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Episode #1817
Before You Marry...
Brown: Natalie Bullock-Brown,
Host
Abdur-Razzaq: Shelda Abdur-Razzaq, Triangle Associates for
Well-Being
Anderson: Rev. Paul L. Anderson, pastor, Baptist Grove Church
Hayes: Deria Phillips Hayes, Attorney
Brown:
So
you’re thinking about getting married. You’d be
surprised how much there is to think and talk about before
you say, “I do.” We’ll discuss what you
need to know tonight on Black Issues Forum.
Voiceover:
This program was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV
from viewers like you. Thank you.
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Brown:
Good evening everyone, I’m Natalie Bullock-Brown, your
host tonight. Thank you for joining us. National statistics
state that half of all American marriages end in divorce,
and many couples who want to make a lifelong commitment to
each other wonder what it takes to get married and stay that
way. Some may even wonder if it’s worth getting married
at all. But according to experts, there are a host of things
couples can do to prepare themselves for the challenges of
marriage, and to put them on the right track towards a successful
union. Here to help us flesh out what couples need to think
about and do before they join in holy matrimony are our esteemed
guests: Reverend Paul L. Anderson, pastor of Baptist Grove
Church in Raleigh, who gives spiritual counsel to church members
seeking to get married; Shelda Abdur-Razzaq, a licensed professional
counselor and partner in the Durham-based Triangle Associates
for Well-Being, who counsels wed and unwed couples; and Deria
Phillips-Hayes, an attorney who works in domestic law with
the Durham law offices of James D. Williams. Thank you, all
of you, for being on the show tonight.
Let’s
start out by asking a question to all of you, and—Reverend
Anderson, why don’t you start, and then we’ll
just go down the line. I know you’ve counseled many
couples who are considering marriage, and also divorce. What
would you say are the two most important pieces of information
that each partner should know about each other prior to thinking
about marriage?
Anderson:
That’s almost a complex question. In my mind, I
think the first question we ought to ask ourselves, personally,
is, “Am I ready for marriage?” Because a lot of
times we’re ready, but we’re just ready to get
married, but maybe not to that person. And then the second
question is, “Is this person the right person for me,
and have we prayed about it to seek God’s will?”
Brown:
All right, and Shelda, would you agree with that?
Abdur-Razzaq:
Yeah, I’ll piggyback what Reverend Anderson is saying.
I think one of the things that couples should understand is,
“What am I bringing to the table?” Oftentimes
I have someone who will come in, and they’ll say, “I’m
bringing 50% of a relationship.” I always encourage
my couples to really work toward wholeness for themselves.
I think that’s important—that you come whole,
that you look at all the issues that you present.
Brown:
And Deria, from a legal perspective, what would you say
are the two most important things that couples should think
or should know about each other?
Hayes:
I think couples should definitely talk about their expectations
of marriage, what their roles and responsibilities will be
in the household, and to have a good dialogue about that,
and get those issues on the table.
Brown:
Well, Reverend Anderson, you said that people should think
about whether or not they personally are ready. What does
that mean?
Anderson:
Like I said, it’s a complex question. To know that
you’re ready for marriage first of all means that you
have already prayed and said, “Okay, God, I am ready
to spend a relationship with someone in the confines of marriage,”
which means that I’ve already worked out my own personal
issues of some of those struggles. Because most of the time
my family of origin sets for us some precedents on our perceptions
of marriage, and sometimes those perceptions are not realistic
or not universal for everyone. And so we have to ask ourselves
the question, “Have I worked out my own little personal
issues?” Someone said that all of us have issues, but
some of us have volumes. And I think that’s something
that must be dealt with, and when we deal with that, it helps
us to get a better understanding of if I’m personally
ready, and if this person is the right one for me.
Brown:
Gotcha. Shelda, you spoke about some of these issues, or you
alluded to these issues as well; what sort of things does
someone need to bring—be able to bring—to the
table. You talked about being whole. How does all that fit
in?
Abdur-Razzaq:
Well, basically looking at, as the Reverend has said, in terms
of family of origin, what kinds of things, in terms of your
communication skills, from the family of origin—are
you from a family where the communication was closed or open?
Looking at financial situations, how willing—are you
ready to be even committed to a relationship? Because that
also means that you are willing to take an acceptance of some
responsibility for your choices.
Brown:
And just to piggyback off of what Reverend Anderson said about
someone being spiritually ready and praying and asking God—there’s
a lot of people that don’t believe in God and don’t
pray. What would you say to those people as they consider
getting married?
Abdur-Razzaq:
I think that would be an issue that they would have to consider.
Is that someone that they would want to spend the rest of
their life with, if they have issues or differences in terms
of their spirituality or religion? So they also have to know
whether that’s something that they can accept.
Brown:
Gotcha. Why is it—it seems that a lot of couples
don’t ask the questions that they need to ask before
they get married, and they have these perceptions of what
it’s going to be. Why do you think that is? I mean,
where do we get these ideas of what marriage is, and why don’t
we ask the relevant questions? Deria, why don’t you
start?
Hayes:
I think because a lot of people don’t want to face
the tough and difficult questions prior to—they don’t
want that to trump the love and the aura of getting married
and the big ceremony. But you have to face the tough questions,
and that is: “How are we going to raise our children?
How are we going to divide financial obligations? How are
we going to acquire property?” And those are tough questions,
and sometimes we disagree, but that’s okay, but you
just want to have a plan. You want to have a goal, and you
want to put those issues on the table and have some—reach
a common consensus on it, and decision.
Brown:
Let me ask you, as a lawyer, I know that you—I’m
sure that you’ve had many instances where you’ve
dealt with couples who—maybe they did or maybe they
didn’t think about these issues prior to getting married.
But give us a sense of what sort of painful issues will come
up if you don’t address these issues that we’ve
been talking about at the onset of a marriage.
Hayes:
Well, obviously, you will be dealing with the failure
of a marriage. And when that happens, a lot of people deal
with a lot of emotion. They’re less likely to act reasonably
or rationally, because they’re caught up in the emotion
of a failed marriage. So I would say that—I’m
sorry, could you repeat…
Brown:
Well, just what sort of issues are people going to deal
with?
Hayes:
They’re going to deal with, one, separating. They’re
going to have to deal with the division of their marital property.
They’re going to have to deal with, if they have children,
who will the children be raised with? If they’re living
separately, who is going to be financially responsible for
the children in terms of child support and that type of thing?
And that’s primarily the larger issues. And there may
come up support for the spouse—spousal support and alimony.
Brown:
Well, we’re going to get back to that issue. Shelda
and Reverend Anderson, in your professions, do you find that
you counsel more people who are about to get married or more
people who are heading for divorce court? And whichever the
case is, why is it more—one more than the other, or
is it equal? Reverend Anderson, why don’t you start?
Anderson:
I don’t know, I would probably say 50/50. But most of
the time, before I even get a chance to talk with a couple,
they’ve already decided, “This is not going to
work.” They’ve already started taking some type
of measure to dissolve the marriage. But one of the things
I always talk to couples about before they get married is
that if you have an inkling or an idea that you think you
want to marry this person, let’s start talking now,
in case there are some issues that we need to work out. Let’s
work them out as we go forward, as opposed to before the problems
crop up. I’ve noticed that most people spend the majority
of their time planning for the wedding day and not for the
marriage, and I think that’s where it really occurs.
We’ll put thousands of dollars into the actual celebration
and wanting everything to be perfect, but we don’t work
on creating a perfect environment for a relationship to be
nurturing and to be growing just as it should.
Brown:
All right. And Shelda, I’ve heard that finances,
communication, and perhaps intimacy are three items that couples
deal with in marriage, and that they may not really think
about before marriage that often crop up and may actually
cause divorce. Is that something that you’ve found in
your profession?
Abdur-Razzaq:
Yes, generally. And the answer to your first question was,
for me, most of my clientele are those who are heading toward
divorce. And those are the issues—issues around finance,
intimacy, interference from in-laws or outside relatives,
and finances. So just coming to terms with—and communication,
also, because they’ll say, “Well, there is generally
a lack of communication or no communication.” And what
I generally find is, prior to the marriage, these things may
have existed, but as Deria was saying, it was not discussed.
And so, communication is not a new thing. It’s just
now that the individual is changing, they’re looking
at their partner in a different way.
Brown:
Well, let’s talk about finance, because as I understand
it this is one of the big hot topics, and a lot of people
end up in divorce court because of it. Deria, when you—when
we talk about couples sitting down and discussing financial
matters, are we talking about bringing out our checkbooks,
pulling out tax statements—I mean, just laying it all
on the line? Or are we just simply saying, “This is
how much I owe, this is how much I make.” What kind
of issues are we discussing?
Hayes:
I would think it would go according to the couple. If
one party has a substantial amount of assets, properties,
has a business, then you might want to discuss in detail exactly
what those properties are and identify those assets. And liabilities—your
bills—to know what your partner actually owes, and what’s
your responsibility after the marriage in the payment of those
debts?
Brown:
Well, do you have to talk about—I mean do you need
to…
Hayes:
You need to talk about it. I mean, a lot of people don’t
like talking about money. They don’t like talking about
bills. But you need to know what your spouse, prior to marriage,
is responsible for. And when you pool in your funds together,
what debts you’re going to be responsible for after
marriage. I think that’s a very important conversation,
because it could be $1,000, but it could be $10,000. And people
need to get down to the numbers and say what they’re
responsible for, what they’re going to, you know—if
you want to create more debt, how much that’s going
to be, and who, ultimately, is going to be responsible for
it. Because a lot of people may get a credit card, but it’s
in your name only. But if it’s during the marriage,
it’s a marital debt, and a lot of people don’t
understand that.
Brown:
Let me deal with another aspect of finances. I do want
to get into what sort of laws there are in North Carolina
that deal specifically with marriage and divorce. If a couple
gets divorced, and they have children, who is responsible
for paying alimony and for paying child support? Is it always
the man, or if the woman makes more, how does that work?
Hayes:
No, it’s not gender-specific at all. When people
separate, there’s normally a person that has primary
physical custody, is what we call it. That is, where the child
lives, pretty much, Monday through Friday on a daily basis.
And then the other party is likely to be entitled to visitation,
absent there being any physical abuse or sexual abuse or parental
misconduct. But the non-custodial party would be responsible
for paying child support, and it’s according to the
combined incomes of the parties, and a ratio of that child
support obligation. So it’s not necessarily 50/50. It
depends on the disparity of the incomes. But if you made—if
both parties made the same amount, it would come out 50/50.
Brown:
Let’s talk about kids. In a lot of instances, children
are already present. Couples are dating, and one or both of
them have children from other relationships. Shelda and Reverend
Anderson, I’d like for you to address this as well.
What do you say to someone who—to a couple that’s
about to get married, or thinking about getting married, and
there are kids involved? Especially if they are young children,
is there any specific advice that you would give them?
Abdur-Razzaq:
Well, I usually have the couple to sit down with the children
to talk about this new family. Because that also becomes an
issue—blended families. And you find in a lot of step-parenting,
they’re trying to find out, “How do we blend this
family? How do we come together and really nurture one another?”
So we really sit down and have them to really talk with the
children as well, and also ironing out any issues around parenting.
What are their parenting skills? And usually from there, whether
or not they may need to also go into some type of counseling
with the children to see if the children have a relationship
with that outside parent, and also whether or not there are
some issues in terms of conflicting relationships with those
custodial parents, if you’re not the custodial parent.
Brown:
Okay. Reverend Anderson, anything you would add to that?
Anderson:
I would say “ditto.” It includes all of that.
One more thing I would probably want to throw in goes back
to what you were saying before about financial obligations.
As we know, parents are present, and then there are grandparents.
Sometimes there has been an arrangement with the other parts
of the family to say that, “Well, we’re going
to all share in taking care of Mom or Dad.” And I think
that has to be considered as well, because that’s a
financial obligation that, a lot of times, you don’t
talk about, but…
Brown:
You’re talking about older parents?
Anderson:
Older parents. Because we know our parents are still there.
And, you know, the parents are sometimes caught in the middle,
which deals with that whole idea of how are you going to manage
the relationship with the children? Because the children need
to know grandparents on both sides.
Brown:
Gotcha. Let’s move on to some other issues. Actually,
Deria, just kind of set the stage for us in North Carolina—what
sort of rules are there, specifically, for married couples?
What I’m thinking about are—do husbands and wives
have automatic rights that perhaps we don’t know about
that we need to know about? Are there things that—if
someone, like you were talking about, has a business or owns
a house and the person they’re marrying doesn’t
own any sort of property or other assets—how does that
work?
Hayes:
In North Carolina, there are not too many automatic rights,
so to speak. Once you’re married, from the date of marriage,
any type of property that is acquired during the course of
marriage is primarily deemed as marital property. There are
some exceptions. For instance, if someone were to inherit
some money through a will, that property would be separate
property. If somebody was to get an award through a personal
injury case, that money is considered separate. But on the
whole, everything is considered marital. If a couple separates
or divorces, either party has the right to look toward child
support or child custody if they have children. If they don’t,
they are entitled to an equal division of their marital property.
Some parties may be eligible for post-separation support or
alimony. But I wouldn’t say that there was anything
automatic. If a couple is looking toward divorce, they have
to be living separate and apart with one party having the
intent to remain separate and apart for one year. So there
is a waiting period, and that is automatic. You can’t
bypass that at all. You have to wait.
Brown:
Reverend Anderson, let me ask you this. I think a lot
of people assume that the Church discourages divorce, so when
you have a couple coming into see you that seems to be on
their way towards divorce court, what do you say to them as
a minister?
Anderson:
I would say that the Church encourages marriage. I don’t
know about saying “discourage divorce,” because
there are some situations that do occur that the two parties
might need to part.
Brown:
What kind of situations are you talking about?
Anderson:
Anytime you deal with any type of physical abuse or things
of that nature. But one of the things we try to do in the
Church is to try and find out if there is a way that the relationship
can improve, if at all possible. The way I can handle that
is, I can do a lot of things to help couples, but there are
some things that are out of my scope, and I refer them to
people who are more skilled in that area. But we try to create
an environment in the home to do whatever the Church can,
whatever the Christian community can to help them to stay
together if at all possible. But I would never say that the
Church says, “Divorce is absolute…” One
of the things that, you know, we say sometimes might need
to occur… You can find biblical credence that talked
about where Moses said it was proper to issue a law of divorce.
So we know it is a known fact. It is a known case, and we
need to accept all of biblical history, not just the parts
that we’d like to focus on.
Brown:
Shelda, let’s talk about right before a couple gets
married. If someone in that relationship decides that it isn’t
going to work, how do you council them to tactfully separate
themselves from that relationship.
Abdur-Razzaq:
One of the things that I say to couples, either in pre-marital,
or if they are coming for couples counseling, is that this
counseling is not necessarily going to reconcile the relationship
if you are talking about the possibility of divorce or if
you are talking about getting married. You may actually find
some things that may cause you to rethink whether or not you
should choose to get married. If that is the case—and
I did have one instance where the couple did get married,
but not as soon as they had intended. There were some things
that they found that they needed to work on. I think that
that is a good thing, because that shows that they are willing
to be vulnerable at that point, to take the risk of the time
spent apart, to strengthen what needs to be strengthened.
That shows in the long run that that marriage will be a healthy
marriage.
Brown:
Let me piggyback on that and have you tell me if you think
that pre-marital counseling is absolutely necessary?
Abdur-Razzaq:
I would strongly recommend it, because you really have an
opportunity to look at your strengths, and identify what weaknesses
there are in the relationship. I always say to couples, “We
build from our strengths.” If you aren’t aware
of what they are, then when you run into crossroads and challenges,
you may not know how to overcome them. I use the analogy of
a car or a house. When you go to purchase a home, you have
someone inspect it. With the car, there is maintenance that
you do, so I say, “Come in and maintain your relationship.”
So, I really encourage the pre-marital counseling.
Brown:
Alright, I want to talk about prenuptials, because Deria,
you were saying before we started taping that a lot of black
people don’t think about prenuptial agreements. I think
we do have a bit of a phobia of them. What would you say to
our viewers to help them consider prenuptials. First of all,
what are they?
Hayes:
Prenuptials are basically a written agreement that specifies
or defines what you are going to do with certain property.
It can be as detailed as outlining what some of the expectations
are for household responsibilities and child rearing. You
can get very particular. Fortunately, provisions such as,
“You’re going to stay at 125 pounds” are
not applicable. You can’t have those type of things,
but you can definitely tackle some of the tougher issues.
There are some strong candidates for premarital agreements.
I think that people who have children from a prior marriage
or a previous relationship should enter into an agreement,
just so the parameters of how you are going to raise those
children are clear. People who have large estates or a significant
amount of income should enter into an agreement. People who
have a large disparity in income, where one person makes a
lot more than the other party, or people who expect to receive
a large sum of money in the future, are good candidates.
Brown:
What about people who have lived together for a number
of years?
Hayes:
Absolutely. I think they are great candidates, because
they have already acquired some property together, and most
likely it’s separate property. You can go ahead and
address how you would like that property to be classified,
and put that in your premarital agreement. That will circumvent
anything that a court may want to do in the event that the
relationship ends in divorce.
Brown:
We are quickly running out of time, but Reverend Anderson,
I wanted to ask you this: marriage, from my limited experience,
is, in part, adjusting to living with someone else. So I’m
wondering if you would ever counsel someone to live together?
Counsel a couple to live together so that they can get that
practice in ahead of time? And Shelda, I’d like you
to respond to that as well.
Anderson:
Wow, that’s a tough question. I think in most things
it’s all right to have a test drive, but I think in
marriage, it’s a commitment. Someone said it’s
an unconditional compromise to an imperfect person, which
means that we’ve got to make concessions. And I think
that if we enter into a relationship knowing that we have
an immediate out, or a door that we can step out of at any
time, I don’t think that helps or creates the environment
that says, “We’re going to work through this,
whatever the issues may be.” So I would not endorse
living together. I don’t think we can find any type
of biblical credence to say that should be the case.
Brown:
Thank you. And Shelda, from a non-spiritual perspective,
I hear everything that Reverend Anderson is saying, but do
you feel that there is some benefit to having people live
together, or encouraging that?
Abdur-Razzaq:
I don’t know if I would take the status of encouragement
toward it, but I do have couples that cohabitate, and some
of them find that they get to know their partner better, because
they have the opportunity to live with them. But as the Reverend
was saying, it can also be an open door to the decision that,
“I don’t want to commit.” And we sometimes
find couples that have been together for years, and they say,
“We’ll get married next year, or we’ll get
married the year after that.” There is never the opportunity
to wed because they are moving along without a wedding.
Brown:
Well, you guys, we have run out of time, believe it or not.
I’d like to thank Reverend Paul Anderson, Shelda Abdur-Razzaq,
and Deria Phillips Hayes for their expertise on tonight’s
program. If you’d like to learn more on the work of
our guests, or want more hints on what you need to consider
before getting married, please visit the Black Issues Forum
website at www.unctv.org/bif.
We would also like to hear your feedback and suggestions,
so send us an email. Or, you can call the BIF line at 919-549-7167.
Be sure to join Black Issues Forum each Friday night
at 9:30 p.m. I’m Natalie Bullock-Brown, reminding you
to be encouraged, no matter what. Have a good night.
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