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Episode #1713
Crime and Incarceration
Holloway: Jay Holloway,
host
Smith: Rev. Michael R. Smith, Sr.
Williams: Rev. Wavy Brian Williams
Leach: Brad Leach
Holloway: Many lives
are ruined, broken and destroyed through crime and incarceration.
Some religious leaders believe the prisons in North Carolina
and the U. S. are the fastest growing mission fields. We'll
find out how some churches are responding to this crisis next
on Black Issues Forum. You stay tuned.
Voiceover: This program
was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV from viewers
like you. Thank you.
[THEME MUSIC]
Holloway: Good evening
and welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Jay Holloway.
Tonight we examine crime and incarceration, reaching, reconciling
and restoring. We'll explore how churches and communities
can effectively respond to this crisis in four areas: how
to help at-risk youth, victims of crime, persons in detention
or prison, and ex-offenders transitioning back to the community.
To help us with this discussion are the Rev. Michael R. Smith,
Sr., chairman of the office of institutional and specialized
ministries with the General Baptist State Convention of North
Carolina, and also a supervisory chaplain at the Federal Correctional
complex in Butner, North Carolina. Rev. Smith, thank you for
being with us.
Smith: Thank you.
Holloway: We also
have Brad Leach, he's an ex-offender who participated in the
church outreach program called Project Nehemiah and he says
the project was so effective he decided to become a volunteer
with the project to help others transitioning from prison
back to society. And last but not least, Rev. Wavy Brian Williams,
a coordinator who works with at-risk youth through a successful
outreach ministry called ARMY of Christ; and that stands for
Annointed Radical Motivated Youth of Christ Ministry. An associate
minister, he is also with the Springfield Memorial Baptist
Church in Stanley, North Carolina. Gentlemen, thank you all
for being with us to talk about such an important area this
evening. Rev. Smith, I want to start with you because your
organization sponsored a statewide conference recently on
this very subject, and it really caught our eye and we were
planning on doing a program on this anyway, but you have a
very unique perspective on this crisis as you call it-explain
that.
Smith: Well yes, I
think the crisis is so important for us to understand that
it's impacting our communities, Jay, it's impacting our state,
when we look at the number of African-Americans that are incarcerated
in our prisons. And this crisis deserves a quality response
from the churches of our state. And specifically, with me,
the General Baptist State Convention. We are seeking to work
with our churches to equip, train them and to inspire through
educational efforts a response that will have an effect. And
that includes those four areas: At-risk youth; it includes
the victims of crime; it includes persons who are in prison;
and those transitioning back out of prisons. This crisis is
paramount and that's what it's all about, responding.
Holloway: Brad, do
you think churches have been successful with this or they
can be, and how does it affect persons who are in prison or
at risk or ex-offenders, based on their own desire to want
help?
Leach: Well the thing
is, it is a good thing that a lot of churches are doing it
but some churches get into it and they see how much time and
effort it takes and then they get discouraged and then by
them getting discouraged it discourages the other inmates;
like "Well, if they don't have the time for me and they're
supposed to be people of God, who else is going to have the
time for me?" So yes, it is very impactive that churches
do, they have to just stay impact onto it and don't just let
one person discourage you; not everybody is going to be just
that shining little apple. You're going to have to take the
good with the bad.
Holloway: We're talking
about not only affecting those coming out and those that are
in prison, but I know you told me that you're concerned about
prevention, and we're talking about preventing those who are
at risk and what is that and how do you do it?
Williams: Number one,
we need to provide opportunities for children, not to get
in trouble, not to be at risk. And that's where churches can
come in, community centers, after school programs and ministries.
And that's the key: provide them with an opportunity so that
they are not at risk, they're at a safe place where they are
growing, be it education-wise or even spiritually. You know,
we need to give them a foundation so that they won't go astray.
Holloway: Now we've
heard this term used for really decades now: at-risk. And
sometimes people say it's politically incorrect. Tell us what
at-risk youth are, are all black males, young, at-risk?
Williams: Well we tend
to think all of them are at risk, but they're not. At-risk
determines-well, we can say looking at a person's background.
If they are, let's say, disadvantaged economically, socially,
or single parents, we tend to think they are at risk. That's
not necessarily always true, as Brad stated earlier. If you're
in the wrong crowd and they're doing the wrong thing, you're
at risk. There's a broad spectrum of what is considered at-risk
now.
Holloway: Well let's
talk about that, Rev. Smith; what are some of the things churches
are doing in terms of helping these at-risk youth?
Smith: Well you normally
find in most churches a youth ministry; a youth ministry that
in some way is geared and designed to help the youth "of
the church," but with the times that we are in now and
with the crisis that's in our communities as far as the breakdown
of the barriers or the foundations of the community, we're
dealing with a whole different thing now. So ministries in
churches have to now be more strategic in reaching out into
where the problems are in the community. No longer just the
little program at church, but moving into the community, into
the at-risk areas where youth are and extending the love of
Christ out there in innovative ways, in ways that are different
from just, "Come to church." But now the church
program youth ministry going to these areas in very innovative
ways and that's the challenge.
Holloway: Brad, what
are some recommendations you'd have? You said earlier that
people get discouraged, but what would you recommend that
churches and community organizations do to really reach these
at-risk youth?
Leach: Well, the thing
is it's funny when people say at-risk, because it's like you're
saying: everybody's at-risk. People look and say-you might
be walking in the mall and a kid might have black fingernail
polish, spiked hair and a choke chain around his neck. That
doesn't mean that kid is at risk; that kid could be actually
a glimmer in his parents eyes and doing A-B honor role at
school. At-risk, you could be anywhere, any situation. To
help a kid cope and stay out of that little at-risk thing,
you just got to let them know what's out there in the world.
Don't shelter them, don't say well, if you do this, buy this,
buy that-you've got to let them know what's out there in that
world and let them be able to make good decisions. And it's
not just bad decisions are going to come, but they have to
learn how to make good decisions. That's the only way I can
see for youth to make it on out there.
Williams: I have to
say, Jay, that children who don't have a sense of being loved,
who are seeking attention, those are children and youth who
are truly at-risk, because they're prone to fall to any negative
influence that attracts them, be it drugs, be it a gang, be
it alcohol, sex. Those are vices. And so if I'm at home and
let's say I'm a kid and Mom's not paying me much attention,
yet my friends are and the things they are doing are bad,
yet I'm getting attention, then I'm a risk. You know what
I'm saying?
Holloway: Let's talk
about, the assumption may be-that we talk about what the churches
and community can do, is that we're only talking about the
black church and the black community. But the truth is that
the general community, some white churches and mixed churches
are doing some things. Brad, you attend a mixed church, right?
Leach: Yes.
Holloway: Have you
found that that church is sensitive to this crisis that we
have? Our church is like that.
Leach: Pretty much.
The church that I go to, I go to St. Mark's United Methodist;
and what they do, they're like, "Brad, we want you to
get involved with the youth." And I'm like, "Why?"
And they're like, "Because you know what's out there."
I can sit there-it's almost like, if I've never done anything
at all and you're a youth and you're in trouble, I can't come
to you and say, "Well, I understand where you're coming
from," because that's what a lot of people do. Older
adults say, "Yeah, I know where you're coming from."
You don't. You don't know the stress that they're going through,
you don't know the pressure that a young youth is going through,
pretty much I'm still around that age. I'm not an adult figure,
so they look at me totally different. And I can pretty much
go down to that level. I'm not saying kids are like this level
over here, but you actually have to break down to that level,
because when you get an adult, you go to a different level.
I could actually go to that level and actually come to some
similarities, and like, "Look, you could do it this way;
I understand you're going through these problems." I
can pretty much cope and understand where they're coming from.
Holloway: So Rev. Williams,
if you have people like Brad in the church that can be an
active participant in a youth ministry program, how do you
implement a strategy to make it effective?
Williams: Well, we
need to find out what are Brad's needs? And at times, with
a lot of youth it may be an emotional need, it may be social,
it may be that kid may just need clothes: to feel good, have
a sense of self-worth. And that's where we miss the mark.
We have to meet them where they are and go from there. And
I told Chaplain Smith a while back that we had three young
boys in our church years ago and we put clothes on them for
Easter. And they were dressed up and that was great. They
looked good for Easter. However, those boys as time passed
from-you know, grew older-one is in the Marines, one is in
and out of jail, and one is serving 33 to 43 years. Did we
meet their needs? No, we didn't. And I'm at fault also, I
failed also, because we missed the mark; we should have fed
them spiritually-clothed them in addition-but we need to find
out where they are and try to meet that need.
Holloway: Rev. Smith,
you've been doing this kind of thing for quite a long time
now and you've had an opportunity to talk with pastors and
ministers around the state, see people in prison ministries,
those actually in the prison. You've been in all scenarios
of this ministry in this industrial complex and governmental
thing. We've got a lot of challenges, and we've heard some
of the challenges that people tend to, as Brad said, get frustrated.
What is the black church's real responsibility to this and
how do you keep them motivated to keep that responsibility?
Smith: Well first let
me say in terms of that, Jay, the motivation, there was a
study done by C. Eric Lincoln a while back that was put in
his book, The African-American Experience, Black Church
Experience. And in that research that he did, he discovered
that one of the areas that we lacked in as African-American
churches was dealing with youth. So that was a pretty clear
signal right there in motivation. Our motivation must begin
with seeing people of great value in our communities. And
when it comes to prison ministry and as the years have been-over
the years I've been in prisons all over this country-the issue
is seeing the value of human life. And thus, that's the motivation,
to reach, to reconcile and restore that life, especially in
prisons, and those who have been affected by crime or incarceration.
I believe that the church must repent of the ignoring of this
issue and our outreach and our mission. We must repent of
that because, one, I believe the true quality of a ministry
of a church is not how big and wide it gets, but how deep
it goes; what depth does it reach in society. And if we look
at what's happening in regard to African-American response
in this state to our crisis of crime and incarceration, I
can see that our roots are not going as deep as they can go.
I can say that because I've been a chaplain in the state system
for 15 years, and now with the Federal Bureau of Prisons.
I've seen what comes into the prisons, and our African-American
response is lacking. And thus the motivation must see our
men, our women, our brothers, our sisters, as people of great
value, no matter what they've done.
Holloway: I was fortunate
enough to moderate a panel that the General Baptist State
Convention sponsored, and I'm somewhat hesitant to say this,
but one of the former state officials said that he made available
these prison doors for churches all across this state to come
in and have a statewide revival, and he was very surprised
and disappointed to hear that some of them wanted to know
how much they were going to get to come in to do this? Who
would like to respond-that was a statement made, and that's
a criticism sometimes of churches and some pastors, what reward
are they going to get financially and can these people be
tithing members and that kind of thing. I just want to throw
that out there.
Smith: Let me jump
in there. I would say that in terms of that kind of response
to that issue, that prison ministry ain't going to bring back
a lot of bucks. Maybe that's one of the issues that we have
to look at; and it's not supposed to. The issue is success
is not in dollars but it's in faithfulness to what the Lord
has called someone to do. So I think part of the problem is
the misguided understanding about success means money, instead
of success meaning changed lives. And success meaning that
a person has been restored back, reconciled back to society
who has been impacted by bad choices and has faced justice.
So I think the key for the churches in this state that are
not involved or who may be blinded by the money versus the
mission, is to see that the mission is being faithful to reaching
out.
Holloway: Well, Brad,
you're a perfect example of a product of that, and you're
active in Project Nehemiah. Tell us what that project is about
and why you got back involved in it.
Leach: Well, I got
back involved for the-
Holloway: Tell us what
it is first.
Leach: What Project
Nehemiah is, is it helps guys who are incarcerated get back
in touch with regular society, because if you ever get pinned
into a box and you stay in that box for x amount of years,
6 years, 20 years, 30 years, you're going to lose a lot of
sense of walking around on sidewalks free without having somebody
over your back, waking up whenever it's time to wake up instead
of having somebody coming over the intercom saying reveille
and wake you up at 5:00 in the morning. It's a good way to
have people learn social skills that they never had before.
Learn how to actually go-and at Project Nehemiah, they taught
people how to write checks, how to do a business interview,
things like that that are essential to making it in society.
And I've seen guys make it; I've seen guys fall. And it's
more determination in yourself; it's all you.
Holloway: Tell me,
now this program is successful, right?
Leach: Yes.
Holloway: Why do you
think this one was successful and many others that you may
have seen were not?
Leach: Because they
don't give up. And like you said, you're saying churches talking
about how much money is me going to this prison going to bring
to my church? It's not about the money, does God care about
money or does he care about that soul that you just helped
into his kingdom? That's what it's all about. And a lot of
churches see that, and a lot of churches don't. And a lot
of programs are focused on that right there. And regardless
of-because not everybody's going to make it, out of us four,
maybe one or two of us might, or maybe neither one of us.
But they keep going; they never turn away. Even if you do
mess up, let's say you get in trouble, you go to the hole.
When you come back out those people are still there to say,
"Okay, you messed up. Now what are we going to do? Are
you willing to make that change or are you willing to let
that mistake hinder you and you keep doing the same things.
Do you want to make it out there in that world or do you want
to come back in here? We're here to help you. We're not here
to take your hand and walk you down the street. If it was
that easy everybody would be getting up out."
Holloway: But Rev.
Williams, you've heard his story, you know it's not an easy
thing; but what caused you to get involved in prison ministry?
Williams: Well-and
I can share this with Chaplain Smith-I never wanted to be
involved in prison ministry, but what happened was some of
the youth that I was dealing with in youth ministry started
going to prison. So I was compelled and forced to go into
an area that I had told God, "God, that's not for me."
So that's how I ended up going. And also in the process I
met Chaplain Smith and some other great people that have just
really been encouraging. But my main thing is, let's not go
to prison at all, let's be preventive. And that's where the
church has to go beyond the four walls. It's good to have
worship service on Sunday, it's good to praise the Lord; however,
we need to go into the streets-as we say, the hedges and the
highways-go to those that are in need and try to make a difference
in their lives. And that's the main focus that I think we
should be about. Even the focus of the ARMY of Christ has
somewhat changed as a result of being involved with Chaplain
Smith.
Holloway: Chaplain
Smith, you've had so many successes and you've seen things;
let's talk about the ordinary church folk being involved in
this. What advice do you have to them-we've heard it from
the offender/ex-offender's perspective, from you as chaplains
or those sponsoring ministries. But what about the average
church folk?
Smith: The average
church person needs to know that this type of ministry is
something that takes a collaborative effort, it takes more
than one. Over the years, Jay, you'll find in the prisons
committed individuals going into prisons for many years by
themselves or in small groups. But with the explosion of the
prison industry and the prison generation, as TIME magazine
called it, we're dealing with something that takes a coalition
of churches. And what we're trying to tell the person in the
pew through the general Baptist State Convention is that we
have to come together in association now to do this. It's
going to take churches coming together to be a team to address
one of these four issues. It may be at-risk youth, it may
be in prison, it may be after care. But they've got to prayerfully
decide which one and then team up now so that the resources
won't run out in terms of the people who go in and are providing
help to people who have been impacted through crime and incarceration.
It's a team effort. That's what I'm saying, it takes everybody.
Holloway: Go right
ahead.
Williams: Chaplain
Smith, let me ask, is it safe to assume that the African-American
church has missed the mark somewhat in dealing with prison
ministry and dealing with at-risk youth?
Smith: I say this based
on my experience over the years, and that's been 20 years
now in and out of prisons. I think we have ignored the issue
and I think probably has been blindsided by what we call success
in the black church. And I believe, as I said earlier, we
must repent of that. So we have missed it. We have missed
it as a whole. But there are committed people in our state
who have been coming in for years but it's been a trickle.
When we look at the stats, and here in North Carolina, 32,000
around in our prison system, over 20,000 African-Americans
and the church that's working with Brad here is predominantly
a white congregation, right now today. And yet this is a sign
that we are not stepping up to the table, we're not present.
Holloway: Well another
point, just to underline this, I've heard people at this conference
state that not only that, in the aftercare and in the church
community, but those that come and volunteer that you see
visiting folks in prison are not the same percentage of those
in prison.
Smith: Absolutely right.
And you're right Jay, the volunteerism and the response of
white brothers and sisters in our communities has been overwhelming
in terms of when you put it next to the statistics of the
incarcerated, racially. It's a sad commentary for us.
Holloway: Believe it
or not, time is almost over. We've got a couple more minutes,
and there's one area that we didn't cover is the whole victims
area, and perhaps there's some victims out there saying that
have been a victim of crime, that they are so bitter that,
you know, "No, I'm not going to help them." Or maybe
they say, "Because I have, I want to help them."
But let's talk about the victims now and what churches and
community people can do to help victims.
Leach: What I see is,
if you are a victim of a crime, you know, most deep regrets,
I'm sorry it happened, but you can't be bitter. Not everybody-you
can't just, just because this one person did something, you
can't judge everybody by that, you still have to have a good
heart and an open mind towards it all. Because if you don't,
it's going to hinder you in the end.
Holloway: Reverend
Williams?
Williams: Well I think
healing needs to take place and that's where the church can
come in. Oftentimes we do think about those who are incarcerated,
but there's a family that's affected and maybe extended families
who are affected and victims of crime. That's where we need
to do outreach also. It's so wide and huge but we have to
start somewhere.
Holloway: Right, when
he talks about 20,000 African-Americans in the prison, you're
talking about multiply that, families and friends.
Williams: That's right,
those of the incarcerated and those of the victim. It's huge.
Smith: And that's how
we balance it with justice and mercy, meaning that when we
reach out to the victims also, who some sit it in our congregations
who are paralyzed. But this ministry is not about just a prison.
It's about the victims too. And that's why we in the GBSC
have included victims of crime as part of our prison ministry
outreach because that's the only way to be just about it and
to hopefully bring reconciliation.
Holloway: Give me a
last short statement that you would say to church ministers
right now, why they should get involved.
Smith: They need to
get involved because this is a crisis. This is a major crisis
that has major implications for the future of our communities,
our African-American communities, and if we do not, we will
face the problem. Because evil left unattended will come back
to haunt you.
Holloway: Nothing else
needs to be said. Thank you all so much for joining us on
this very important topic and hopefully tonight's program
has helped to better inform you of the issues of crime and
incarceration. Reaching, reconciling and restoring, how to
help at-risk youth, victims of crime, persons in detention
or prison and ex-offenders transitioning back to the community.
Now the choice is yours; take these suggestions back to your
church or community and put them into action and hold the
leadership accountable. Or stay on the outside looking in
and watch the crime and incarceration crisis get worse. The
decision is yours. For Black Issues Forum, I'm Jay
Holloway. Please join us every Friday night at 9:30 only on
UNC-TV. You have a blessed evening and good night.
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Voiceover: This program
is made possible in part by contributions from UNC-TV viewers
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