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2003-2004 Broadcast Season
Broadcast Program Transcripts
Episode #1915
Stripping the Color Line Part 1
Brown: Natalie Bullock Brown, host
Brown-Graham: Anita Brown-Graham, School of Government at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Thomas: Dr. Melvin E. Thomas, Department of Sociology and Anthropology at North Carolina State University
Elliot: Dr. Jeffery Elliot, Political Science at North Carolina Central University
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Voiceover: The following is a Black Issues Forum special presentation.
Brown: In a recent documentary, Dr. Henry Louis Gates traveled to four regions of black America to seek understanding about the color line in our nation. Tonight we ask North Carolina for their views for why and how the color line remains drawn. That is next on Black Issues Forum.
Voiceover: This program was made possible by contributions to UNC-TV from viewers like you. Thank you.
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Brown: Good evening, and welcome to Black Issues Forum. I'm Natalie Bullock Brown. In a provocative new documentary series entitled, America, Beyond the Color Line, historian and scholar Dr. Henry Louis Gates Jr. explores the question of race in America. Traveling throughout the country, he asks what has been the lasting impact of civil rights on African Americans? Is our society integrated? Has Dr. King's dream been realized? How close has America come as a nation to achieving equal opportunity for all? The answers to these questions will vary dramatically, depending on who you talk to. Tonight, we are talking to North Carolina scholars and experts to hopefully gain some understanding and insight into why, after years of legislation, programs, studies and talks of racial reconciliation, the answers are still so disparate. I'd like to welcome Anita Brown-Graham, an associate professor in the School of Government at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, where she specializes in affordable housing, community development and public liability. Dr. Jeffery Elliot, professor of political science at North Carolina Central University and a specialist in American politics and government, international relations and civil rights and civil liberties. And Dr. Melvin E. Thomas, associate professor in the Department of Sociology and Anthropology at North Carolina State University. Dr. Thomas is engaged in continuing research on racial inequality, poverty and stratification. Thanks and welcome to all of you.
Let's start off by just asking a very broad question. I'm gong to start with you Anita. The gains made by civil rights are, perhaps, obvious, but have there been some unexpected costs in terms of what the movement was expected to accomplish for blacks and the underclass?
Brown-Graham:I think so. Perhaps the most visual of those unexpected consequences has been the replacement of physical separation based on color with physical separation based on economics. So, if you look at housing patterns, for example, where African Americans were once congregated in certain areas of communities, you now find that there is a difference between where middle class and upper class African Americans live and where African Americans in the lower socioeconomic stratus are now located. Thereby leaving, what many consider to be, a hyper-segregation of both poverty and race in ways that manifest themselves in really problematic ways in our nation.
Brown: I see you shaking your head and you seem to be agreeing Dr. Thomas. You have a comment to follow that up with?
Thomas: I agree. The civil rights movement did accomplish a lot but it didn't finish the job. The job never was just to change some laws and have blacks be able to sit anywhere on a bus or go into restaurants. The goal was equality. That was a goal from the beginning but that goal was never accomplished. In a way, it was a victim of its own success. A lot of people think that these changes signify equality, but you have all these economic issues that really haven't been addressed significantly.
Brown: Dr. Elliot, what went wrong? Why haven't we achieved this sort of equality that perhaps our forefathers envisioned?
Elliot: Well, I'm not sure our forefathers envisioned it. To begin with, the ideals of America, liberty, equality, opportunity, acceptance of diversity-these are lofty principles but we've yet to achieve any of them in their fullness or complexity. I think the civil rights revolution led many to hope that what would result would be a dramatic transformation of American life-social, political and economic. But for millions and millions and millions of the underclass, there lives have remained, with some change, basically unaltered. You can still see in virtually every section of this city of Durham, third world conditions. People live in dilapidated housing, poor sanitation, inadequate public services. People who live in shanties, people who don't have air conditioning or heat. I think many people hope that this revolution would bring about greater economic parity. That didn't prove to be the case in a significant way for millions and millions and millions. Not just African Americans but poor people throughout this country.
Brown: It seems to me that if you look back 50 years ago and you look at the condition that African Americans, the large majority of African Americans lived under, so many of us are enjoying, you know, wonderful opportunities, wonderful abilities to live and do and be things that we couldn't have been 50 years ago. So, what has happened? Why are there so many people that have not been able to achieve this?
Elliot: I think there has been, of course, a dramatic increase in the black middle class. No one would deny that. Large numbers of people since this period of time, African Americans have moved into the American mainstream economically. But, corely, many have been left behind. Why that has happened? There are many reasons: a lack of leadership, a lack of national commitment, a lack of resources, a polarization, fear, prejudice, government neglect. But the real issue, to me, is that while we can lay claim to making progress and striking down legal barriers to segregation, opening up the doors to the educated, and increasing economic opportunity. There are far too many African Americans who remain at the bottom of the economic ladder who see little hope, who don't vote and don't vote because they see little difference in the candidates or little change coming in their own lives.
Brown: I just want to bring Anita into this because I've heard the term hyper-segregation. Is this is what is a part of the problem that Dr. Elliot is talking about?
Brown-Graham: That is a part of the problem.
Brown: Can you define it for us? I'm sorry.
Brown-Graham: Hyper-segregation really refers to high levels of concentrations, residential concentrations of people based on race and income. So typically you are talking about and environment that is predominantly, if not exclusively, African American and all of the people who live in that neighborhood are of lower socioeconomic status. What that typically means is, for a young child growing up in one of those neighborhoods, there are no role models of people who are going off to work everyday. You don't sort of see the connection to the middle class. So, not only do those people not have the visuals that would lead to the sort of hope that has been articulated here, but perhaps more importantly, you don't have the sort of networks in place where people come home and make a job referral to a friend or a person in the family. Where somebody can say, "I know about an educational opportunity that you might take advantage of." And so, people who are all similarly situated are congregated in an environment where none of them are in a position to help the others move out of that. I'd like to, if I could, pick up on one additional reason why we haven't see the mass transformation that was the promise of the civil rights movement. Because I think it is important to recognize that a part of the problem with the strategy was really predicated on the ability of laws to change the minds, the hearts, the circumstances of America. What laws can do, is, as you articulated, created some opportunity of access, but laws are never in a position to create equality of results. And so what has happened is the pipeline has been very narrow and there are some people who have been able to take advantage of the access created to have the sort of result that we've all dreamed about everybody having, but for the most part there is a logjam in that pipeline and lots of people can't find ways to take opportunities of the Equal Opportunity laws in housing, in education, in employment and the list goes on and on.
Brown: Dr. Thomas, how does this jamming of this pipeline, I guess, damage the ability of people to, in your research, to their quality of life? How does it damage their quality of life and their ability to have, you know, an abundant life really?
Thomas: There is a lack of economic opportunity that just influences every aspect of life. Even for the black middle class, the black middle class isn't doing as well as the white middle class so they are also experiencing this racial disparity, even though, you know, they are much better off than the so-called black underclass. They still aren't getting their fair share.
Brown: Let me ask you this. So then is it a myth or sort of an illusion that the black middle class is-or that there are African Americans who are doing so well and in some ways are living on par with their white counterparts?
Thomas: Pretty much, because if you compare blacks and whites in terms of education and look at their incomes, yes, college educated blacks make a lot more money than non-college educated blacks. But when you compare them with college educated whites, the gap is actually greater.
Brown: Well, is this about racism Dr. Elliot? Is this why we still have these disparities?
Elliot: I think that this is about race and class and the two are inextricably linked. You can't separate race from class or class from race. We, in this country, have focused much more on race than on class for a wide variety of reasons. The reality is, as long as there are these deep economic disparities, based on race and ethnicity, we'll never achieve true equality or parity. And make no mistake, in my view hate is alive everywhere in America. Every study we see, whether it is Klan Watch, or public opinion polls, etcetera, indicate that, as she suggests, we've made great progress in passing laws and striking down legal barriers to participation, bigotry prejudice and hatred of all kinds are alive in every section of this country, North, South, East and West. It is directed not only at African Americans but Asians, Jews, Catholics, immigrants, gays and lesbians. So, we ought not take too much pride in the fact that we have made progress. Yes, we have made progress, important progress, but we have a very long way to go.
Brown: Well, Anita, do you think that our government is responsible for making the playing field level for all or are all supposed to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps?
Brown-Graham: I think government bears a huge responsibility in leveling the playing field. By its very definition, government is about creating a safety net and making sure that nobody falls beyond that safety net. I do think that it would be difficult to argue that there are not people who have fallen beyond the safety net that all of us would be comfortable with.
Brown: And is that government's fault?
Brown-Graham: I don't know that it is government's fault that they've fallen. My point, though, is that government ought to do something about making sure that they are picked up. I do think it is important to recognize, though, that the strength of government is really determined by the individual and collective will of a people. And so we often talk about the government as though it is some entity out there, not recognizing that, in a representative democracy, the government is us. It is what we say we think ought to be the conscious of this nation that determines how our government responds to the needs of those people who are falling below the safety net.
Brown: Dr. Thomas how do we as a society, then, use our collective will to make the sort of changes that Anita is suggesting we are able to make as a democracy?
Thomas: The first thing you have to do is recognize that there is a problem, because there is a common perception that the battle is already won. We were successful, we've done this, we got the Civil Rights Act and we've got these laws, legal segregation is no longer with us. So, the first thing that we have to realize is that there is a problem. That problem is built into our institutions and how they operate on a day-to-day basis. Until we, as a nation, can really see that.
Brown: Is that just black, white? Are all of us under the impression that we don't have that much work to do or is it just certain sectors?
Thomas: It tends to be amongst whites. You'll find that. They tend to feel that everything is all right. You know, we saw the race problem back in the '60s. African Americans are less likely to believe that, though some do. There is really a lack of education about the nature of racial inequality, or even that it exists. I teach race to NC State and a lot of students don't understand the extent of racial inequality. When they see the statistics they are shocked, because from their point of view, everything is fine. Blacks and whites are sitting in the classroom together and on the surface everything seems to be all right. But, there is a deep, deep racial divide that is measurable. We have to become aware that there was a problem. In the '60s it was easy to see that there was a problem. It was in your face. Now, it is more invisible. We have to see it. Once we see it, then we can come up with a strategy to attack it.
Brown: Well, Dr. Elliot, what does racial equality look like?
Elliot: It is hard to say because we've yet to achieve it. We can certainly say what it isn't. I just want to comment briefly on the comment he just made, you know, many people don't see the problem. The fact is, the problem for most of us, is very clear. We only need look to Washington and the White House and to President Bush and to the Republican-controlled Congress and to the Republican-dominated Supreme Court and to recent appointees to the federal bench to see the kinds of people that are being elected to public office, the kinds of laws that they are passing. And clearly when we look at these past several years under this administration, what we see is clear evidence of class warfare. We see a direct assault on fundamental civil and human rights. We see an administration that is basically callous when it comes to the needs of the poor, the powerless and the dispossessed. The problem to me is very clear. It is in the White House, it is in the Congress, it is in the courts. Since these are the policy makers we elect, if we hope for any meaningful change, then we have to change those who make those laws that bind all of us. This is an extremely important election which is coming up, for the control of the Supreme Court of the United States, with several possible retirees. Major court decisions like Roe v. Wade and others could be fundamentally altered for years to come, depending upon who is elected president. Finally, we talk about segregation and desegregation. I wouldn't argue that there has ever really been desegregation. Some use the term, "resegregation," now, in fact. Though some people have said, "Why would you use that term because there was never real desegregation." The fact is that you can drive through any community and based on race, ethnicity and culture, you can look at where people live and you can see that certain sections of the city are dominated by people that are brown skinned, black skinned, white skinned and then new immigrants. So, these problems are deep. The problems should be obvious. Just drive through the city of Durham from the richest section of the community to the Holloway-Fayetteville-Alston area here near North Carolina Central University. No one needs to take a helicopter across the city to see that race and racism are evident everywhere.
Brown: Anita, let me ask you this in light of what Dr. Elliot just said, with regard to race, politics and economics, which do you think is the primary force behind social disenfranchisement?
Brown-Graham: I think it is important to recognize and I want to echo what I heard him say earlier was that it is very difficult to draw a line of demarcation between race and economics. The two are so inextricably intertwined that it is almost impossible to talk about one without recognizing the overlap of the other. I do want to take issue, a bit, though with something else that he said in responding to your question. I think it is not so simple as to be able to point to a particular administration, either the executive or legislative branch and lay at their feet the consequences of decades of failed experimentation at racial reconciliation. We've been talking about this now for 40 years and haven't made the progress that anyone thinks is acceptable based on the promise made 40 years ago and I think we all need to take some ownership in that. One of the things that strikes me as being very different about the way we have the conversation today, with respect to the way we had it 40 years ago, was 40 years ago there was a real emphasis on building coalitions across racial and class lines. So, I agree with you. I do think that we are somehow governed by a middle class that is necessarily fairly self-centered about what its needs are. What we haven't done a good job of is articulating to that middle class why the plight of this underclass is so important to their well-being. That is an art of persuasion that we somehow figured out to do in the '60s but have lost in 2000.
Brown: Why do you think we've lost that?
Brown-Graham: I'm not sure. I'm not sure. My sense is that we somehow have decided that the divide is so great that we can't quite figure out what the connections are, how it is that you say to the middle class parent, you talk about resegregation, that it is important for that child to be in school with children who are of different economics. It is important for both of them. Not just making the argument that it is not good for us to have schools that are with 70% of students at or below reduced lunch, it is not just about making the world better for those kids, it is about saying to the middle class parents, "You know what? Your child is going to be better prepared to compete in a global marketplace if your child has the sort of social exposures that come from being around people who are different." We don't make that argument anymore and I think we need to figure out ways to do it.
Brown: Dr. Thomas, you said earlier that your students were shocked to even hear that racial inequality still exists. Have you ever asked them what they think needs to be done now and if you haven't asked them, what do you think they would say?
Thomas: According to attitude surveys, most whites believe that the racial problems are due to black's and minorities' lack of will. So, just simply looking at the problem and seeing the great disparities, they aren't convinced by that. They see it as, well, they just need to pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.
Brown: How do you get your students, and I guess you said white people in general feel this way, or your white students in particular. How do you get your class to understand that it is more than that?
Thomas: You've got to talk about the mechanisms behind discrimination. How does it work? One of the myths is that discrimination is the product of bigots-the Archie Bunker idea. So, it is just these bigoted white people. We could just get rid of them, or let them grow old and die, then everything is going to be all right. So, we talk about how it is built into the educational system, the employment sector, housing and it is not just a bad people, bad individuals, it is a bad system that reproduces inequality. So, once we understand the mechanisms that reproduce inequality then they can say, "Okay. Oh, I see." Now, we can think about, "How can we change it? How can we do things a different way?"
Brown: Is that a difficult challenge? I mean, to explain the mechanisms, that seems to be a tall order.
Thomas: Oh yes, it is a challenge. I've got students thinking there is very little problem, then I have students, "Oh it is just the bigots over here, just these ignorant people, everything is all right." So, it is a journey.
Brown: Dr. Elliot, what do you think your students would say?
Elliot: I don't think any of them would be surprised-because the student population is overwhelmingly African American-that these problems exist. There would be differences in terms of why these problems persist. I think more and more they understand that racism is not an affliction of any one group of people or bigotry or prejudice. We're seeing a tremendous amount of bigoted attitudes towards Hispanics, Native Americans, Asians, voiced by African Americans as well as white people. No one holds a monopoly on virtue in this regard. These stereotypes grip all of the groups that we are talking about. I think one thing that many students are very quick to bring up is, they look at a city like Durham, with an African American mayor, an African American majority on the City Council, and African American city manager, the county commissioners, majority African American and an African American police chief. They ask, "Why is it, where African Americans, although numerically a minority in the city, dominate these major posts of government, why hasn't there been fundamental change?"
Brown: I'm going to have to cut in right here and thank all of you. Believe it or not we are out of time. If you'd like to get in touch with our guests or obtain a copy or a transcript of tonight's show, visit us online at www.unc.org/bif. When you visit, be sure to give us your comments and program suggestions. You can also call us on the BIF line at 919-549-7167. Join us each and every Friday night at 9:30 p.m. for more stimulating discussion. For Black Issues Forum, I'm Natalie Bullock Brown, reminding you to be encouraged, no matter what. Good night.
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