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Episode #1718
Reverend Al Sharpton
Holloway: Jay Holloway,
host
Sharpton: Reverend Al Sharpton
Speight: Errol Speight, Jr.
Holloway: Tonight civil rights
activist the Reverend Al Sharpton, next on Black Issues
Forum. You stay tuned.
Voiceover: This program was
made possible by contributions to UNC-TV from viewers like
you. Thank you.
[THEME MUSIC]
Holloway: Good evening and
welcome to Black Issues Forum, I’m Jay Holloway.
Tonight we welcome the Reverend Al Sharpton. For two decades
he has been recognized as an international leader against
corporate racism, economic injustice, and racism as well.
Also we have tonight with us Earl Speight, Jr. He is the Triangle
chapter president of the National Action Network, and Reverend
Sharpton is the founder of that network. Gentlemen, welcome
to Black Issues Forum
Sharpton: Thank you.
Holloway: Thank you for being
with us. Reverend Sharpton, that’s one of the reasons
that brings you here to our state of North Carolina, is opening
a new chapter of this National Action Network, is that correct?
Sharpton: That’s right.
We are very happy to be opening in the Triangle area. We feel
that Brother Speight here impressed us as one that had shared
our vision and has the energy to give leadership in the areas
that we are interested in from the National Action Network’s
point of view, and that is basically the inequities in the
criminal justice system and corporate racism, and the social
policies that have affected people that have been downtrodden
and outcast. So we are excited about the Raleigh/Durham area
and his leadership, and we’ve hit the ground running.
Holloway: One of the particular
cases that was broadcast on our network is this Terrence Garner
trial. Are you familiar with that?
Sharpton: Yes, in fact I
met with some of the representatives of those that have defended
him. Brother Speight brought it to our attention, and we intend
to give a lot of national focus and attention to this particular
case. We are convinced that it warrants some real review.
A 16-year old young man clearly the back and forward of another
key person who at one time said that they did it and then
recanted. There is enough smoke there to suggest to us that
there is some fire. And one must remember when one is convicted
of a crime that serious it must be without any doubt, and
clearly there has been significant doubt raised as to whether
or not Terrence was in fact guilty, and that is why we are
interested in the case. We don’t condone any criminal
behavior, but it is also a crime to have the wrong person
doing time for a crime they did not commit.
Holloway: Mr. Speight, what
kinds of things do you think you are going to be able to accomplish
here and integrate into the national network from a local
point of view?
Speight: Well, what we are
going to focus on from this point forward is identifying some
leaders within our community. Activism in this area is a resource
that there is certainly a shortage of, and my goal is to identify
leaders within the community, enroll them, if you will, into
Reverend Sharpton’s leadership incubation program, and
we are going to send these leaders all throughout the state
of North Carolina and throughout the country, and begin to
use their talents to become more focused on the issues that
affect our community.
Holloway: Reverend Sharpton,
the Frontline documentary was “An Ordinary Crime.”
This is the kind of thing you see all over the country, but
it had some little quirks in it that made it unique. Do you
see these kinds of things going on all over the country? What
makes it unique to you here in North Carolina?
Sharpton: Well, I think we
do unfortunately see these situations all over the country,
which is why you need civil rights organizations like National
Action Network all over the country to address it. What makes
it unique here is that it is done in a way that I felt was
kind of blatant when you are dealing with the other young
man coming forward and then recanting in a county that was
the home county of the Ku Klux Klan. You know, a lot of people
delude themselves, even in the African American community,
that the Civil Rights days are over. You hear people talking
about “back in the day,” and the suggestion is
like that we don’t have issues today, like racial profiling
and discrimination, and cases like Terrence’s are not
today. We still have issues that need to be resolved. Anyone
would say that things are better than they were 40 years ago,
but that does not mean that they are where they should be.
Malcolm X used to say if you stick a knife in my back six
inches and take it out four inches, that still doesn’t
make me whole, it just means that I have two more inches that
I’ve got you get you out of my back. So to act like
we are not as knifed as we were does not mean that we should
not stop until we are not knifed at all.
Holloway: In terms of what
is going on in this state, and in this particular case, have
you seen other elected black officials that have come forward
that you are working with? I know that you are working with
some grassroots church leaders in that area.
Sharpton: We are working
with a lot of grassroots church leaders, and we are working
with other organizations. We had a great meeting with the
local NAACP, and we are talking with local officials. Some
of them will be coming forward on a variety of issues, some
on some things and not on others. But we try to, as we move
around the country and form chapters, be cooperative with
the leadership that is there, yet at the same time we move
in a fashion and style that is uniquely ours in the network.
We believe in being action-oriented. We have far too many
people who are long on analysis and short on action. You must
be able to make the rubber meet the road and get something
done. It doesn’t matter how brilliant you are. Unapplied
brilliance to me is just ignorance manifested.
Holloway: Mr. Speight, he
mentioned long on analysis and short on action. This case
with Terrence Garner has been going on for five years. What
have you heard in this area from local leaders in terms of
taking action on this case, and why do you think—I know
our documentary has re-ignited it—but where has the
black leadership been over the last five years?
Speight: In reference to
the Terrence Garner case, by my analysis they have fallen
short. It’s clearly a situation, as Reverend Sharpton
just mentioned, that there is some smoke there, and where
there is smoke there is apparently some fire. We believe that
there is some reluctance within our leadership to get involved,
perhaps the powers that be, there is some fear there. We can’t,
we don’t know exactly, but the grassroots has really
been involved with this. I was with last evening a gentleman,
Reverend Head out of Smithfield. He is taking the bull by
the horns with this case concerning Terrence Garner, and we
certainly solicit the involvement of our leadership, and that
is the direction we want to go in with them if we can just
get them involved.
Holloway: You were quoted
in the newspaper saying that if it had not been for your trip
to North Carolina years ago in terms of experiencing racism
that you may not be the Al Sharpton that is here today. Is
this something that is really unique to North Carolina, or
is it something that you are hearing that is happening in
other places?
Sharpton: We hear of cases,
but North Carolina has always had a history of bias and bigotry,
and it has also had a history of freedom fighters who have
fought against it. So when I think of North Carolina I think
in my own life, when I was a kid riding with my parents through
North Carolina and they couldn’t buy a hamburger, but
I also think about how we heard of the first student sit-ins
here. So inherent in the problem, people particularly of color
ought to have a pride in that some of the vanguard that changed
this nation came from North Carolina, and did the actual igniting
of the Civil Rights Movement here, which is so, in my judgement,
it is so much the reason why they have an obligation to continue
that. To have student leaders, the first in the sit-in movement,
emerge from North Carolina now being replaced by students
that will only get high in the dormitory is not a great level
of progressive continuation or continuity of our history.
So the young people today, I spoke at many of the colleges
around here as we have done this opening, young people today
need to know that history and to use their generation to continue
that history and to embellish upon the movement, not be the
dropouts and become the weak link in a long historical chain.
Holloway: We are talking
about leadership, and we are in a new millennium now, a new
century. Where do you see the new leadership coming from?
In the local paper they were talking that there is a generational
breakdown between those that support your causes and your
methodology as not being part of the older generation, or
the older Civil Rights Movement.
Sharpton: Well, you know,
it’s interesting, because some of the older guys that
were quoted forget that that’s how they got in the system.
I mean, I read one guy that says, “Well, I’m not
into a confrontational style.” Like they did not confront
in the ‘50s to get him in his position. I mean, it’s
almost lunacy being articulated. We learned it from them.
I didn’t invent marching and sitting in, we learned
it from Dr. King and that generation. And for those that are
the recipients of the spoils of that generation to sit back
and tell us don’t do the exact thing that sponsored
them either means that they have amnesia or insanity, or a
reasonable combination of both. Martin Luther King is in history
for doing the very things that we are trying to continue to
do now. Certainly none of us reach his level, so I don’t
know if it’s as much generational as people wanting
to say things to try to appease those that they feel that
they are now working with. Because the chairman of our board,
of the National Action Network, is Wyatt T. Walker, who was
Dr. King’s executive director, in his 70s. The person
that does, speaks keynotes at our major fundraiser every year
is Mrs. Coretta Scott King, who was Dr. King’s wife.
His son, Martin Luther King III… So it’s not that
the old timers of the Civil Rights Movement don’t support
us, as you have some local old Uncle Toms that don’t
want to say that they can get too close. But even then sometimes,
I remember the story in the bible where Nicodemus would go
see Christ at night, even some of them come see us very late
at night in the hotel, and we have our little Nicodemus meetings.
Holloway: Mr. Speight, where
do you think that the leadership is going to come from in
this new century now, this new millennium, here in North Carolina?
Speight: Well, the leadership
is going to come from universities like Duke, North Carolina
Central University, Shaw, St. Augustine’s. But I am
also working on a personal level with identifying leaders
who have never set foot on a college campus, who don’t,
who wouldn’t know anything about the Pythagorean Theorem
but who understand what it is to be on the street and can
relate and talk to the people on the street, and I am looking
for these individuals.
Holloway: Reverend Sharpton,
you have acknowledged several times publicly your intentions
to run for president of the United States, and you formed
an exploratory committee that Dr. West at Harvard is heading
up. You have received mixed support on that, haven’t
you?
Sharpton: Well, first of
all we have not announced it, so it’s not mixed support.
There has been reaction from some pros and cons. But I must
say that the reaction has been a lot more positive than I
even thought at this stage, which makes me even more inclined
to do it. We expect there will be detractors because you are
running against people, and you are running against people
who already have many people who have commitments to them
for a variety of reasons. I remember many years ago when the
Reverend Jesse Jackson ran, and I grew up as the youth director
of his organization in New York. Most black mayors and most
black members of congress didn’t support Reverend Jackson
in ’84, so 20 years later I feel that we understand
the phenomenon of those that will not go with it. The question
is can we sit by and allow election reform to go un-addressed
after what happened in the last election in Florida? Can we
sit by and allow two million people to be incarcerated and
no one raised from a national leadership level in the White
House how we are going to deal with this level of recidivism
and this level of a prison-industrial complex? Can we sit
by and continue to give tax breaks to the rich while working
class people are being put out of work, unemployment is rising,
and you have scandals like Enron? So the question is not will
I run, the question is why aren’t others? When the progressive
agenda talks about running, if they will not I must run, because
we cannot continue to have this kind of leadership nationally
that in my judgment serves the few at the expense of the many,
and will there be some to resist it? Absolutely. But what
they will realize is they will not, like they have had since
Reverend Jackson’s run, have a free ride opposing them,
it will be a fight, and they should come in the ring ready
to throw their best punch, because I am not going to be in
there posing, I am going to be in there swinging.
Holloway: Mr. Speight, have
you seen support or interest or reaction at a local level
to the Reverend’s anticipation of running?
Speight: Yes, I certainly
have. In my travels throughout the area people are constantly
asking me about Reverend Sharpton’s bid for the presidency.
I am inclined to ask them to…let’s discuss some
other issues, because he hasn’t addressed that or made
the declaration that he will, but that seems to be the topic
of the day. And I believe he has great support in this area,
and we are going to do what we can to stand behind Reverend
Sharpton whatever decision he makes.
Holloway: You read the article
that was quoted today in the News and Observer about
some of the criticism of leadership and why there was hesitancy
in supporting some of the tactics or areas that Reverend Sharpton
has focused on.
Speight: I can only echo
what Reverend Sharpton said earlier in relationship to that
issue. The individuals who simply can’t step out on
the ledge and support Reverend Sharpton, it is mighty funny
that in the press they say one thing, but late at night in
the hotel rooms buried away deep in the suites these individuals
show up with their arms wide open embracing Reverend Sharpton’s
issues and his stance on the issues. If that is the way they
need to go about doing things that is perfectly all right
with us as long as we can get their support. If we can get
their support financially, whatever, we’ll take it.
We understand that everybody isn’t in a position to
go public with their support, but we will take whatever support
we can get. But we also understand that our support doesn’t
come from such and such individual with such and such title.
Our support comes from the people on the street who go and
pull that switch in the ballot booth, and so that is where
we are focusing our efforts.
Sharpton: I think also there
has been of late a national debate that I particularly find
offensive to our community, where there is a blatant attempt
by so-called mainstream media to reinterpret what black leadership
is. There was a recent Newsweek magazine cover of three
corporate blacks and saying that this is the new black power.
And Richard Parsons of Time Warner and O’Neal and Ken
Chenault of American Express. Three people I respect and am
friendly with, I have a good relationship with them. But it’s
insulting to act like three corporate executives represent
this generation of Black Power. One, they work at white corporations.
They are not accountable to the black community, they are
accountable to stock holders of major corporations. Can you
imagine me saying that Donald Trump was the new white leader
of America? I mean, people would look at me like I had lost
my mind. So I mean, the way they play the game with us to
try to play one against the other is sickening. Of course
civil rights leaders are civil rights leaders, corporate leaders
are corporate leaders. If someone is brutalized by police
they are not going to call the chairman of the board of Time
Warner, they are going to call the civil rights organization.
If somebody is racially profiled they are not going to call
the president of American Express, nor should they. So for
white media to suggest that we don’t need these things
anymore because we now have blacks in power—we always
had black that were achieving power! But we needed a Dr. King,
we needed a Roy Wilkins. Just like you have many Jews in power,
but you still have the Anti-Defamation League and B’nai
B’rith. So why wouldn’t we need both? Why can’t
we have the successful black corporations and still keep civil
rights organizations, just like every other community has?
And the trick is to try to make us feel we need one or the
other rather than both/and. We are not that stupid.
Holloway: That’s the
point that I wanted to bring out earlier, that there is this
perception that there has to be one, and this monolith representation
of the black community.
Sharpton: But that is because
you have some people, quite frankly, that can only see one
black at a time, so they say if we’ve got a black in
office, we don’t need a black helping in the community.
Why not? You have white advocates. You have Ralph Nader and
Congress. How come you can’t have Al Sharpton and the
Black Caucus? Just like they said, “Is there a rift
between Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton?” Like we didn’t
have Martin Luther King and Malcolm X, Thurgood Marshall,
Roy Wilkins, Fannie Lou Hamer, all at the same time. Now it
can only be me or Jesse? That’s their limited view.
One black at a time? No—all of us are going to do what
we can to help everybody including whites. And we are not
going to be limited to one at a time because they don’t
have the ability to deal with one at a time. They are either
going to learn how to deal with, or digest more than one of
us at a time, or they are going to choke in the process.
Holloway: Speaking of that,
what kind of support are you getting in the white community?
Sharpton: We are getting
great support. You know, when I ran for mayor of New York
27% of the people who voted for me were white. I just left
Houston, Texas where we are dealing with the victims of the
Enron scandal, some of the ex-employees and investors—many
of them are white. It is not true that whites do not gravitate
toward that kind of civil rights leadership, they always have.
And I think that they want to again limit it, because they
know that many whites fought in the movement. Whites died
in the Civil Rights Movement when some blacks were not even
fighting. This has never been about just black and white,
this has always been about right and wrong, and only about
right and wrong.
Holloway: So Mr. Speight,
when you hear people talk about folks are not taking Reverend
Sharpton seriously, or you hear about this divide between
leadership and so forth, do you hear that same kind of thing
at the local level in this state?
Speight: Yes, I hear that
all the time. It’s just merely another device that is
used to bring more division or what would seem to be division
within our ranks. The press and the media have always done
that, there is a history of that. Reverend Sharpton has been
in this movement for over 30 years, and ever since I can remember
as a young child hearing about Reverend Sharpton’s activities,
I have heard that. But we, within the struggle and within
the community, we know better.
Sharpton: I think also, you
know, it is interesting that—and you raised earlier
about the presidential run—I would say that if you listen
to national media they say that I am thinking of running,
Tom Daschle, the Senate Majority Leader, is thinking of running,
Gephardt is thinking of running, and your own Senator Edwards
is thinking about running. Now, I came to Raleigh/Durham,
to the Triangle area. We have several hundred students at
North Carolina State, we had several hundred people come to
White Rock Baptist Church. Now I challenge you to bring Gephardt
in here and ask him to draw that many people. Or bring in
Mr. Daschle, or even your own senator. I mean, it is absolutely
ludicrous. All over the country people gravitate toward us.
You couldn’t get most people that they have rejected
to run for president to draw 200 people if they were giving
out free fried chicken sandwiches at the rally.
Holloway: As we conclude
here with just a couple of minutes left, are there any other
issues in terms of your National Network that you are looking
at here in North Carolina? I know one of the things was in
Princeville, but anything else that you all are interested
in?
Sharpton: We certainly are
going to be very involved in the rebuilding of Princeville,
we are certainly looking into criminal justice cases like
the one we talked about, and we certainly want to be looking
into—from a national level but that will have a local
import—the whole question of economic development, businesses.
We must support businesses in the indigenous communities of
color, and we must make sure that those major corporations
trade and do business contracts with them. We are going to
be very serious about that as we also mobilize voters. We
must turn around what happened in the 2000 election, and we
are fighting to deal with the whole attack on civil liberties
and civil rights of everybody, white and black. In the face
of the terrorist attack—and none of us support terrorism,
all of us deplore it—but the robbery of our civil liberties
that is beginning to happen from John Ashcroft has to be resisted
all over this country.
Holloway: Mr. Speight, what
about you? Final remarks in terms of other issues in this
state.
Speight: I concur with Reverend
Sharpton. We are certainly going to sustain it from that position.
We understand that there are some situations out in Western
North Carolina that we are exploring. There are some issues
out in Sanford that we are exploring, and we are soliciting
as much information on the many situations and crises that
have occurred. We are welcoming individuals to come and talk
with us and see if we can sit down at the table of reason
and begin to put some plans and efforts together to bring
about some solutions.
Holloway: Reverend Sharpton,
if you could give us a closing statement on some of the challenges
that you would give to the black community as we fight ongoing
problems.
Sharpton: Our challenge is,
I believe, that we have come a long way, and we came that
way through struggle. Frederick Douglas told us over a century
ago that without struggle there is no progress, and it never
has been and it never will be. And I think that those struggles
take different forms. Everyone doesn’t have to do it
my way, they should do their way. Some struggle behind the
scenes, some struggle in their job, some struggle by making
a difference, but everyone must be part of the struggle until
we achieve true equality, true fairness and true justice.
Always remember that there is a difference between peace and
quiet. Quiet means you go along with what is happening and
just shut up about it; justice means you make it fair so that
you have a lasting peace. We say in the National Action Network
that there can never be peace until there is justice.
Holloway: Thank you so much,
Reverend Al Sharpton, and also Mr. Earl Speight of the National
Action Network Triangle Chapter. Thank you for joining us
at Black Issues Forum. Also we would like to thank you for
joining us on Black Issues Forum. If you’d like more
information about the Reverend Al Sharpton or the National
Action Network, the Triangle Chapter here, please visit us
and contact us at the numbers and address on the screen. The
website is www.unctv.org. You can email us at bif@unctv.org,
or give us a call at (919) 549-7167. I’m Jay Holloway
for Black Issues Forum, thank you for joining us each and
every Friday night at 9:30. You have a blessed evening, good
night.
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