2003-2004 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts
Episode #1910
The Shortage of African-American Men in the Teaching Profession

Lewis: Mitchell Lewis, host
Mackie: Dr. Claudie Mackie, Associate Vice-Chancellor for Academic Affairs, External Affairs, Elizabeth City State University
Williams: Lynwood Williams, Assistant Superintendent, Pasquotank County Schools

Lewis: Good evening everyone and welcome to this edition of Black Issues Forum. I’m Mitchell Lewis. Our topic tonight deals with the shortage of African-American men in the teaching profession. Joining me tonight we have two very special guests. The first guest is Dr. Claudie Mackie, Associate Vice-Chancellor for Academic Affairs, External Affairs at Elizabeth City State University and Mr. Lynwood Williams, Assistant Superintendent of Pasquotank County Schools. And gentlemen, welcome to Black Issues Forum. Dr Mackie, I’ll begin with you. Just how bad is the shortage of African-American men in the teaching profession?

Mackie: Well Mitch, I think if you look at the national data, 85 to 90 percent of the teaching profession is middle-class white women. If you look at that other 12 to 15 percent of teachers, your pool of possibility lessens. When you look at the number of African-American males it’s probably about three percent at best guess. The danger is when you look at the graduates of the 60s and 70s, when they are gone there are no more to replace them. And that’s the fear that I have, that at the end of the next five to ten years when retirement becomes a reality and that group has retired and we are currently failing to produce minority males, we don’t have any in our schools.

Lewis: Now Mr. Williams, what are you seeing in Pasquotank County?

Williams: There is a shortage. There is a serious shortage of black males in K-5 schools, in middle school as well as high school. We have more minorities in high schools but the numbers for middle school and high school are very low.

Lewis: Now Dr. Mackie, you have been looking at this issue quite a bit, especially at Elizabeth City State University. And you recently put on a minority male summit. Now what was the purpose of that summit?

Mackie: Well one, to help bring attention to the problem. I think most people are just as I was before I looked at the problem. Elizabeth City State University historically is a teacher training institution. I assumed because such, we were producing men. The truth of the of the matter is that for ten years, for a ten-year period we produced less than 10 minority males in teacher education. And as I started to look at what was happening at other institutions it became real that we weren’t producing minority males. We just weren’t producing them and so my immediate reaction was, “Well, what can be done?” I got involved in a project that we hopefully will address that shortage. If you care, I would talk it about it now because…

Lewis: Go ahead!

Mackie: I’d like to share with others that James and Connie Maynard of the Golden Corral food chain gave me some hope back in January of last year. They shared with me some start-up money to start a project that we called the Maynard Outreach Project. This project is designed to identify young African-American males at the high school level, recruit them, bring them to our campus, prepare them and return them back to their respective communities. We have had the project in place for two years. And of course before school opens their freshman year, we bring them to the campus for four weeks. And we work directly with reading, writing and arithmetic. And the reason being is that those are the three subject areas that govern pretty much all of the courses that they take. We are finding that that’s having a positive effect because we’ve seen an increase in grade performance and we’ve seen a difference in the attitude towards young men who want to now major in education. To go from some years none to now having 25 who’ve committed themselves, that’s a positive for us.

Lewis: Now in connection to the summit that you held, what were some of the things that were discussed there? What were some of the findings that came out of the summit?

Mackie: Recruitment, retention, testing and motivation and teacher preparation. That was the heart and soul of the discussions that went on. We had persons from across the state. And recruitment was a major piece. That concern was how do we involve the community at large in this recruitment process? One of the recommendations I think we can openly speak -- there was an awful lot of discussion around it – a mentoring program – where not waiting until a youngster is in the 10^th or 11^th grade. This process starts way back down in the 1^st, 2^nd and 3^rd grade, where we can start to take youngsters by the hand and just as we prepare them to be professional football players or professional basketball players, the mindset that we start early, start preparing them to think education. Start to prepare them to think teaching. Of course in that mentoring process there’s a need for volunteers. It’s going to be the retired teacher back in the community who will take a youngster and spend a day with him. It’s going to mean the church being a center now where those youngsters can come and get that mentoring that may just center around having a male or a strong person that they can come and share with. Starting early positions that youngster now where he can have successes at each of those levels as he progresses through our system of instruction.

Williams: Role models!

Lewis: Now you were in stereo there with Dr. Mackie, the early parts. As being an educator, why is it so important, especially, say, in Pasquotank County, that some of the items that were discussed in the summit, that they come into fruition. Why is that important?

Williams: What’s so important about it is that with school improvement making major decisions in the direction for a system, it’s just so important to have all of the community, whether it’s the black community, white community, black male teachers, white teachers, white females, black females, to come to the table of improvement to bring those creative ideas representing all parts of the segment of the community. I think it’s important to have the cultures coming together to be able to make major decisions on our direction in education. Because truly we are --- under the ABC’s and No Child Left Behind, it’s important that we begin to set the stage for our success of all people.

Lewis: Dr. Mackie, what contributions can African-American males or minorities in general make to the classroom?

Mackie: I like to use the word diversity. We’re often judged and evaluated based on some diversity standard. But as I pointed out at the very beginning, that if you now have a majority female white classroom of teachers and we are acknowledging that under the current pattern we have a disappearance of African-American male teachers. You’re not having a diverse population that is an example of the greater community. Lynwood mentioned a few minutes ago that in Pasquotank County that school system is predominately minority, 51%. However when you look at the current teaching population there are 26 African-American males in that school system.

Lewis: And what impact is that having in Pasquotank County? Why is it important to have culturally diverse teachers in the classroom?

Mackie: It just makes common sense to have all parties represented. It just makes a good school system making major decisions, bringing that culture to the classroom. There’s an out-and-out push in Elizabeth City-Pasquotank County Schools to recruit black male teachers to the profession and also retain them. It’s just as important to us to recruit them as also to retain them by having support systems. One of the strategies for Elizabeth City Schools is now to start teacher cadet programs in our high school.

Lewis: Now is it more difficult, and this may seem like a semi-loaded question here but is it more difficult to retain minority teachers than it is other ethnic groups?

Mackie: Well, I do the recruiting for Elizabeth City Schools along with two other individuals but I’m responsible for doing most of it. And when we go out to the different locations in the universities and colleges, we might see 110 students during a group meeting that want to be teachers. And there might be five minorities as a part of that. So the black males are not there for us to even recruit. That’s the problem; we need to plant those seeds for young men to be going into the profession.

Williams: And see, we all have some thoughts about why we think they’re there.

Mackie: Right.

Williams: I’ve heard folks say that they’re in jail, that they can’t pass the tests, that they don’t want to go to college. Well, the last two years we found 25 youngsters with 1,000 and 1,100 and 1,200 SATs in northeastern North Carolina. They’re there. It’s going to change – there has to be a mindset change at how our teacher training institutions attack the problem. There’s gong to have to be a mindset at how our local school districts attack the problem. I don’t know whether we’ve paid a lot of attention to train your own.

Mackie: Grow your own.

Williams: Grow your own. There are a lot of school districts that who have kids who would come back home if the proper incentives were there.

Mackie: I agree.

Williams: And so I think we’ve just got to really look at how we are going to attract those young people into the profession that we all agree is needed.

Lewis: Now you had mentioned testing. What is the problem with competency testing? Because, as you mentioned, there are some people who say that’s the reason why you cannot get minority male teachers in the classroom.

Mackie: Well, there are a couple of things. I work with test-taking skills through a young man by the name of Walt Jacobs who was the former director of the Education Testing Services in the Southeast Region of the United States. He comes through this region and runs workshops for us. And I’ve heard him say that you cannot remember what you’ve never learned. And I wanted that to settle in for a minute. Because when we look at our testing process it’s a compilation of three things. You’re going to do some reading, you’re going to do some writing, you’re going to do some arithmetic. If you have mastered those basic kinds of things, not memorized them but if you’ve learned those things then the tool for reading, the tool for writing, the tool for mathematics becomes applicable across the board. The process does not change. So one of the things that I’m seeing and recognizing is that we need to do a better job of doing just as it happens in some communities. We need to teach our youngsters how to take tests.

Williams: Just to go back a ways if I may, one of the other reasons that black males should be in that classroom is role models. We’d like to have them there – they are not there presently – because it’s very good for other individuals within the young mind of thinking, to see black males in the profession. And that might cause other ones to want to be in the profession. So we need to make sure that they’re there as role models also. So I need to add that to the other statement that I said.

Lewis: Now one other area that has been mentioned that the reason for the shortage is that there is a lack of input in decision making as far as African-American or minority groups are concerned as it relates to the classroom setting.

Mackie: You need to be at the table.

Williams: Sure.

Mackie: I mean I think if you look at this whole business of affirmative action. Many think that affirmative action was black and white. Affirmative action said that women ought to have the right to be heard, that women ought to have the right to have ownership, that women ought to have the right to be at the table. It says that in affirmative action that right should be there. Well I say the same thing about education. African-American males ought to be at the table. You have a major part of the public sector school system that are African-American male students. Why not have some African-American males as part of that decision force and that decision making process?

Lewis: Mr. Williams, any thoughts on that?

Williams: Yes. There’s a dire need for them to be there to help with the solutions to many of the problems that’s going on with education.

Mackie: It brings a different perspective. The African-American male at the table brings a different view from any other group.

Lewis: Now every now and then it always comes down to money. Has salary been an issue?

Mackie: Well see, I said this mentoring process that came out of the summit, that was one of the things that we talked about. Just as we condition youngsters to think being a fireman, being a police officer, being any of these other subject areas, for some reason we’ve been conditioned to move youngsters away from the teaching profession. When you look at what teachers make, I know a number of teachers and they have pretty nice homes, they drive pretty nice cars. They take pretty good trips and have off a major part of the summer. And in some cases for those who have gone on and gone to graduate school and involved themselves in other areas, they make pretty good money. And so I think it’s now one applies him or herself in the acquisition of that money. But see the teaching profession can’t be about money. It has to be about that deep desire to make a difference in the life of a child. Without that, you know we can do all programming and all the other things we want to do. If there’s not a deep desire within to make the difference in the life of a child, then we’re fighting a losing battle. So I think finding those people who are truly committed to the profession, in my opinion that’s a priority.

Lewis: Now Mr. Williams, and this is directed to both of you, now the move is on by the State at some point to try and attract people who don’t necessarily have a teaching degree, to go into the classroom. What type of impact do you think that will have on what we’re talking about today?

Williams: Well, if I may start with that, for 30 years there’s been such a shortage of teachers, whether they are black, white or whatever in the education profession. So a way of filling those slots is to use the lateral entry approach to individuals that’s gone to school and majored in math or science but not teaching majors. So we’re recruiting some of those into the profession to teach in the classrooms. However, under No Child Left Behind, now they’re simply saying to us that that will go away, that no longer after 2006 that we’ll be able to use those folks as classroom teachers. The statement under No Child Left Behind is that they must highly qualified. That simply means a clear license, passing all of the practice exams, one and two, to be able to teach our children. So it’s going to have a large impact on where go from here.

Lewis: Mr. Mackie, your thoughts?

Mackie: Well, that’s part of the initial statement that I made. If you look at the retirement and then you look at the effects of Nickel by, No Child Left Behind, where some institutions, some public school systems were able to bring youngsters into their system and give them five years to complete the requirements.

Williams: Coursework.

Mackie: Coursework. They then moved it to three years, which means that in 2006 that process will stop. Henceforth every youngster who comes into the system will have to have a clear license. That means he would have to have completed all of the coursework, passed all of the tests and met all of the State requirements. That’s the magnitude of this discussion that we’re having. One of the reasons I thought it was important for us to come together and talk about it was because with the coming of Nickel by we very well could have in northeastern North Carolina schools, the majority of the schools with no minority male teachers. That’s the magnitude of what we’re talking about. And we’re not that too distant. I did a study of all of the 23 schools – school districts in northeastern North Carolina that surrounds Elizabeth City State University. And as it is right now we have school districts with zero minority male teachers.

Lewis: Are there any particular areas or subjects that teachers are needed?

Williams: Math and science without a doubt.

Mackie: He would say math and science because he’s recruiting math and science. But I get that conversation from recruiters and personnel directors from public schools. Just find me a teacher who has a license. We’ll find a place to place them. There are a lot of reasons for that. I think when we look at meeting federal guidelines, state guidelines, that balance that we all say should be there, some school districts, based on where their monies are coming from, they are being driven to look at ways to meet that balance. And so when we look at what subject area, yeah, math and sciences is an area that’s national. It’s not just northeastern North Carolina. But I will say to you that there’s school districts who would love to have a physical educator, that would love to have a history educator, that would love to have, you know, technology – in all of those subject areas there is a need.

Lewis: And quickly, was there anything that was exciting or else promising that came out of the summit that you’d want folks to know about?

Mackie: You want to talk about it, Lynwood?

Williams: Partly. Yes, there was a group effort to have strategies, things that we could do to prepare for the future. I was excited about the partnership within the university and the communities around and just be given the opportunity to dialogue and bring up ideas of ways to help fix this problem because seriously, it is a problem and it’s not going to go away unless people in the profession see a need. And we also determined that it has to start with the leadership within the LEAs and the university.

Mackie: We had a hard time breaking up.

Williams: Yes.

Mackie: Time was on us and we had people driving six and seven hours away to be here. And so we were trying to be courteous for them but we had a had time breaking away because we got into the reality of not being selfish with what we came together and openly discussed. We’re going to take our recommendations and we’re going to offer those recommendations to the proper agencies: school boards, State boards, in-state, out-of-state, to politicians. We don’t care who receives it.

Lewis: Well, I hate to say this but I have to stop it right here. We could go on for a while. But gentlemen, thanks for being with us. And thank you so very much for watching. If you want more information about what you’ve seen or other programs, you can log on to our website at www.unctv.org/bif. This is Black Issues Forum. I’m Mitchell Lewis. Thanks for watching! Good night.