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Episode #1818
UNC Integration 50th Anniversary
Brown: Natalie Bullock Brown,
moderator
Daye: Charles E. Daye, professor, UNC School of Law
Hubbard: Edith Hubbard, UNC-CH Alumna
From UNC Pathfinders:
Narrator: Charles Daye
Friday: William Friday, President Emeritus, UNC-CH
McKissick: Floyd McKissick, Jr.
Scott: Charlie Scott, former athlete, UNC-CH,’70
Brown:
Walk on the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill’s
campus, and you’ll see students from all kinds of racial
backgrounds, including a healthy African-American presence.
We’ll celebrate the 50th anniversary of black
students at UNC tonight on Black Issues Forum.
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Voiceover:
This program was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV
from viewers like you. Thank you.
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Brown:
Good evening, everyone. I’m Natalie Bullock Brown. Thanks
for joining us. The University of North Carolina at Chapel
Hill has been in existence since the cornerstone for the school
was laid in 1793. Since that time, African-Americans have
played a significant role in the development of the University.
They helped lay the very foundations of the school and built
some of its most revered buildings. From the beginning, despite
their important role in the University’s growth, African-Americans
were always regarded as second-class citizens in the world
beyond the University, as well as on campus. It wasn’t
until 1951, nearly 200 years after the University was first
built, that African-Americans were first allowed to enroll
at UNC. In the five decades since the first black student
received a degree from the school, scores of African-Americans
have graduated from the University, and have gone on to make
great and celebrated achievements. Tonight, we pay tribute
to the 50th anniversary of black students on UNC’s
campus—a milestone that was feted last fall at UNC,
and that we will discuss with our panel of guests in a moment.
But first, a lesson on the early history of UNC’s relationship
with black students, excerpted from a piece called UNC
Pathfinders, created by producer Dwayne Ballen.
Narrator:
The winds of long-awaited change that were blowing nationally
reached Chapel Hill in the summer of 1951. That year, as a
result of litigation challenging racial discrimination, Harvey
Beech, James Lassiter, Kenneth Lee, Floyd McKissick, and James
Walker entered the University’s law school. Future Supreme
Court Justice Thurgood Marshall was one of the leading civil
rights lawyers involved in the litigation.
Friday:
I think sometimes people sometimes forget how massive
this was in America itself, and still is in some areas. But
I’m very proud of the fact that our people got together.
We started out together and said, “We’re going
to make this work, and we’re going to set the example
for the country to see.”
Narrator:
The five new students were acutely aware that having earned
entry didn’t necessarily mean that they were welcome.
McKissick:
From what I gather, they were not really welcome at all.
I mean, they were black folks there that were, for all practical
purposes, at that point in time—most of the student
body would refer to them as “niggers who didn’t
belong.” And they were treated like niggers who didn’t
belong, but nevertheless, they made the best of that experience.
They survived it and they did well.
Narrator:
McKissick, who had already earned his law degree at North
Carolina College in Durham, studied just one summer session
at the University before going on to national prominence as
a civil rights leader. Harvey Beech and Kenneth Lee, of the
inaugural students, would become the first African-Americans
to earn their diplomas from Chapel Hill, graduating from the
School of Law in June, 1952. James Walker graduated in August
of 1952. 10 years later, Julius Chambers, destined to become
a noted civil rights attorney and educator, graduated number
one in his law class, and was the first black to become editor
of the prestigious North Carolina Law Review. The racial
barriers at the medical school were to be broken down by Oscar
Diggs, who in 1955 emerged from Carolina as its first African-American
doctor of medicine. Later that fall, John Brandon, and brothers
LeRoy and Ralph Frasier, arrived as the University’s
first African-American undergraduates. After that, a slow
but steady stream of blacks began to attend the University.
Hubbard:
What was interesting is, in a group situation, nobody
wanted to play with you. But on a one on one, people were
willing to talk to you, but not if their friends had to deal
with it. There was a lot of social pressure, I think, on the
other students not to socialize with that person.
Scott:
I can’t say honestly that I had the same enjoyment
of school life that any other individual had that went through
North Carolina at the time. Because I just could not do all
the things that they did. I went to class with everyone, but
when class was over, I went to basketball practice, and when
basketball practice was over, I had to do something by myself.
If I would have been with the other players on the team, or
any other individuals, they would have had to change their
lifestyle in order for me to be with them.
Narrator:
In the fall of 1966, Carolina underwent another significant
change when Hortense McClinton joined the School of Social
Work, as the University’s first black faculty member.
Brown:
Here tonight, ready to share thoughts on and experiences
with the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, are
my two distinguished guests. First is Charles Daye, professor
of law at the UNC Law School, and also the narrator of the
piece you just saw. And Edith Hubbard, an alumna of UNC and
current associate director there for the Office of Sponsored
Research. Welcome to Black Issues Forum.
Daye:
Thank you.
Hubbard:
Thank you.
Brown:
Professor Daye, I’d like to start out with you.
I know you have researched the law school’s history,
and have written extensively about when the school first integrated—when
UNC did. What was going on at UNC, or even in the world in
general, to finally allow black students to enroll at the
University?
Daye:
Well, I did some work trying to examine exactly what was
happening. The movement at North Carolina was really part
of a national strategy, and the litigation didn’t start
in North Carolina, but started in Texas and Missouri. It came
to North Carolina by the late 1940s and early 1950s. It was
then that the lawsuit involving the main plaintiff, Floyd
McKissick, was filed.
Brown:
We just heard about the four first students.
Daye:
Right.
Brown:
Is there anything unique about their enrollment at the
University?
Daye:
The thing that happened—the early litigation was
really trying to enforce separate but equal, if you can believe
that. The claim was that the education available at North
Carolina College at the time was not the equivalent of the
education available at the University of North Carolina. The
legal issues had to do with whether you could get the same
the education at Central—what is now Central—that
you could get at Chapel Hill. That was the strategy, to prove
that Chapel Hill had a superior legal education because of
finances, because of the size of the faculty, because of the
diversity of the student body, and because of the resources.
Brown:
Now, Edith Hubbard, I want to bring you in here a little
bit. At the time of this litigation and the eventual enrollment
of these first four students, were you in North Carolina?
And did you hear about what was going on? What was the general
climate like?
Hubbard:
Absolutely. I lived in Durham County, so Chapel Hill and
Durham are my home. We were a part of that. We were a part
of the early civil rights movement. In high school, we participated
in the marches and the sit-in demonstrations. We were very
much a part of it.
Brown:
Were you aware of what was about to take place at North
Carolina, at UNC? And what were people saying? Were people
ready for this sort of change at the University? Were both
blacks and whites ready?
Hubbard:
I wasn’t a part of the university community, but
of the Chapel Hill community at large. I think, for the most
part, people just didn’t think it would happen. They
thought it would go away and it wouldn’t happen.
Brown:
I’m wondering why, given the climate—can we
say that this would not have happened without the litigation?
Professor Daye, what do you think?
Daye:
One can only speculate what would have been “if…”
I think what was happening was the confluence of two events.
The beginning of the civil rights movement at large was really
being fueled by the litigation that was attacking segregation.
The two came together in this case with the litigation that
brought about the integration of the University and the first
attendance of the students. It was almost coinciding with
the bigger movement of civil rights that got underway in the
later part of the ‘50s and the early ‘60s and
so on. These were two movements really working together.
Brown:
It seems as though something was inevitable. It was inevitable
that it would happen at UNC. Mrs. Hubbard, you came to the
school in the early ’60s to study the social sciences.
What was your reception like on campus?
Daye:
Chilly. I came as a junior transfer student from Bennett
College in Greensboro, and the environment at Bennett was
warm and loving. I was very, very involved, and very much
a part of that campus and that campus life. When I came to
Carolina, it was almost like going to a foreign country where
you didn’t speak the language and you stood out. Obviously,
I stood out. It was difficult. It was not a friendly reception.
Brown:
Why did you leave Bennett to go to UNC? You said you were
a junior transfer?
Daye:
That’s right, a junior transfer student.
Brown:
So, why leave in the middle of your career at Bennett?
Daye:
I guess you think the grass is greener. I didn’t
do it by design. It was just one of those things that happened.
I applied and I got in. I don’t think anybody was more
surprised than me when I got in, but it was not something
I had planned.
Brown:
Professor Daye, can you talk a little about what, if anything,
people should know about the early years of blacks on campus
that may not be readily apparent to us?
Daye:
Well, you know, I interviewed many of the participants
in the early movement, and I think the typical things one
would expect, one would find. Some hostility on the part of
others who thought that blacks shouldn’t be there. But
I think, to its everlasting credit—at least to the Law
School and, I think, more broadly—there were always
individuals who would come forward to make a difference. And
I know Harvey Beech tells the story of a student who didn’t
want to march beside him at graduation. Well, that student’s
refusal provided the opportunity for another white student
to say that he would march. There were instances of hostility,
but there were also instances that compensated for the hostility.
Brown:
Great. Well, we’re going to come back to visit this
discussion, but we are going to another excerpt from Dwayne
Ballen’s UNC Pathfinders. And despite the initial
gains made by African-Americans on UNC’s campus, many
blacks felt, and still feel, that the school had a long way
to go in creating an environment of equality and respect for
all students. The political fervor and uproar of the late
1960s and ‘70s wasn’t lost at UNC. Many demonstrations
took place on campus as students, black and white, struggled
for justice on and off campus. But as this next excerpt from
UNC Pathfinders indicates, the passing of time and
the accumulation of experiences has caused UNC to emerge as
a leader in race relations and in equal opportunity.
Narrator:
Throughout the ‘70s and ‘80s, the University’s
African-American presence expanded in all areas. Deans and
distinguished professors arrived. Rhodes and Morehead scholarships
were earned. Student body presidents were elected, homecoming
queens were crowned, and NCAA championships were won. The
passion of the African-American student found an outlet in
the Black Student Movement, an organization that, in the early
‘90s, was the force behind the push to have a freestanding
Black Cultural Center. Construction of the Sonja Haynes Stone
Black Cultural Center began in the spring of 2002. African-Americans
have emerged from the shadows at Chapel Hill to take their
hard-earned and rightful place at the University. Carolina’s
black alumni include a congressman, a past chairman of the
Board of Governors, a vice-chairman of the University’s
Board of Trustees, scores of influential civic and business
leaders, and several sports icons. During its two-plus centuries
of existence, the University of North Carolina has been immeasurably
enriched by African-Americans. Without them, it would not
truly be the university of the people.
Brown:
We are back with Edith Hubbard and Charles Daye, talking
about the anniversary of the integration of UNC-Chapel Hill.
I have read in Black Enterprise magazine that UNC at
Chapel Hill is listed as one of the top 10 schools for African-Americans
in the country. In light of what I said and what the piece
seems to indicate—that UNC has emerged as a leader in
race relations and equal opportunity—would we agree?
I mean, especially since you are there now, do you agree with
that? Do you think that it still has some work to do? Professor
Daye, why don’t we start with you?
Daye:
Well, unquestionably, the answer is “yes”
to both questions. Have we made tremendous progress? And do
we have work yet to do? Yes on both questions. But I think
Chapel Hill, and the University in particular, have been instrumental
in giving North Carolina an alternative that some other states
didn’t choose. I think we’ve been blessed to have
leaders who saw a vision of the future that no one at the
time could imagine, in which blacks would be a part of the
University and they would play critical and important roles
in the University and in the state. So, I think there has
been, or course, the travail of trying to get forward movement,
but we have also been fortunate to have people who were making
that happen, who were helping it to happen.
Brown:
What would you add to that, Mrs. Hubbard?
Hubbard:
I would say, yes, absolutely. My own children have graduated
from the University, and their experiences have been diametrically
opposite of mine. So that is a good thing. I continually see
people, at the University, of goodwill. The climate is changing,
but I would also agree that there is so much more to do, particularly
in the area of affirmative action and employment practices.
It is so wonderful to see so many black students, Indian students,
African students, Asian students on campus, and I guess if
I could go back, I would want that experience for myself.
I now see so many wonderful changes, but I also see that there
is quite a bit of work still to do. I think I’m really
pleased to see that many in leadership positions at Carolina
are taking on that banner.
Brown:
All of the things that you both have mentioned, in terms
of strides that the University has made, made me think about
the debate over the Sonja Haynes Stone Black Cultural Center,
and all of the fervor that went with that. I’m wondering,
is the purpose of a Black Cultural Center sort of to ensure
that these advancements on campus are made on behalf of African-American
students? Is it needed?
Daye:
I was fortunate enough to have personally known Sonja
Haynes Stone, for whom the Black Cultural Center is named.
She had come to the University a couple of years after I got
there. I understood when she came that she was charged to
work toward the integration of the study of African-American
life and Africa into a well-regarded university. And to focus
on the breadth of issues that the culture of African-Americans
and the culture of Africa have contributed in the world, and
in North Carolina in particular. I don’t think that
the Black Cultural Center was ever conceived as a place for
black people. It was a place of education for all people,
including whites and everybody who would come. I don’t
think it was ever designed to be just a thing for blacks.
It wasn’t supposed to be a black student center or anything
of that sort. I served to work on the recruitment of the current
director, and I know that it has the breadth. It is an educational
enterprise, and it’s welcoming of everyone.
Brown:
Mrs. Hubbard, was there any talk about a black student
movement, a black cultural center, when you were on campus?
Hubbard:
We had the Black Student Movement on campus, which was
tied in some part to the war protest. So yes, very early on
there was a black student organization movement on campus.
There was a participation of a good many white students on
campus who wanted diversity, who wanted equality. So that
feeling has been on the campus for a very, very long time.
But I think it’s so important to remind people that
blacks have a very strong, fascinating culture, and we want
to share that culture. So again, the cultural center was never
meant to isolate, but to share and bring together. And that
is a goal that should be everybody’s goal. We so much
want, and will be, a part of North Carolina’s history,
of the University’s history. I think that that’s
the focus that those of us who are here should take.
Brown:
Thank you. Prior to the breaking of ground to mount the
Sonja Haynes Black Cultural Center on UNC’s campus in
the spring of 2002, there was much public debate about whether
or not black students needed, or even deserved, their own
center. For African-Americans the issue was clear. Black culture
needed a place where it could be protected and celebrated
and it deserved a spot on campus. Listen as Dr. Archie Ervin,
Director of Minority Affairs and a graduate student at UNC
in the early ‘80s, remembers the passionate movement
on campus to build the Black Cultural Center.
Ervin:
While I didn’t ever really see a movement, a counter
movement, formed by any student organization, there was always
active discussion in The Daily Tarheel and other
media over the relevance of this. And the debate usually boiled
down to whether or not a black cultural center was something
that was consistent with the academic enterprise. Whether
or not it would be a fortress of segregation and isolation.
So it did polarize to a certain extent. I think it exhibited
itself in the Student Congress during that period of time.
There were debates among students about the viability of the
concept, but there never was really the kind of intense opposition
that became visible, but it was certainly there. It certainly
was.
Brown:
Let’s talk about affirmative action. Let’s
take this a little further. We all know that currently there
is a lot of talk about whether or not the University of Michigan,
for example, is constitutionally… “correct,”
I guess we could say—to use affirmative action as a
way to identify candidates for enrollment at the school. Let’s
talk about affirmative action in terms of UNC. I mean, we’ve
come 50 years. How does affirmative action affect the school,
affect the University? Mrs. Hubbard, if you’d like to
start—is it still needed?
Hubbard:
I think absolutely. To get where we are with our enrollment
of a diverse student population, you have to make some concerted
efforts. This is not a level playing field, and anyone who
believes that it is, I think, is seriously deluded. It is
not a level playing field. Black students who want to come
to the University should have an opportunity to learn about
the University. And still, even in 2003, the University of
North Carolina is not a part of every family’s history.
It’s just not. And we need opportunities afforded to
students who can ill-afford to come—in the form of scholarships,
in the form of information, and in the form of all kinds of
preparatory kinds of things. So yes, it’s absolutely
needed.
Brown:
Professor Daye, we are quickly running out of time, but
I want to give you the last word. What would you say about
affirmative action?
Daye:
I would entirely agree that affirmative action is still
needed. The question is, exactly what is affirmative action?
There is a little bit of a dichotomy between affirmative action
as preference and whether we should have merit. And some people
quote Dr. King as saying that he hopes that his children can
be judged “by the content of their character, rather
than the color of their skin.” And some people say that
that refutes the urge to have affirmative action. Well, I
don’t think Dr. King thought that the measure of a person’s
character was determined by her SAT score. So I think that
if a student had overcome prejudice, if a student had overcome
barriers, if a student had overcome poverty, if a student
had experienced discrimination and not been deterred—that
goes to merit, and the merit that that student should have
considered when she or he is applying to the University or
the Law School. This is a complicated measure that we are
dealing with, and it sometimes is more complicated because
universities have taken an easy way out, and they have used
kind of a litmus test. But those who review applications carefully,
who look at individual traits, and who do not just admit somebody
because they are black—indeed, I never heard of a university
that admitted a student because he or she was black. I have
heard of a university that admitted a student because he or
she was smart, and then gave a little plus, because as a black
person they might have had experiences that would be enriching
for the entire campus.
Brown:
There is so much we could talk about on this issue, but we
are running—well, we have actually run out of time.
I’d like to thank Professor Charles Daye and Mrs. Edith
Hubbard for sharing with us tonight. Thank you so much. If
you’d like to learn more about the work of our guests,
or about the history of black students at the University of
North Carolina at Chapel Hill, please visit the Black Issues
Forum website at www.unctv.org/bif.
We would also like to hear your feedback and suggestions,
so send us an email. Or you can call the BIF line at 919-549-7167.
Be sure to join Black Issues Forum each Friday night
at 9:30 p.m. I’m Natalie Bullock Brown, reminding you
to be encouraged, no matter what. Have a good night.
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Voiceover:
This program was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV
from viewers like you. Thank you.
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