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Episode #1804
Jim Crow: Why Remember?
Host: Natalie
Bullock-Brown, Host
Palmer: Dr. E. B. Palmer
Hall: Dr. Jarvis A. Hall
Elliot: Dr. Jeffrey M. Elliot
M: Male Voice
[CHOIR SINGING]
Host: PBS
has a new series called The Rise and Fall of Jim Crow.
But why are we talking about Jim Crow in this day and age
anyway? Tonight, on Black Issues Forum.
Voiceover: This program
was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV from viewers
like you. Thank you.
[THEME MUSIC]
Host: Good evening.
I'm Natalie Bullock-Brown and this is Black Issues Forum.
Tonight we're on the campus of North Carolina Central University
in Durham where we're going to have a very special town hall
meeting on why we should remember the Jim Crow era and African-American
life under it. We'll get to our discussion in just a moment.
But first I'd like to introduce you to our distinguished panel
of guests. With us tonight we have Dr. E. B. Palmer, founder
of the Afro-American Cultural Complex in Raleigh. We also
have with us Dr. Jarvis A. Hall, professor of political science
at North Carolina Central University. And we also have with
us tonight Dr. Jeffrey M. Elliot, professor of political science
at North Carolina Central University. We're also joined by
a wonderful group of students and faculty from North Carolina
Central University and we're very happy to have all of you
here. Now, we'll be hearing from our guests and taking questions
from the floor during our discussion tonight; but first we
have a clip from a new four-part PBS documentary series called
The Rise and Fall of Jim Crow that will air on UNC
TV beginning October 1st. Let's take a look.
In 1836, Jim Crow was born. He
begins his strange career as a malicious minstrel caricature
of a black man, created by a white man to amuse white audiences.
Jim Crow would come to symbolize one of the most tragic eras
of race relations in American history, a time deeply rooted
in promise and contradiction. 1865: 4 million Americans, slaves
simply because they were born black, were now free. But in
a little over a decade, that promise was gone, replaced by
a rigid system of laws designed to keep blacks from experiencing
any of their newly achieved rights. It would be known as the
era of Jim Crow, the American form of racial apartheid.
I tried to lean inside and get
me a cup of water, and those white people beat me until I
was unconscious. They thought I was dead.
My dad said as long as you are
living in this South, you're going to have to go to the back
door in this town, now you just settle for that. He said,
well, one thing I want you to swear and promise to me, that
you will never get used to it.
I'm not ashamed of the segregated,
and Jim Crow experience, all because we were able to devise
techniques for survival that permitted us to abide our time
and to wait until our change come.
Host: Now, to our panelists
first, in light of what we've seen and the gains that have
been made, and I guess they're debatable, since Jim Crow in
this country was abolished, let say, in the 1960s. Dr. E.
B. Palmer, let me start with you; do you think that there
is an appreciation or should there be an appreciation for
progress made by African-Americans since the Jim Crow era
ended, are we still under it?
Palmer: Whether there
can be an appreciation for it can seriously be debated. But
there certainly should be an understanding of what took place,
the period in which we found ourselves and the period in which
we find ourselves today. And then you'd have to be the judge
of what's considered progress. Sure there have been some changes,
things are a bit different from what they were when I was
a student here at North Carolina Central. I was president
of the student government, but we used to have to go in the
side door of the Carolina Theater and the Center Theater uptown,
and so we took a Saturday and had a protest group carrying
placards against entering the Center Theater and the Carolina
Theater from the side door, while the whites went in the front
door. But the students here at North Carolina Central now
can't even imagine Fayetteville Street without a bus, but
there were no buses that came into the black community. And
so we had to get to school best way we could; most of us walked.
Host: Well, Dr. Palmer,
let me move on to Professor Elliot. Let me ask you, even in
light of what Dr. Palmer has said, why should we remember
Jim Crow? It seems that perhaps there is a need for us to
understand the past in order for us to comprehend what's going
on now and what might happen in the future.
Elliot: Well, many
would argue that African-Americans are still living in the
period of Jim Crow; that while we struck down many laws such
as grandfather clauses, voting literacy tests, white-only
primaries, etc. The Jim Crow that exists today is institutionally
fomented, encouraged, rewarded, perpetuated; and that while
the overt violence of the past that took the form of lynchings,
harassment, intimidation, may be less visible today, it still
exists across America. We can see it with racial profiling;
we can see it with the bombing of churches; we can see it
with the harassment of individuals who attempt to integrate
communities which are mostly white, in terms of housing. So
I wouldn't be so quick to argue that Jim Crow is dead; I would
argue that it's taken new forms, often more pernicious, more
evil and much more difficult to combat.
Host: Well Dr. Hall,
could you explain then, if this is true, if Jim Crow is still
going on today, then are documentaries like The Rise and
Fall of Jim Crow fanning the fire? I mean, do they help
us to come together, do they help us to make some progress
so that we can finally end the era of Jim Crow, or do they
simply keep us focusing on the same negative, or potentially
negative, problems and situations and discrimination? What
do you think?
Hall: Well just as
has already been said, there are many deep-rooted problems
in the black community that are a direct result of the legalized
form of segregation that existed, especially in the American
South. I think what is important is that we always have to
remember we have to learn from history, because if we don't
learn from history then certainly we would repeat the dumb
mistakes of the past. Now some people would say that Jim Crow
was not a mistake because they actually had the privileges
of Jim Crow, and so you still have some people out there who
may be in certain segments, of especially the white community,
who would feel that if there was more of a subjugation of
the black community in an institutionalized way, that they
would be able to receive the benefits of that type of thing.
But the important thing is we have to look at history to make
sure that we don't repeat the problems of the past.
Host: Well Dr. Palmer,
is history being represented accurately enough so that we
can really have the opportunity to understand what has taken
place in the past so that we don't repeat it? Would you say
that it's been distorted in any way?
Palmer: People today
don't realize that when the history of African-Americans is
presented in the western hemisphere-in this case, in America-that
history is often slanted, it's distorted; but in too many
instances that history is omitted. So consequently the history
of African-Americans has yet to be depicted accurately. And
as a museum, we are trying to bring awareness of that to the
public and try to help the present-day generation to learn
from their past and not to repeat these same mistakes again.
But Jim Crow is by no means a form of comedy, of the African-American
syndrome called the Jim Crow Era. Jim Crow was an intentional,
deliberate institution that was to define white supremacy
and to keep African-Americans stereotyped as ignorant and
people who cannot even manage their own affairs, that you
have to have the master as your guardian to keep and protect
you. And that stigma is still prevalent today, that stereotype,
superiority is still prevalent. We could go on and on.
Host: I appreciate
what you said. I want to remind our audience that if you have
any questions, please feel free to get up and go to the mic
and we will put you in the conversation as best we can. Dr.
Elliot let me come to you and ask you this: you said that
Jim Crow isn't really dead. Can you elaborate on how it still
manifests itself in this day and age?
Elliot: Well first
I would say that violence, hate, bigotry and prejudice are
alive everywhere in America, and we see that in the report
of hate crimes throughout this country. They're not limited
to African-Americans; they cut across all racial, ethnic and
many religious groups. Now, the way we have done reasonably
well in the sense that we've attempted to eliminate basic
legal barriers to full participation, but the fact remains
the impact of Jim Crow is seen in every American political
institution: we can see it in housing, in education, in transportation,
in opportunity; the way in which people live, who lives what,
where, when, etc. And our community, some would argue as I
would argue, that this is still a very segregated community,
that we never truly eliminated segregation. And that you can
travel the length and breadth of Durham and very easily discern
who lives where; and to some extent it's based on race, and
to some extent it's based on class. And class is one of the
great problems, which when combined with race, further condemns
millions of African-Americans to second-class status. Until
we confront both race and class and see them as inextricably
bound, we will have the kind of living conditions which we
see across America which spell out inequality.
Host: Thank you, Dr.
Elliot. Dr. Hall, in light of what Dr. Elliot said, you know
there are critics of just any sort of efforts for African-Americans
to try and maintain affirmative action, let's say, or even
welfare; other governmental policies that are meant to help
African-Americans. There are people that would say, get over
it, you've had some help, you're perpetuating this sense of
victimization. How do we fight inequality in this day and
age when so much seems to have been done, but as Dr. Elliot
said, there's so much that's still obvious that needs to be
addressed?
Hall: well it's quite
obvious to many I think that not enough has been done, that
even with the token efforts I think on the part of federal
government to address issues of discrimination and to some
extent, poverty with the War on Poverty program, that it was
still not as expansive as it should have been to eliminate
the kinds of disparities that existed then and still exist
now. And I think when we have programs like this, when we
have a look at Jim Crow in a systematic way, we can see how
the residuals of those things still exist and how they are
perpetuated today.
Host: Thank you. We've
got a question on the floor. Yes?
M: Yes, my name is
Marcus Nebius, and I'm a history major here at North Carolina
Central University, and my question is simply that since it
can be said that in a sense history teaches us to never forget,
what efforts can be made to promote the accurate depiction
of history as it has happened here in America.
Host: Thank you for
your question. I'm going to give that to Dr. Palmer. What
would you say to that?
Palmer: We've got to
have more recorded history as accurately presented about the
African-American diaspora. We've got to have open discussions
like we're having now. We've got to bring out of the African-American
community those hidden artifacts and memories and stories
about our past, so that others can enjoy it. I keep hearing
the work that African-Americans did to develop this county;
somebody forgot the brilliant contribution we have given academically
through things like science and medicine and art, and the
other fields of activity. During the Jim Crow period, African-Americans
made some of the most notable contributions to America. Just
take, for example, the invention of the electric light bulb:
nobody has a bit of concern about Thomas Edison having been
the inventor of the electric light bulb, but nobody gives
the credit to the light bulb we use every day is not the one
invented by Thomas Edison: his didn't work. That was invented
by an African-American named Lewis Lattimer.
Host: Dr. Palmer, thank
you. I'm going to get to the next question in a moment, but
Dr. Elliot, I'd like to ask you this: does the way that our
history-or African-American history, let's say-in our education
about Jim Crow in the schools have any effect on how African-Americans
and people in general learn to operate within this present-day
society and operate in the future?
Elliot: Well I think
our public education system in this country is terribly broke
in many ways: broke in terms of content, pedagogy and moral
fiber. Huge numbers of individuals, both black and white,
are graduating from public schools in this country knowing
little about their own history, and, more sadly, graduating
without a real interest in or desire to learn more. The schools
are failing in many profound ways. I also want to say that
this education has to take place at every level of American
society; it can't be limited to the schools: our President
must be an educational leader; our teachers must be educational
leaders; our corporate leaders must teach as well. There's
no evidence of real will throughout American society to teach
this history and to make sure that everyone understands that
history can well repeat itself, that these victories that
have been won are transitory. The ills of the past can well
be played out in the future, that we have to be vigilant and
we have to know our history so as not to repeat it. But the
lack of moral leadership running from Raleigh to Washington,
DC and the failure of our leaders to talk honestly and openly
and directly to us, and encourage a meaningful dialogue, encourages
this sort of apolitical approach, ahistorical approach, where
we tend to think things are better and we're on the road to
progress, when in fact things can go terribly wrong terribly
quickly.
Host: Dr. Hall, so
what do we do if our leaders are not putting us on the right
path to emphasize, to reiterate the past wrongs, how they
need to be righted, if that's not being addressed in the larger
society, what role is the community and even the children-the
students, rather-that are here today, what responsibility
do they have?
Hall: Well I think
that we as adults and as teachers and as professors and as
community activists, have a responsibility to talk to the
students, to talk to people in the community to tell them
why it is so important for them to become interested in the
political system, to have a good sense of history. They often
understand that when you look at history, we see that there
are certain parallels between what is going on now and what
has happened at the end of the 19th century that
ushered in the period of Jim Crow and attack against those
parts or policies that are called civil rights; violence on
the black community; this talk about laissez-faire and a retrenchment
in the road that especially the federal government ought to
play in terms of bringing about fairness. So there are certain
important parallels that we have to talk about, that our students
have to understand, and that those in our communities have
to understand to make the demands on those at the upper echelons
to make sure that the entire society is addressing the problem.
Host: We have a question
from the floor, yes. Would you please introduce yourself?
M: My name is Preston
Barnes, I'm a Durham resident, A&T grad; the thing that
I see is that not only are you talking about Tulsa or Rosewood,
but you're talking about this law school was created with
people like Hocutt and Donald Murray challenging the UNC System,
trying to get into school there. So my problem is that the
Legislature now is not funding the black universities. Even
to the degree of a lawsuit in Mississippi, with Grambling
and the schools down there, they have to fight legally just
to get funding. And now we see Elizabeth City is maybe considering
for a School of Pharmacy. But they've been existing for a
long time and not having high degree programs like that, and
I have a problem with that.
Host: Thank you for
your comment. Dr. Palmer?
Palmer: I'll save
my cohorts on the panel the embarrassment of responding, since
they work at this institution. The new game, or Jim Crow,
is to desegregate out of existence, law school funding, college
student, faculty make-up. The new approach is to lose the
identity of the African-American in this society so that he
will not have to be given affirmative action and funding.
Someone has gotten all upset about integration, forgetting
the steps that achieve integration: you've got to go through
desegregation first. And that's another attitudinal form of
Jim Crow. And one of the things that's plaguing us now that's
bothering me, is when they ask you in your census, "What
race are you?" some of us are beginning to take great
pride in being labeled as others. We're not African-American,
we're not White, we're not Indians; we're Others. And that
Others is getting the black community into trouble when it
comes down to financial appropriation. And if we can integrate
the blacks throughout all of their social structures, educational
structures, to an extent that they no longer are in a majority,
and that's what's happening to the population with this great
influx of foreign people, you aren't going to be labeled African-Americans
and identified and you won't need special appropriation for
this law school because this would be such an integrated setting,
as we have been trying to achieve throughout American society.
But desegregate it and not integrate it, puts us right back
where we've been all the time in the Jim Crow Separate But
Equal.
Host: Dr. Palmer, thank
you for your comment. Dr. Elliot, what would you say in response
to that?
Elliot: Well of course
black colleges are under assault, particularly private black
colleges across this country, where funding is a very real
problem. And there's no evidence, at least in the immediate
future, that that problem will reverse itself. There are also
great disparities between funding levels of campuses like
the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and this institution,
and those disparities are glaring, both in terms of faculty
salaries, facilities, equipment, degree programs offered.
There is the belief on the part of UNC that Chapel Hill should
be the central campus, the dominant campus, the major campus;
it's a predominantly white campus; that NC State should follow
as a secondary research institution. But in the case of African-American
colleges, there is no perception that we are able to compete
as well or better, to produce as many first-rate scholars
as do they. We have no Ph.D. program here-a plethora of programs
both at State and UNC. There is still the sad perception that
if you choose to teach here, it is because you could not teach
at UNC or NC State, that somehow you weren't good enough.
The fact is, you could match credentials of faculty here and
faculty there and you would see very clearly there is no real
disparity; there are as many talented, gifted, capable faculty
here-and students-who are equally competent.
Host: Thank you, Dr.
Elliot. Dr. Hall, bringing us back to Jim Crow, these issues
that the young man at the mic brought up, what Dr. Elliot
and Dr. Palmer have been discussing in terms of how appropriations
are distributed to white schools versus black schools; does
all this play a part in the perpetuation of Jim Crow?
Hall: Oh quite obviously;
and what we need to know is that there's real talk now about
trying to develop a two or three-tier system here in North
Carolina that is similar to that which exists in California.
And just as Dr. Elliot said, you would have something like
in the top tier, the research-oriented institutions, and then
in the second tier, the regional comprehensive schools. And
one has to wonder when that plays out, exactly where would
North Carolina Central and other universities like it be?
And if I may mention, there are some people who question,
and these are people who are in positions of power, question
what is the role and the necessity of HBCUs today. And that's
something that we need to talk about, and that students should
know about, and folks who are supposed to be the leaders of
our community ought to be talking about.
Host: I'm sorry, unless
you have a comment and you can make it in about ten seconds,
let's hear from you-
F: I had a question-
Host: Okay, let's hear
it.
F: My name's Patricia
Jones, I'm a junior here at North Carolina Central University;
on Saturday there was a meeting here in Durham and there are
hopes that we can work toward establishing a black monument
here in North Carolina, and I was just wondering how much
of a role do you all think Jim Crow played in the fact that
it's 2002 today in North Carolina and many other states still
do not have black monuments to represent African-Americans?
Host: I'm going to
ask that the panelists perhaps address this question after
we're done, but believe it or not, we're out of time, and
we do hope that everyone has learned something here today.
What I'd like to remind you of is that we have a web site
where you can learn more about Jim Crow; you can also learn
more about the work of our guests, and that's found at www.unctv.org/bif.
We also want to hear from you, so send in your emails or call
us at 919-549-7167. Please watch Black Issues Forum
every Friday evening, at 9:30 PM. I'm Natalie Bullock-Brown
reminding you to stay encouraged no matter what. Have a good
evening.
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