferret out.

Holloway: We covered the African American Male Summit, and there was a lot of responsibility put on the fathers. Let's talk about that as black males here on this panel. What is, with this new definition of family, how are the black males... You said earlier that many are not stepping up to the table for responsibility, but there are some that are.

Michaels: Many

Saunders: Yeah, many.

Halloway: What would you gentlemen say briefly about that before we move?

Stone: Cash says many, but I don't think the many is sufficient to change the pattern of single parenthood in our community. For example, 65% of black babies are still born to single mothers. Right there, how do you stop that? You don't stop it, you take and harness that and find ways to get them to become more involved with their children and parenting. Show them how to parent.

Michaels: And yet, Professor Stone, I saw a statistic I think just last year that suggests that many children who are without fathers in our community today is the result of, actually, divorces. We have a very high divorce rate in our community, which means that we did have two-parent households, but for some strange reason they are disintegrating. That's something we need to pay attention to.

Saunders: You also have to look at the draconian drug laws we have in this country where some guy who is selling two joints might end up in prison for five years, or with a criminal record that is going to prevent him from getting a good job, and therefore becoming a good husband.

Holloway: Where and who are the leaders in the black community that are charting the course for our community in these issues? Spiritual, grass roots, political and so forth.

Saunders: When you talk about single fathers, it looks like Jesse Jackson is the preeminent role model.

Michaels: Why do you have to start?

Stone: If he doesn't stop preaching I'm going to meddle him! I think that the leaders in the black community who can galvanize, who are important factors in our achievement and respect in galvanizing would be the athletes. They are very popular-the entertainers. People like Bill Cosby. Bill Cosby was on campus and he was tremendous. Bill Cosby and Michael Jordan. If we could harness all their concerns and get them involved.because they are very popular and people listen to them. I think Bill does a good job. He's a model father. He and Camille, his wife, they've given contributions to higher education.

Holloway: Speaking of athletes, Michael Jordan is coming back this season and he is an alumnus of your institution. Is it time for him now to step outside of that mold and take some leadership?

Stone: It's always been time, as Barry points out. Barry has been really tough on Michael.

Saunders: As Chuck said Michael is very popular, but I think most of his popularity derives from the fact that he doesn't say anything except, "I shoot the jump shot," that's about it.

Stone: Yeah. He doesn't make any controversial statements.

Saunders: And that's why he's so popular.]

Michaels: Jay, you asked about leaders. The folks I've been most impressed with in the African American community when it comes to leadership is us. The person who doesn't make headlines, the person who doesn't have a press conference, but is in our community. They are the backbone of our community, they're working hard, they care about the children, they speak about the issues, they show up at the school board issues, they show up at the city council meetings, and they keep their community together. We are our best leaders.

Stone: He said us, you're right. You three-this show, your articles in the Carolinian, your column-this is what the black community needs more of. And I think you are doing a tremendous job in synthesizing the black community of their responsibilities.

Saunders: I hate to disagree with Professor Stone, which is something I've never done, but I don't think the athletes should be our role models. When I was growing up my main role model was a guy who worked on the garbage truck because I saw the way he raised his family and loved his family. That was my role model. I didn't want to grow up to be a garbage truck driver or anything, but I really admired this guy.

Stone: Didn't you admire athlete achievement though? I was a big Joe DeMaggio fan as a kid. There were no black.and when Jackie Robinson got in then I became a Jackie Robinson fan. But think of the tremendous contributions they've made, some of the black athletes. They really have.

Holloway: Let me switch to our political leadership. Dan Blue has said he's going to run for Senate for this state here. Right now the only African American, I believe, that has made that announcement. What is that going to mean for the African Americans for the state of North Carolina, and does he have a chance?

Michaels: Dan is given a good chance in the primary, because he is the former Speaker of the State House-two-term former speaker. It is felt that in the primary he can really galvanize the African American community, get the vote out and really have that leap. Now mind you, Secretary of State, Elaine Marshall, she's also energizing the moderate and the female base in the Democratic Party. So that's going to be a very, very interesting contest there.

Stone: Yeah, that is.

Saunders: I believe he can win.

Stone: He can win in the primaries, definitely.

Saunders: Have there been any poles on this to show where he stands in the poles?

Michaels: Not that I've seen, no.

Holloway: Let's talk in the last few minutes about another issue that's important, because if our health and lifestyles aren't good then we won't be here to deal with a lot of these issues. African Americans also have great disparities, between blacks and whites, in a lot of chronic illnesses in our state. How do we deal with that?

Stone: It's education. For example, black males-now listen to this-black males have the highest death rate in the world for prostate cancer. Not the infection, but the death rate. They don't go to the doctor, they don't get treatments, and they discover too late.

Saunders: Specifically those here in North Carolina.

Stone: It's true for them, it's also that disparity in prostate cancer. And I think smoking, we've just got to do more about the dangers of smoking. The lung cancer affects black women as well as black men. We've got to get more education and say, "This is what happens to you when you do this kind of thing and when you don't think the kind of things you should. Go to the doctor, get your annual." You know why I'm here? Because my wife is the one that made me go to the doctor every year. I had prostate cancer and I survived it.

Holloway: And you're a living example to show that you can overcome that if you get it detected early enough.

Stone: If it's detected early and so forth. And it was due to her insistence that I go to get my health check-up.

Saunders: And a lot of guys just don't go to the doctor. I don't know what we have to do to persuade them. If they hear something going wrong in their car engine they are at the mechanic automatically. I don't know what we have to do, get a hot bar or a topless receptionist at the doctor's office to get men to go. But something has to be done to encourage that.

Michaels: Jay, as you know, I'm a diabetic. It was a black woman that encouraged me to the doctor when I was falling apart and it's a good thing she did, otherwise I wouldn't be here with you.

Holloway: You didn't know you were diabetic at the time?

Michaels: I did not know I was a diabetic at the time. And indeed it's lifestyle, Jay. Indeed, it's the kind of food we traditionally eat, the kind of lives we traditionally lead. We have to do better. We have to realize that this is all that God has given us and we have to take care of it and plan to be here tomorrow.

Holloway: Dr. McBride, former State Health Director, actually stated at the General Assembly one time at a meeting that it's not genetic. That technically, scientifically there is no difference, but it's definitely the lifestyle choices that we make, is why we have these disparities.

Michaels: Smoking. We have a disproportionate number of black males who smoke, for example. The cigarette industry knows that and they target their advertising to the black community, black newspapers and the black media.

Holloway: Speaking about the media in the last couple of minutes, let's talk about our media consumption habits. African Americans have distinctly different media consumption habits than those.

Michaels: Watch more television than anybody else.

Saunders: You commended this program, the Carolinian, News and Observer and our columns, but how may in our community are actually reading these columns and watching shows like this to educate them?

Stone: Not enough are doing it. Maulana Karenga once said, "Negros buy more records than books and are dancing away their lives." And that's true. There is a disproportionate number of blacks who watch television. 30% more blacks watch television, more than whites. And there are televisions are on the air all day long. I'm not saying they should wean themselves away from it, but the point is they should get their kids to read more books and get more involved in reading the newspapers, read your column, read your column, watching this show. If you're going to watch television, watch this show. Watch shows that are relevant to the black experience.

Michaels: We have to stop watching life, we have start making life. Making life happen.

Stone: That's good. That's very good.

Holloway: Barry?

Saunders: Yeah, well, I've been criticizing Kweisi Mfume of the NAACP because he's been attacking the networks because their programming sucks. I'm glad it sucks. He didn't say anything that discourages people from watching television.

Stone: While he's hustling to get on the air, too. Getting his show on.

Saunders: That's right. He's trying to get his own show while he's attacking the network. He should be thanking NBC and CBS and ABC for putting on these crappy shows.

[OVERLAPPING]

Saunders: They'll get nobody to watch it. Then maybe they'll go to the library and get a book instead.

Holloway: But still we're watching overwhelmingly the WB and UPN.

Michaels: You know Jay, life is tough for a lot of people and they need some relief. And unfortunately, that kind of mindless entertainment is like a drug-it's a cathartic drug for a lot of folks. And when given the choice of doing something constructive and just wasting away, a lot of us waste time and waste away in front of these TV shows. The music videos, we can't leave them out as well.

Saunders: And also, we can't criticize any network without criticizing BET-Black Entertainment Television-which is one of the worst contributors.

Stone: You and Boondocks. You're really tough on them.

Holloway: Well, I'll tell you, time has moved quickly and we're completely out. I want to thank you gentlemen so much. And I also want to thank our audience. And incidentally, 9:30 p.m. Friday nights we're on now, so be sure to join us and get more programming like this.

I want to thank our mass media guests, Chuck Stone, Barry Saunders and Cash Michaels, for joining us tonight. You may not be a journalist, but we like to hear from you, hear your comments or questions. You can contact us by email at our website www.unctv.org. Or give us a call at (919) 549-7167. Join us again next Friday night, the new time is 9:30 p.m., right here on UNC-TV. Thanks for joining Black Issues Forum. I'm Jay Holloway, you have a blessed evening. Good night.