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Episode #1803
Public, Private and Charter Schools
Brown: Natalie Bullock
Brown, Host
Tucker: Dr. Otho Tucker
Farrell: Dr. Walter Farrell
Pearson: Dr. Dwight Pearson
Jordan: Mary Jordan, parent
A Kennedy: Arnold Kennedy, parent
Y Kennedy: Yvette Kennedy, parent
Griffin: Brenda Griffin, parent
M: Male Voice
F: Female Voice
Brown: Public,
private and charter schools: who's making the grade for African-American
kids? We'll talk about it next on Black Issues Forum.
Stay tuned.
Brown: Good evening
everyone, and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Natalie
Bullock-Brown, your host tonight, and we're asking the question,
who's making the grade for African-American students in North
Carolina: public, private or charter schools? Well, according
to a recent report, enrollment in private, charter and home
schools is on a dramatic incline. Since 1997, the number of
students in charter schools alone has quadrupled. Why such
growth? Reporter/producer Ginger Long visited a couple of
families and asked them why they made the switch away from
public schools.
Long: Mary Jordan's
daughter, Heather, attended public school for years. But when
high school started, Mary realized her child was not getting
the attention that she needed.
Jordan: There were
oftentimes when I would call the school and ask for help for
her. And a couple times was even told that well, we have several
hundred kids here and we cannot do one-on-one with your child.
And that was real discouraging. And also made me angry, so
I knew at that point I was more than likely going to start
looking for someplace else for her to go.
Long: After looking
around, Mary settled on a private school, the Word of God
Christian Academy. Here she says her daughter is getting the
personal attention that she needs.
Jordan: I would get
a message from one of the teachers: Miss Jordan, this is Miss
So and So; could you give me a call. Heather, what have you
done? And when I called and they say we just wanted to let
you know about your child's progress. I'm like, oh, okay.
And that is probably one of the most refreshing things.
Long: Arnold and Yvette
Kennedy have four children, all of whom also attend the Word
of God Christian Academy.
A Kennedy: We knew
it would be a sacrifice to put our children in the private
school, because you're paying money out of your pocket. You
could be paying that money for something else. But we couldn't
figure out anything that would be more important than education.
Y Kennedy: Our children
are in classes where there are 15 students at the most in
the classes, and they do get that one-on-one. I like for them
to be in the school where they are, because it is a Christian
school, and with it being a Christian school, there are moral
values that are being taught that cannot possibly be taught
in the public school also.
Long: Private school
is one path parents can take. Brenda Griffin of Raleigh found
another alternative for her children.
Griffin: When I started
talking around about two years before he started school, and
people would tell me that oh, my kid's got 27 kids in their
classroom, and I'm like hold up, that's not something I'm
looking for. And not only that, my friend's kids maybe every
other year will get transferred to a whole another district,
you know, the schools. I didn't want that.
Long: Brenda and her
family found Preeminent Charter School in Raleigh. Nigel is
now in his third year in the charter school and Bria is starting
kindergarten.
Grffin: I think that
they are getting an excellent education. And his last year,
teacher had 23 students, and out of 23 students, I can tell
you 98% 99% of them were on honor role. And that shows you
a lot.
Long: According to
the department of public instruction, there's a 30% gap between
the performance of African-American students and white students
across North Carolina. Alternative schooling methods may be
part of the answer to this achievement gap.
F: She started reading
more books, I mean, actually reading novels and stuff, since
she's been here. She's able to get that one-on-one attention
that I think a lot of kids are missing in the public school
system.
F: Everybody let them
know that they can do it. Anything they set their minds and
their dreams to, they can do it. And that's what I like about
the school: they give them higher goals.
F: Everything that
we have heard the teachers say, is positive: building the
children up, letting them know they can do, they can accomplish,
and that no one will give up on them and that they'll go the
last round with them.
Brown: Despite the
growing number of parents choosing alternative schooling,
there remains strong support for public schools, as we learned
from residents in New Hanover County.
F: I personally prefer
a public because you get to know a lot of different people
who would be there; where charter there may be a person who
can afford to be there.
F: I don't know anything
else about charters and all the types of schools, but I think
the public schools definitely could use a lot more participation
with the parents, and involvement.
F: I believe that children
should go to public schools and they need to have a lot of
participation though from the parents to give them a lot of
moral support and in getting involved.
F: I have had my children
in private school and brought them back to public. I have
one child I would suggest public school for, and one I would
suggest private, because of their learning skills and their
learning ability. One needs more special attention and the
other one is more independent.
M: I think that they
can do well, both public and private. I've tried them both.
My bottom line is that vast experiences in the public school
system, because they give an opportunity to relate to my opportunities
in life that they're going to have to deal with.
F: Public school systems
seem to serve them better. You have more opportunity to get
federal and state aid, when they can't afford lunches, that
sort of thing. And it's definitely cheaper.
Brown: We see that
public opinion is wide and varied. So to help us examine which
schools are best for our kids, we have a panel of knowledgeable
guests. I'd like to welcome Dr. Otho Tucker, director of the
North Carolina Office of Charter Schools; Dr. Walter Farrell,
a professor of social work at the University of North Carolina
at Chapel Hill; and Dr. Dwight Pearson, section chief for
closing the achievement gap at the Department of Public Instruction.
Now let me start out and just make sure that we understand
the difference between charter and public schools. And Dr.
Tucker, you were telling me that there really isn't a difference,
but what distinguishes charter schools from your normal public
school?
Tucker: I think this
is one of the things that many people don't understand, is
that charter schools are public schools. There is no tuition
or cost or fees that goes along with being and participating
in charter schools. The difference is in the structure and
the design of the governance, and also of the funding sources.
The governance of a charter school is that of a non-profit
board. And that board is selected to just govern that one
school where in a traditional public school setting, they
would cover a school district. The other one is the option
with the funding, and the funding comes in more in a block-type
funding mechanism rather than specifically designed or designated
to go into certain areas. So the school has the opportunity
to move the funds and place them in areas that they see the
most need.
Brown: Well let's talk
about criticisms. We want to start with public schools first.
And while there is a lot of support for public schools, there
are some criticisms, and I think that charter schools and
possibly magnet schools as well are one way that the state
is trying to improve public education. But Dr. Pearson, can
you tell me, I mean, what are some of the criticisms that
you have heard about public schools, what kind of concerns
do parents have and what is DPI doing to try and address these
concerns?
Pearson: Well some
of the concerns is that all children are not being adequately
served in public schools. However, when we look at the data,
especially as it relates to issues such as the achievement
gap, what we found is that over time-when I say over time
I'm talking about since about 1992-that general achievement
in the state of North Carolina for all groups of students,
all ethnic groups including African-Americans, has actually
increased. For instance, if we look at the data in 1992, in
this state, about 30% of African-American students were performing
at or above grade level, whereas now, about 52% of African-American
students are performing at or above grade level. And of course
that's not where we want to be. We want to get to the point
that 100% of all groups of students are performing at or above
grade level. But the point is, is that over time, you know,
if you just look at those statistics I've just given you,
that over time that there has been an increase. Now, one of
the major issues that we are constantly confronted with is
this whole issue that we call the achievement gap. And because
what we're looking at with the achievement gap is that there
is a disparity between the achievement levels of African-American
students and white students, about a 30-point disparity. But
as I said, if we look at the real statistics and look at the
trend lines, what they will show is that over time, that African-American
students, as well as other students in this state, have gradually
improved. But the objective is to get 100% at or above grade
level. Now, the question is, what is the state doing about
it? One of the things that the state is doing, of course,
is looking at this issue. We have done a good job over time
of desegregating data to be able to identify this has been
a problem. In fact, you might be familiar with the new federal
legislation, No Child Left Behind, which a major focus of
this legislation is to address the achievement gap. Well,
part of that legislation is actually modeled on what North
Carolina is in fact doing. In the North Carolina model, our
objective is to make sure that 100% of all students in this
state are scoring at or above grade level by 2010. The federal
legislation says 2012. So our agenda is a little bit more
ambitious. We have recently put together a commission that
has made recommendations to the State Board of Education,
in terms of-they have 11 recommendations of things that we
should actually do in order to address achievement. The Department
of Public Instruction has since developed an action plan to
make sure that those recommendations come into place.
Brown: Thank you. Dr.
Farrell, I want to bring you into this conversation tonight.
I know that there was a point at which you were in support
of vouchers in another state, but in general I understand
that this was something that you were in support of. But you
are at the same time, or you have since changed your view
and you are in support of public schools, and I'm wondering
what sort of things, in light of what Dr. Pearson has said-why
do you support public schools; what do you think is invalid
about vouchers? And you don't have to get too much into that,
because we are going to deal with that a little later.
Farrell: Well the main
problem is that the majority of American public school children
attending K-12 education, will be enrolled in public education
now and in the foreseeable future. When I supported the voucher
legislation in Wisconsin in 1990, I supported it as an experiment.
As an experiment to see that it was carefully controlled to
measure progress over a period of five years, with the understanding
that the whole experiment was sunset at that time. But what
happened, the politics changed in the state and then they
extended the program without any of the controls and measurements,
and now it's just a wide-open program. I've always been a
supporter of public education. And my excursion into vouchers
was purely experimental. But the major challenges that are
facing public education today are not going to be solved by
charter schools, they're not going to be solved by vouchers;
because the vast majority of children are going to be there
and they are not self-selected, as is the case for many of
the parents of students in voucher schools or charter schools,
because you have to choose to go to charter schools. Any kid
who reaches the age of five in a state where there is kindergarten,
or six, has to be enrolled in public education. They cannot,
public education cannot cap the enrollment of students, as
is the case for voucher schools and charter schools. So I
think that we want to do what we can do in education for the
greatest number. And since we have approximately 90% of students
in this nation enrolled in public education, we've got to
repair the problem there.
Brown: Thank you. Well,
Dr. Tucker, one of the things that I have heard as a criticism
of charter schools is that in many instances the students,
even if it's a well-integrated school, there's still a different
system or a different tracking for different students and
what I mean is that the black students are primarily in the
basic classes, even though they're at a charter school. And
the white students are in the more advanced, more progressive
track of classes. Can you address that and how does-whether
or not that's true-and how does, what are charter schools
doing to try to address some of the issues that Dr. Farrell
was speaking of?
Tucker: First, I would
agree with Dr. Farrell that we have 90% of our students in
traditional public schools and we have to make sure that we
make a solid support of the traditional public school systems
because that's where most of our students are going to be.
And obviously we're not going to grow the voucher movement,
or we're not going to grow the charter movement at a rate
that will change those numbers drastically in the near future.
And so, knowing that we want to do things as quickly and efficiently
as possible, obviously we have to do very much to help with
the traditional public school system. I think one of the things
that's a misconception of charter schools is that they really
are a school that's built in the same design as a traditional
public school, and with that, I think, we think of a traditional
public school as serving everyone and every need. Charter
schools are designed specifically with a mission and purpose
in mind. So I think that the choice of a charter school is
sometimes difficult because you need to make sure that the
child that you're placing into a charter school or private
school fits the needs and designs of that school. I think
their scope is limited. Once those matches are made, I think,
as one of the mothers mentioned on the program earlier, once
the match was made, she decided that she had one child that
needed, probably, the expertise that was available in the
private school and one in the traditional public school. So
I think the investigation and understanding the school is
very important. As an ex-operator of a charter school, I didn't
see that. We had one track. We had one design. And I think
most of the charter schools are set up with that in mind.
Brown: Well now, tell
me how charter schools in their design are possibly able to
address the issues that surround the achievement gap and what
Dr. Pearson was talking about. How can charter schools improve
that gap?
Tucker: I think innovation,
experimentation is part of it, but obviously we want to be
very cautious as we experiment with our nation's children.
We want to make sure that we're making quality decisions,
so best practices is a very important part of that program.
We in North Carolina have seen some wonderful gains with African-American
students in charter schools. There is a school just in the
Durham area that's gone from a composite score in one year,
went from a composite score in the 30s to a composite score
in the 70s,meaning 70% of the kids on grade level, and about
a 99% African-American population. I have another one this
year that took a group of students that were in the 30s or
40% and went to 77%. So there are things that are happening
in these schools. I think the real issue now is to get into
those schools and find out what they did to make that significant
difference and to help close that achievement gap as quickly
as possible.
Brown: Well, Dr. Pearson,
I wanted to ask you that about our general population of public
schools. You talked about a percentage increase from 50-52%
in African-Americans and their performance overall in school.
Now, what can the Department of Public Instruction attribute
that to and what is being done to try and increase that even
more?
Pearson: Several things.
One of the things that we've done over time is to actually
study what has gone on in schools that have actually been
effective in educating African-American students and actually
raising the level of achievement. And one of the things that
we find is that in the schools, or schools that have been
successful, is that there is a focus on high academic standards,
that they have a high level of accountability; they hold students
accountable, to make sure that they are working up to their
maximum potential. Also in such schools, they insure that
parents are involved in the process, and as one of your earlier
guests pointed out, that parental involvement is absolutely
critical, because what we find is that where parents are involved,
students tend to achieve. Also we find that schools that tend
to be successful in educating African-American students tend
to place a great deal of emphasis on celebrating the diversity
of the student population. One of your participants from Wilmington
made the comment that students live in a diverse world, and
that is true; that's why public school is so important. That
as we function in this multicultural democracy that we live
in, public schools tend to mirror the population. So as a
result of working in or studying in public schools, what students
do, they are able to interact with a diverse population of
people, which of course reflects the natural work that they're
going to go into. The Department of Public Instruction, in
working to address the achievement gap, is in fact this year
we have a pilot going on in which we're working with specific
schools in the State of North Carolina to see whether or not
some of the best practices that Dr. Tucker mentioned, make
a difference. One school that we are working is an elementary
school, and in this particular school, the level of achievement
of African-American students increased by 16% in reading and
18% in mathematics. And basically what we did in this particular
school, we went in and actually focused: we showed the teachers
different techniques to use to make sure that students were
engaged in the process. Of course we showed them certain techniques,
say, for tutoring, that would work. We know that there are
things that would work in terms of improving student achievement.
However, sometimes we think that there is a silver bullet
that we can apply in all situations and they will work instantly,
would not.
Brown: Let me just
cut in here and get Dr. Farrell in. and I want to ask you,
as someone who has a Ph.D. in social work, and someone who
has been looking at the issue of public and private schools,
and especially with vouchers as a part of what you have looked
at, what would you say is the key? I mean, of course there
is no silver bullet, but what sort of combination of various
factors is really at the heart of getting kids to achieve?
Is it parents, is it teachers expecting more, is it the kids
themselves; what would you say?
Farrell: I think all
of the above, and I think Dr. Tucker made a very salient point
earlier when he spoke indirectly about class size. Charter
schools, voucher schools, by design also have smaller classes,
which public schools do not have the resources to create.
If you can have consistently, and I think one of the parents
mentioned it, do a 1-15 ratio; that's ideal for focusing with
kids, especially with the children who come from low socioeconomic
status where they're coming to school with challenges that
are external to the school. That's one thing. Of course if
you have a certified teacher, which is No Child Left Behind,
legislation is calling for it, in front of youngsters. But
the challenge in public education, it's hard to stabilize
the population over time, especially the elementary and middle
school level, because there's such high rates of mobility.
Especially in school systems populated by significant numbers
of low-income students. Voucher schools and charter schools
are not faced with that dilemma. And so to the extent that
you can provide more resources as students attending our urban
public school systems, and increasingly rural public school
systems across this nation, are bringing to the school more
challenges, we're going to need more resources. And as we
just aggregate these resources, then there are fewer of them
to address the issues of class size, qualified teachers, extra
resources, extra time; because teachers in public schools
can not cap their enrollment. Frequently the school was thought
out with a ratio of 1-30, which is too high, and then the
principal would say, well, we had an increase in the number
of students enrolled this year. So your class has to go up
to 35. That doesn't happen in the same way in voucher and
charter schools, and but the critical issue, and I think Dr.
Pearson mentioned, that parent involvement. Charter schools,
voucher schools, can explicitly and implicitly mandate parental
involvement, because they have a group of parents who already
self-motivated, to have self-elected to participate. Public
schools frequently in socially and economically challenged
environments have to beg for parent involvement. And this
is not an easy thing. And so many of the parents who need
to be involved, don't have the requisite social or financial
resources to be involved on a regular basis. And so the public
schools again have to pick up that slack.
Brown: Thank you. Now,
I'm understanding-I have some graphics, some percentages that
I wanted to share with you. I understand that 19% of North
Carolina's charter schools met-well actually had high growth.
They were rated as having high growth, I believe in last year's
ABC's report. And 9% were rated as having met their expected
growth where students made 180 days worth of growth in 180
days; so they did what they were expected to do in the expected
time. Dr. Tucker, what's in the future and why are charter
schools maybe a good alternative to private schools, for parents
who cannot afford. And I need you to do this as quickly as
possible for us.
Tucker: This year's
numbers look more like 25% are going to make high growth,
and somewhere 12 or a little over, are going to make expected
growth. So those numbers are up dramatically. And actually
that high growth would be a number that would be up rivaling
the traditional public schools. I think the big thing that
is difficult with charter schools is the first year, that
first year of organization. And the state's done some great
things to change that structure. I think the one thing that
rivals charter schools with private schools is the idea of
no tuition and no fees. It gives parents a choice to come
into a setting that's maybe smaller, that keeps them from
having to dip into their own pocket, and to some of the resources
that they have to use for the rest of the family and be able
to look at some sort of an education program that's smaller.
Brown: Thank you so
much. I'd like to thank Dr. Tucker, Dr. Farrell and Dr. Pearson
for their expertise on tonight's program. If you'd like to
learn more about the work of our guests or the issues we've
been discussing around school choice, please visit the Black
Issues Forum web site, at www.unctv.org/bif. We would
also like to hear your feedback and suggestions, so send us
an email, or you can call the BIF line at 919-549-7167. Be
sure to join Black Issues Forum each Friday night at
9:30. I'm Natalie Bullock Brown reminding you to be encouraged
no matter what. Have a good night.
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