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Episode
#1901
Matters of Race
Brown: Natalie Bullock Brown,
host
Valadez: John Valadez, director and producer of “The
Divide”
Campbell: Malinda Campbell, associate producer of “The
Divide”
Voiceover:
In
debates about race today, are we questioning how race is defined
or how it’s lived? Those questions are at the heart
of the provocative PBS documentary series Matters of Race,
which aired recently on UNC-TV. We’ll talk with two
members of the documentary’s production team for behind-the-scenes
insight into what they learned about race in the North Carolina
town of Siler City. That’s next on Black Issues Forum.
Voiceover:
This program was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV
from viewers like you. Thank you.
[THEME
MUSIC]
Brown:
Good evening and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I’m
Natalie Bullock Brown. Tonight we’ll get an inside look
at the thinking behind the provocative PBS series Matters
of Race that aired on UNC-TV. This documentary by ROJA
Productions and executive producer Orlando Bagwell boldly
examines the people, modern-day experiences, social structures
and institutions that not only define race, but direct how
we live it here in America. Matters of Race is a three-part
series. The first part, entitled “The Divide,”
focuses on racial dynamics right here in North Carolina. It
was filed in Chatham County’s Siler City, where increasing
numbers of immigrants from Mexico and Central America are
calling North Carolina home. Over the next half-hour we’ll
meet and talk to two members of the creative team behind this
segment and share a few clips. Let’s have a look at
some of the first hour from Matters of Race: “The
Divide.”
[BEGIN
DOCUMENTARY EXCERPT]
M:
There were a lot of established people that have been
in the community for a long time, that they saw these people
coming in as basically taking away things in the community
that they had worked hard for and paid for, and then, all
of a sudden, we were giving them away. They were paying the
county taxes and they thought, “Well, I’m not
getting any of these services. Why should someone that’s
not even born in my city or my country be getting all these
free services?”
M:
I saw an article which called Siler City “Little
Mexico.” As soon as I saw that, I knew that we needed
to organize a demonstration and just get it out before the
public, and some of my Siler City friends got permits to stage
a rally, and just before the rally—about three days
before—they discovered that David Duke was coming to
town.
Duke:
You have a right for the government to come in this community,
go in those factories, and if those Mexicans are here illegally,
they need to be shipped back home, ladies and gentlemen. This
massive immigration in this country is changing the face of
this community; it’s changing the face of America, and
it will transform America into something alien.
F:
The thought that I could live in Chatham County and witness
someone extending their invitation to a former Klansman, and
he could come here and be received by some of the people who
live in this county with me is unconscionable.
[END DOCUMENTARY
EXCERPT]
Brown:
I’d like to introduce from the production team from
Matters of Race, which is a four-part series: John
Valadez, who directed this segment, once again, entitled “The
Divide,” and Malinda Campbell, the associate producer
for “The Divide.” Welcome to both of you to Black
Issues Forum.
Valadez:
Thank you.
Campbell:
Thank you.
Brown:
Now, let’s start off by talking about the series
in general. What is at the heart of the series? What’s
the message? John, why don’t you start?
Valadez:
Well, I guess that race is something that dramatically
affects the lives of every American. It’s something
that shapes and molds our fundamental identity. It’s
something that is really a part of who we are. And I would
say also that race is a myth; it’s an illusion; it’s
something that human beings have created, and that, ultimately,
it’s about power.
Brown:
Malinda, in your research and work on “The Divide”
in particular, how did this overall, overarching message play
out in this particular segment?
Campbell:
Well, I think what’s interesting about the overall
point of the series is that as we researched this specific
town we found that these issues are everywhere, and something
that came to me, personally, being there, and also researching
the philosophical and political sides of these issues, was
the fundamental paradox about, on the one hand, the reality
that people live, the way race is lived, and the way lives
are lived in America, and the philosophical and political,
more esoteric—the rhetoric of race—and that I
think that paradox was something that I continue to uncover
daily, but certainly when we were researching the film that
came up.
Brown:
Well, John, tell me—why Siler City? I’m sure
North Carolinians are going to be interested to know how did
you find this little town in Chatham County, in our state,
and what about it was compelling?
Valadez:
Well, a couple of things. I think we need to sort of set
things in context. The first thing, I think, to acknowledge
is that we live in a particularly poignant moment in American
history. This is the time where we’re seeing the largest
immigration into this country in the history of the Republic.
Some 32 million people have come to the United States in the
last 10, 15 years or so, and by 2050 one out of every five
people in this country is going to be Latino. So we’re
seeing that white people in the future are not going to be
a majority in this country. They’re already not a majority
in California, and they’re not going to be a majority
in North Carolina. We’re seeing a fundamental shift
in the identity of this country. Now, in the past immigrants
have usually come to the cities and to the coasts, but what
we’re seeing now is we’re seeing immigrants coming
to America’s heartland and transforming that—small,
rural villages in Pennsylvania and Oklahoma and Kansas and
Alabama and North Carolina. And so this little town, it’s
not unique. It’s unique because the people who live
there—it’s their town, but it’s really a
phenomenon that’s happening all across this country.
So what’s important about Siler City is that it represents
the experience of small villages and towns across the nation.
Brown:
Thank you. Malinda, tell me how is Siler City like other
small cities and towns in other parts of the country, and
how is it different? What’s different about it?
Campbell:
I think what’s similar is that you have immigration
affecting people’s lives on a personal level, on an
institutional level, economic, community level, and that people
have been dealing and not dealing, in a sense, with race for
a long time thus far. I think small towns are experiencing
more than ever, and will continue to do so, a fundamental
shift in not only what I mentioned about institutions, but
also identity. And I think people will be able to relate to
this, no matter where they live. If you live in Chicago or
New York or Los Angeles, even larger cities, I think a lot
of the issues are really at the heart of the film.
Brown:
Well, given the fact that race is such a difficult thing
that we continue to struggle with, John, tell me how easy
or difficult was it to get people to talk about it and talk
openly and honestly, especially in Siler City.
Valadez:
It’s both really hard and really easy. It’s
really hard in the sense that to talk about race is one of
those issues that if you begin a conversation in the wrong
way, you could get punched in the nose, basically, or worse.
It’s easy in the sense that it’s something that
people think about every day. You know, it’s something
that is fundamental in shaping our lives, in creating opportunities
for us, and in limiting who we are. So I think it’s
something that people really want to talk about and it’s
something, more importantly, that they need to talk about.
And the fact that we could go into a small town like Siler
City, not know anybody, no friends there—I think I’d
been to North Carolina once before—and to go and to
be able to meet white folks, black folks, Latinos, and have
them open up and talk and share their experiences really just
says something remarkable about the quality of the people
in that town. I mean, just really great, great folks.
Brown:
Well, that’s very good to hear. We’ve been talking
with producer and director John Valadez and associate producer
Malinda Campbell, who worked together on the PBS documentary
series Matters of Race, about their experiences filming
in Siler City. One story reveals a white principal and his
common use of racial slurs. Here’s what some Siler City
citizens had to say in that portion of the program “The
Divide.”
[BEGIN
DOCUMENTARY EXCERPTS]
M:
[INAUDIBLE]
M:
To hear what he said, to hear the context in which he
was using it—it flowed off his mouth and it articulated
just like this is something he said every day. He was comfortable
with it. There was no apprehensiveness about it. He was like,
“We keep the niggers in our place by calling them ‘nigger.’”
I did it at the last school”—where he was assistant
principal—“and when they get used to me here,
I’m going to do the same thing, and they’ll respond
to me the same way.”
M:
So at that time I was very upset and I did call and I
told my attorney, the county attorney, to make sure that he
relayed to their attorney that I did have a meeting the next
week and I was going to carry this tape. If they weren’t
going to deal with it, I would give it to the governor. And,
lo and behold, on a Friday Mr. Fowler, he resigned and he
was gone that day.
F:
He was allowed to make a graceful exit, to go on to spew
his venom in another county and refer to other children in
the same way. He should not be allowed to teach anymore.
F:
I guess on a gut level, I feel that I want to go down
to Chatham County and say, “Okay, let’s just start
uncovering all this and dealing with it. Let’s just
face all of this garbage and put it on the table. Let’s
acknowledge that there’s hatred, there’s racism,
that some people just hate each other.”
[END DOCUMENTARY
EXCERPT]
Brown:
We were just watching a clip from “The Divide,”
which is in the first hour of a new PBS series called Matters
of Race, and we’re sitting here talking with John
Valadez and Malinda Campbell. Malinda, I want to ask you,
given what we just saw, especially that last bite, how likely
do you think it is that, after viewing this film, people will
be able to sit down and talk honestly and put everything out
on the table and deal with it?
Campbell:
First of all, I think something we realized and have also
experienced ourselves is that it takes a lot of courage to
talk, not only about race, but our personal experience with
race and our personal experience with hatred and confronting
our own issues about talking about this. I hope that when
people see this they won’t only see isolated incidents
of hatred, but that they will see how much courage people
have. And if you see this community and you see how strong
people are and how many unheard voices are now having the
courage to really take these issues to the forefront of their
lives in their community, I hope that people will talk about
it and I hope that it will give them the courage to open up
in the same way.
Brown:
John, were you surprised by this particular story that
we just showed about the principal and the racial slurs he
was using? Any other surprises?
Valadez:
Yes and no. I mean, on the one hand, I’m always
surprised whenever I hear something like this, and especially—you
know, you’re talking about kids. I mean, talk about
vulnerable people who really need to be nurtured and supported
and reinforced in who they are, rather than, you know, tear
them down. I mean, it’s so abusive. So, yeah, it’s
shocking. On the other hand, you know, come on. We know this
stuff goes on all the time; it’s just that people don’t
talk about it. And I think that’s one of the great things
about the folks in Siler City is that—Malinda’s
so right; I mean, to have the courage to talk about some of
this stuff and to realize that some people are going to—you’re
going to say things that people are going to disagree with,
and that people may judge you and that you still have to live
in that same town and you’ve got to work with people
and you’ve got to interact. I mean, it says something
really tremendous about the human spirit and something really
wonderful about the people in that town. So there may be some
terrible things going on, but at the same time there are some
great, great people too. So I don’t know. It is a surprise
and it isn’t, you know?
Brown:
Well, what can be done? I mean, where do we go from here,
after people watch this? What does ROJA, what do you as director
and producer and you as associate producer want people to
now go out and do? Malinda, why don’t you address that?
Campbell:
I want people to start being honest about what their experience
really is. I think that a lot of the rhetoric and conversation
that goes on on a national political level, and to some extent
also in the schools, inhibits people from really talking about
what they feel and what’s happening to them. And, you
know, when you talk about “political correctness,”
for all the good that it has done, I think that often people
can hide under a veneer of a smile or a small inclusion, but,
really, what’s happening underneath is so much more
important, it’s exploding. And the country’s busting
at the seams with the need to talk about this. So that, honestly,
is my true hope—that people will have the courage to
do so.
Brown:
And you, John?
Valadez:
Well, it’s hard to top that; that’s good!
Now, honesty, honesty, honesty—you know, absolutely.
I mean, I would like to see folks using this film as a springboard
to talk to people who they may not talk to. You know, the
film opens up and kind of ends with the woman who comes from
Mexico, and she has to come across the border; she gets lost
for eight days in the Sonora Desert—brutal country,
just terrible hardships—to come to Siler City. And a
lot of folks in Siler City were surprised. I mean, they didn’t
know what this woman had gone through. You know, we see each
other, we interact, and yet it’s more like we live amongst
one another than living with one another. We pass through
each others’ lives, but we don’t engage with one
another.
Brown:
Well, when we are so used to kind of passing each other
in the night, as it were, and not really dealing with each
other and getting to know each other, how do you even begin
to come out of yourself and actually engage with each other
in the way that you’re talking about?
Valadez:
Well, I think the film is a good springboard for that. I mean,
why not have screenings in Siler City, in peoples’ living
rooms, and invite folks to come together? Why not have—you
know, the crisis in the schools is a big part of the film—why
not screen this at the local high school, or the local high
schools—there are three in Chatham County. I would love
to come down there anytime to do a screening with folks, but
in a positive way, not in a way that blames people or makes
them feel bad about having whatever opinion they have, but
in a way that respects different perspectives and talks about
it and bridges these divides, which bisect our lives in million
different ways. And that’s what the film is about—all
these divides, these fissures that not only divide communities,
but fissures that run through our very soul as a community.
Brown:
I’m intrigued to know, just listening to the two
of you talk, how were you changed by working on this and dealing
with this topic in the way that you have, Malinda?
Campbell:
It’s a hard question. I mean, I’m still feeling
the changes. I think that these issues were very important
to me before, especially with immigration and the concept
of being “other” in a nation that’s comfortable
with each other as they are. But I think one of the ways mostly
was realizing that even though you can be very accurate and
see the world and look at these terrible situations and stories
that are happening, there’s also an incredible sense
of hope when you look at what happens to a community when
they actually do come together and listen. And I don’t
mean that just on the surface level; I mean when people are
really looking around at what might the experience be of this
person who’s a newcomer to my town or my city or my
school system. That really changes, fundamentally, I think,
how they then will act and open up themselves. So, if we can
break down the fear about talking about this contentious issue,
I think that’s a wonderful start.
Brown:
John, what about you?
Valadez:
Well, I guess the thing I kind of take away from it is
that everything is a choice. I mean, one of the things we
ask people is, you know, “With Latin immigrants moving
into your town, what is the vision that you have of the future?
What kind of town do you want to have in the 21st
century? Is it just sort of an extension of the segregated
past, is that what you would like to see? Separate communities
that have a shared geography but no sense of common identity—is
that the vision you would to see articulated, or is it something
different?” And I think the thing that I pull away from
this is that it’s about choices. We can have a segregated
society; that’s one choice. We can have more racism;
that’s another choice. We can build this society into
anything we want. The only thing that really limits us is
our imagination. But unless we start talking about what that
vision is, we won’t really know what the choices really
are.
Brown:
Well, John, did you see any change in Siler City in the
people in particular that you interviewed and you came in
contact with as a result of this process of making Matters
of Race?
Valadez:
Any change? Well, I mean, we don’t live there, so
it’s really hard for us to see. I’ll say this
though, because I always wondered—when we were making
the films, we would film people kind of in isolation from
one another. We’d be with the black community or we’d
be with the white community or we’d be with Latinos,
and we’d never, or rarely if ever, saw people interacting.
It was strange. Whether we’re in church or whether we’re
in the classroom or whatever, everything was always so separate.
And we had a screening of people who are in the film, and
it was so great to see people’s reaction and to learn
so much about what the other people were thinking. It’s
like the conversation that communities are having within themselves
are finally—you know, the film is a springboard so that
black folks can hear what white folks are saying and can hear
what Latinos are thinking. It was amazing and it was really
warm. I think people really appreciated each other. Now, maybe
that’s the way it is in Siler City from day to day—I
don’t know. But it was really wonderful, because the
people are wonderful, you know?
Brown:
That’s great. And Malinda, tell me about what should
we take from the fact that we have this sort of—I don’t
know if this is correct to say, but I’ll use it for
lack of a better phrase—a “new” minority
group coming into our cities and our towns. The conversation
about race isn’t just black and white anymore. Talk
a little about that, particularly in relation to “The
Divide.”
Campbell:
Right. I think in a deep sense it never really was just
about black and white. However, not only is it now opening
up everybody’s minds to the fact that there are so many
different types of people here in America, but I think it’s
also focusing our attention on power issues and issues of
minority and majority in general. A lot of what we were talking
about with the hope for the future and this new vision of
a society and everything being a choice—that is also,
I think, to a large extent dependent upon everybody having
access to helping shape that new community. So I think one
of the things that comes to mind is about power and access
to leadership roles, to getting involved, and to having your
voice heard. So I think that’s something that opens
up—we do have a history of limiting race talk to black/white
issues. I think now it’s about those issues and everything
else—indigenous people in this country, all sorts of
groups who have traditionally been out of that discussion.
I hope that we can open it up.
Brown:
Well, it seems like the whole process of making Matters
of Race was—maybe consciously, maybe not consciously,
but it would be appropriate if it was consciously—it
consciously tried to include a lot of different voices. John,
tell me about some of the choices, if you know how ROJA went
about choosing who would be involved in producing and associate
producing this project.
Valadez:
I don’t know, because I was just an employee. So in
terms of who gets hired, that’s beyond my pay grade.
But I can say this—that it was up to the producers to
figure out who was going to be in the film and what the story
is going to be. But I just want to address this black/white
thing. You see, to black people and white people the conversation
has always been about black and white, right? But, you know,
to Latinos it’s never been about black and white. And
to Native Americans it’s never been about black and
white. And to Asians it’s never been about black and
white. And for all these other groups, Latinos in particular—we
have a completely different vision of what race means that
doesn’t even fit into the whole concept of black and
white in any way at all—it has to do with mestizo identity,
which is a whole ‘nother thing. So it’s never
been about black and white; just between black and white people
it has. Now, what was the other question? Oh, how did we bring
in—you see, this is the thing. I wanted to bring in
Eric Lu—you didn’t show a segment of him—into
the film. He’s Chinese. There aren’t really a
lot of Chinese folks living in Siler City, but the interesting
thing is it doesn’t matter, your race or your ethnicity,
the issues are the same. Whether you’re talking about
Chinatown, whether you’re talking about the white suburbs,
whether you’re talking about the ghetto, whether you’re
talking about the South, whether you’re talking about
the North, whether you’re talking about an Indian reservation,
or you’re talking about the east side of Siler City,
you can take any ethnicity, any racial group of people, and
you’re going to see the same issues, because it’s
part of the human condition.
Brown:
Thank you. It’s very provocative, this series. We’re
looking forward to it and it’s important and we thank
you for. I’d like to thank John Valadez and Malinda
Campbell for talking with us about Matters of Race.
If you’d like to learn more about the Matters of
Race series or about the work of our two guests, please
visit the Black Issues Forum website at www.unctv.org/bif.
We’d also like to hear your feedback and suggestions,
so send us an e-mail, or you can call the BIF line at (919)
549-7167. Be sure to join Black Issues Forum each Friday
night at 9:30. I’m Natalie Bullock Brown, reminding
you to be encouraged, no matter what. Good night.
[THEME
MUSIC]
Voiceover:
This program was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV
from viewers like you. Thank you.
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